Ep 280 | National Adoption Month with Cam Lee Small

Narrator
You are listening to the Be the Bridge Podcast with Latasha Morrison.

Latasha Morrison
[intro] How are you guys doing today? It’s exciting!

Narrator
Each week, Be the Bridge Podcast tackles subjects related to race and culture with the goal of bringing understanding.

Latasha Morrison
[intro] …but I’m gonna do it in the spirit of love.

Narrator
We believe understanding can move us toward racial healing, racial equity, and racial unity. Latasha Morrison is the founder of Be the Bridge, which is an organization responding to racial brokenness and systemic injustice in our world. This podcast is an extension of our vision to make sure people are no longer conditioned by a racialized society but grounded in truth. If you have not hit the subscribe button, please do so now. Without further ado, let’s begin today’s podcast. Oh, and stick around for some important information at the end.

Latasha Morrison
Well Be the Bridge community I am so excited, like I always say, I’m always excited to have another extraordinary guest to bring before the Be the Bridge community. He’s someone that has worked with Be the Bridge in the past in helping create our TRA, which is our transracial adoption resources that we have that we do through Be the Bridge. Because a lot of our community, those of you who are listening, either you have adopted transracially, and then we have a lot of people who are adoptees of that are a part of the community that we have here. And so our very own Jade is a part of that and so many others. And so we have Cam Lee Small. Cam’s personal experience as an international adoptee from Korea informs and inspires his current professional work. So he is someone that was an adoptee from Korea and his professional work now aligns with his experience. He formed his own private practice called Therapy Redeemed in 2018. And so if you’re not following him on there, I follow him on there. I learned a lot by following him and listening to what he’s saying. And he started this to raise awareness and respond to the mental health needs of adoptees and their families wherever they may be in their own adoption journey. His vision for adoptee centered advocacy is evident through his one on one counseling services. So he does live workshops, support groups, Masterclass trainings. And he is active in content creation, collaboration, like he’s done with Be the Bridge, in and through various media platforms. His work has been featured in Christianity Today, the National Council for Adoption, University of Minnesota School of Social Work, and the Center of Adoption Support and Education. He is currently working on a manuscript for an upcoming book released through InterVarsity Press. Cam brings value and much needed perspective to the adoption community, particularly for adoptees and their families. And what we try to do here at Be the Bridge is we want to center the voices of adoptees, just like when we talk about in any work that we’re doing, just work, the work of righteousness, you want to center those who have been impacted and even sometimes harmed by those, we want to lift those voices up. And we at Be the Bridge, we’re all about lifting up the voices of those that have been marginalized, that we haven’t heard a lot from. We hear a lot from parents who have adopted, but a lot of times not from the adoptees. And there’s a story there. And sometimes you don’t find your voice until you’re a little older. But Cam is about the work of equipping parents and adoptees in how to have a healthier relationship in this adoptive world. So we’re so grateful for you, for your voice. I know this isn’t easy. You know? I know this comes with a cost from you in doing this. And so can you share a little bit with our community, the things that I, you know, we could read the bio, but just some things that I missed that you would want our community to know about you. And then I want to actually talk a little bit about your trip to China and Korea. And I actually will talk a little bit because I just went to Korea too for the first time. And so we can talk a little bit about that. So let our community know, you know, beyond your bio, who is Cam and why are you here? And why are you invested in this work?

Cam Lee Small
Thank you so much for having me here, Latasha. Um, yeah, the bio, we mentioned a lot. And that question, who am I? Why am I here? Like right now, like when you are saying, “how can we center those who’ve been most impacted by adoption?” Or “how can we bring adoptees into the conversation?” That’s really what I’m hoping to do. And I know that listeners right now, are walking that journey of adoptee themselves or caring for an adoptee or someone navigating permanency or relinquishment or transitional care in some ways. So we’ve got parents, we’ve got adoptees, right now listening. I wanted to, through Therapy Redeemed, make spaces for us to learn and grow together. That’s really what I’m about. My training, professional training is in mental health. Counseling Psychology. And as a practitioner, as a clinician, that’s what I do. So it’s a mixture of one on one counseling services, live workshops, speaking engagements, I do group trainings. Last year, I had the privilege of hosting a 12 month monthly support group for adult BIPOC adoptees. That was incredible. And just being able to hop online and talk and share stories together. And I think that’s where right now, our communities are really paving the way forward. Yes, standing on the shoulders of giants, and saying how can we create spaces where adoptees get to speak and share their stories and grow together and collaborate, co create what does activism look like right now in the year 2023 and beyond? And how do we recognize the historical legacies that are currently unfolding, that we also have to navigate and make sense of and endure together? So that’s kind of like my entry point into this work. With y’all, I mean, I was just remembering the Be the Bridge discussion cards. That was great. You know, being able to introduce that to some families that I’m working with, even adoptees. What a great way to say, “Hey, we love God, we want to honor Christ, we want to find out how do we show Jesus to the world and we can still talk about race and ethnicity and social justice. It doesn’t Have to be this taboo topic. In fact, we might honor God through it. Wouldn’t that be awesome?” Right? So that’s where I’m at here through Therapy Redeemed. And as an adult adoptee myself – born in Korea. My father died when I was about three years old, placed into foster care, two foster placements, actually. And then when I was about three and a half, placed for adoption into a white family in Wisconsin. Very different from Busan, South Korea. Nekoosa, Wisconsin. And it’s been a journey from that point to sitting here with you, Latasha, and I’m happy to talk through any pieces of that with you.

Latasha Morrison
And you said you were born in Busan?

Cam Lee Small
Yes.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah, I had an opportunity to visit your birthplace when I was in Korea back in October. So beautiful place. Got to stay right there. Yeah, near the Haeundae Beach beach right there.

Cam Lee Small
The beach. Yes.

Latasha Morrison
It’s beautiful right there. Just a beautiful country. Like, you know, the country doesn’t look like what has been through. You know? And so much, so much there. And I think, you know, Cam, I came into this work, you know, being in the coming out of the faith community, being on staff at different churches, getting questions from parents, especially as they’re raising transracial adoptees. I was just only, I could speak my perspective. I’m not a adoptive. So I didn’t have that full perspective. But some of the things that I was meeting a lot of people who have adopted actually from China and also from different countries in Africa, and having this conversation that kind of led into a lot of the work with Be the Bridge. Because so many people that were a part of our first group, their entry point into this conversation was because they had adoptive children their eyes had been awakened to some of the injustices and some of the biases, you know, implicit and explicit biases that were happening to their children. Things that they were seeing, conversations that they were entering into, things within their own family. You know, one of my friends told me about just a trip to Costco where all the kids were getting the little samples that they get. And her children, she sent her kids up there to get the samples. And they were given them the samples. But when her adoptive child went to get the sample, the lady said, “No, you can’t have any. Where’s your parent?” And, she witnessed that and time and time again, where they’re in a space, and can be a little ambiguous sometimes, because sometimes people don’t know who that child belongs to. And so, like, trying to make sure that as a parent, a lot of times people who are entering into this conversation, they want to be equipped to make sure that they’re not explaining away these biases that are happening. They can relate and they can speak life into their children and understand. And we know that’s a larger conversation in that, like you were saying that you were born, and then you were adopted in Wisconsin. And so when I think about Wisconsin, I don’t think about a lot of people that look like you. You know? And, you know, and I’m just seeing how having this story and creating some brave spaces to challenge people and to have some honest conversations, and to have you, and like you and Jade, to really talk about your experiences and to try to give advice or try to give direction and create pathways for parents to say, “Maybe I need to do this a little different. Maybe I need to have this conversation different because this is how this conversation could be landing with that.” And so I know you talk about your trip. And after returning you shared something. You said your daughter, Cara. And you said, “She said that I wish you can cut me in half. Half of me stay here and the other half you can take to America. She’s almost five. And I think she’s onto something.” Can you talk about the beauty and the tension of feeling connected in two different places? And what was your experience like going to visit what I would deem as your motherland in a sense? I guess I’m assuming that was this the first time since you were three or have you been back before? Did your parents take you back?

Cam Lee Small
I was back for the first time in Korea in 2012.

Latasha Morrison
Okay.

Cam Lee Small
Excuse me the winter of like 2011, 2012. And that was to meet my birth mom for the first time since relinquishment. Now, since then. So my spouse was born in Nanjing. And he met on campus at UW Madison. And we’re part of a local church community there. And so our daughter, she loves to FaceTime or Wechat video with Gonggong, Popo, and my spouse’s parents and family there, cousins and everything. And because of the distance, like logistically, we can only visit maybe once every few years or so. So she was there in 2019, actually, right before COVID kind of became this official pandemic piece. And then since then, you know, we’ve been here in the Twin Cities. So we went kind of on a quest to say, how can we spend some extended time with our family? With our children’s family? Where they can meet aunts and uncles, grandma, grandpa, in China, those who we’re connected to my spouse’s family. And then kind of on a parallel process. I was in contact with my adoption agency to visit my mom again, hopefully, to let her and maybe others know, Hey, you know, you’ve got grandchildren. It would be great for us to meet, you know, if you’re willing. We’ll be in the area, this date for this amount of time. What can we do?” So the agency had me kind of submit all this paperwork. They got a hold of my uncle after some time and finally kind of a call back and forth. Unfortunately, we weren’t able to meet with them at this particular time. And slash but Cara and Kyrie so five years old and two years old, they were able to experience China and then Korea. So we’re there for four months total. But most of the time was spent in Nanjing, but that last about a week and a half was in Seoul and Busan. So that chunk of time, especially for Cara in her life, because so this is, you know, December 2022. We hop on the plane and get there we go through a couple of weeks of quarantine, nose swabs, mouth swabs, stay at a hotel. And then finally, we get to be there at the apartment and we’re staying with my my inlaws. And she was able to attend school locally there. Just immersion. Right? And she loved it. Like the teachers were so kind and she fit right in. She’s making friends. I pick her up on the moped every day and she’s yelling to every friend, “Bye!” And they’re saying bye to her. And they’re saying, “There’s Cara’s dad!” And honking the horns. It’s just very lovely. And spending time with cousins, meeting extended family members, eating food together, all sorts of stuff. And by the end of the time, I think for her, she just felt like home. And she’s walking out everywhere. I mean, I didn’t know that she was going to be so comfortable. She just kind of marches right out to talk to people, waving. And that’s where I think she said, I mean, at the end, just “Gosh, part of me really loves this place. I feel safe here. I love it here. I’m loved here. So much connection. It’s fun. And, okay, maybe when we get back to the states, I’ve got my friends at school. I’ve got family here, too.” It’s just a both and. You know? Five years old trying to put a word or a name to that. That’s where we’re at.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah, yeah. I think it’s so funny, because I think I could relate to her saying that she felt safe there. Because even as an African American going there, I felt safe for some reason. Like, you know, I can’t explain it. But I felt safe there. Of course, I stood out like a sore thumb. (laughter) I was very recognizable walking through the streets. But I could imagine, I was thinking I was there with my best friend and her family who she’s biracial. She’s Korean and African American. But her mom is Korean. And her mom, you know, I was just watching her as she was, you know, she hadn’t been to the city probably in several years and just watching her. And I was like, “Wow, like, it’s something to be in a space where people that you identify with people, they look like you. She could speak her native language and not feel any shame about it.” So I know that experience, even for your daughter, probably being in the class where, you know, everyone, you know, favors her, there’s there’s some commonalities that’s really attractive for that. And so, I do know, I don’t know like a lot of the story of the adoption in Korea, but I know a lot of that has been caused by like historically, like poverty and the Korean War and all of those things. I have another friend that was adopted from Korea, and she hasn’t had the opportunity to find her adoptive parents, I mean, her birth parents. Hopefully, they’re still alive. And, you know, I pray that for her one day, similar to yourself. What are some things that, you know, as those who are listening, who are a part of this community that have children that they’ve adopted, what would you say about making sure that they visit or interact in the community that they come from? You know, from ethnically? What would you say about that? Would that have helped you growing up more?

Cam Lee Small
There are a few thoughts that come to my mind with that question. I’ve maybe repeated these over the course of the past few years. But some of the main ideas, the first one is this idea that I was a son before I was adopted. And there’s a lot to unpack in that statement. But what I mean here, in the context of our conversation Latasha is, should our heritage and cultural legacies disappear with adoption? Is that the end of story? “I sign the papers and that’s your life back then over there, them. Now you’re with us, you were ours the moment we saw you. Our family is complete.” When I say something like I was a son before I was adopted, or, you know, we had a life before, it allows space for adoptees to wonder about that life and our connections to it, about those people and our connections to it, and have potentials beyond the stereotypes that we are exposed to here in the States growing up as children. I remember the idea that, “Asia or Asian people, kind of dirty, foreign, broken English, we make jokes about them on TV, the radio, the neighbors at school. I don’t really want to be a part of that, if anything, I’ll join in the jokes and in the laughter.” But that’s because I didn’t have a sense of ownership or I didn’t feel safe saying, “Well I’m part of that community actually. I have a pretty deep connection to it.” I didn’t have the capacity at that point as a kid, like kindergarten, elementary school, to really receive that as part of my lot in life. It took me a while meaning mentors and all of this stuff. But that’s where parents can say, “Well, how can I preserve some of that? I don’t want to be the reason the child’s culture disappears. I don’t want to adopt a child and disregard the culture.” Right? How can we preserve some of that in realistic, tangible, like, real time ways, here and now and throughout their life. So that’s like the principle behind a lot of the practices that we’re seeing. Have like access to immersion experiences, education about the culture, that they can actually experience people that represent pieces and segments from the values and the beliefs and the practices. Not just, “Let’s go to a Chinese restaurant on your birthday.”

Latasha Morrison
Right.

Cam Lee Small
And how can we connect them to images and realities that help them feel and see God’s glory, through their birth culture too? Not just American culture, the way it’s represented, maybe in the white evangelical church, but God’s glory is able to be there in Korea, too. In China, too. Wherever. Right? So that that’s what I mean about giving children access to that possibility in ways that fit your context right now in life.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah, God is at work in Korea, God is at work in China, God is at work in Brazil. Who we are, who they are, make up the whole, the totality of who God is. And so when we see it anyway different, that’s a lot of work that we have to do personally. And that’s one of the things I tell people, it’s like, you know, this work can’t start when you adopt. Like the work has to start prior to that. Like your child that you’re adopting can’t be your first Korean friend or your first Chinese friend or your first Rwandan friend. You should have friends that can connect, you know, and that you can understand and learn from and maybe immerse yourself in the culture. If this is something that you’re doing. I know, one of the things that, you know, how we even talk about adoption is, you know, is like, the church, I heard you mention that in what you were just saying. Just as your daughter shared something that she, what would be your wish for the church here in America to either know or do differently as it relates to adoption? Because like, for me, a lot of this conversation started within the church. And I will tell you this one conversation that I will never forget. And I don’t, you know, honestly, I don’t even know if I said the right thing. I don’t even know if they were asking me a question. I think they were telling me. But I was with a group of people and this one pastor he was about to adopt and they were adopting from Ghana. And, you know, he was just talking to me about some different things, some suggestions, and you know, different things like that. And, you know, I was telling him to, “You want to connect with the Ghanaian community where he’s from. Where do you live?” Because the first thing I’m thinking is like, “Okay, would you take a white child and put them in an all Black environment?” You know? And if you wouldn’t do that with your white child, think about doing that with the child that you’re adopting. You know? And so, you know, having this conversation and I will never forget, they said, one of the other pastors was like, “Well, he can’t really show them how to be from Ghana, he can’t show them how to be Ghanaian. But he can connect them to the African American community. Like, you know, they’re not gonna go to Ghana again.” You know, it was like this complete erasure of that child’s history. And I was like, for me it struck because I’m like, as an African American, if you understand our story here in this country through the transatlantic slave trade, like that was removed from us, that was taken from us, knowing history and place and culture and language. And so you have a child that you know exactly where they come from, you know their full name, all these things about them, and to completely remove that is just such a disservice to that child. I would long to know, like, where exactly which tribe my ancestors came from. You know, what village, what language they spoke, you know, besides saying, “Oh, we’re from West Africa, somewhere in this region. And you’re probably Yoruba, but then there’s so many things in that.” And so, what would you say to a family that’s thinking about that and this erasure that you just mentioned as they’re contemplating adopting from internationally.

Cam Lee Small
The idea of exchanging truth for a lie comes up for me when I think about this threat, because if we put all our eggs in one basket of “love is enough,” or “we don’t see color” we’re really going to shortchange these children who are trying to make sense of it. Because, yes, we’ve got this idea that trauma is stored in the body. Body Keeps the Score, right, like that book title. I mean, you can tell a child, “Hey, you’re one of us now. We’re gonna raise you as if you’re our own. There’s no difference between adoption and biological children.” You can tell a child that, but what you’re talking about Latasha is, “Okay, well, we’ve got a child internationally, and we’re bringing them into this, let’s just say predominantly white space. They’re gonna go to school, the teachers are white, leadership, all of that.” And I’m not saying there’s something wrong with white people, but you’re talking about like whiteness, and just these historical, relational dynamics of power that are unjust. That child knows something, but they can’t quite put their finger on it. They know that sometimes when they walk through the hallway at school, there’s a feeling of loneliness or isolation or embarrassment or maybe even shame. And they know that maybe sometimes having to navigate that for 5, 6, 7 hours a day, Monday through Friday, for the semester, for the school year, it gets tiring after a while. But maybe they get really good at performing. “I can fit right in with you all if I talk the way you do, dress the way you do. I’m like you all now.” What we’re asking, though, is, if there are ways for me to honor that piece of my cultural background and worship God with it, why wouldn’t I want to explore that? The capacity to worship in this particular body as I pass through the halls of school as an Asian American person, walking down the street, even being able to connect with other people in certain ways. I mean, that’s, that’s a prayer that I have for myself, my children, our community and the adoptee community. “Love is enough,” probably won’t get us there as quick as the other one. With the other one, I mean, conversations, racial inculcation, the ability to have dialogue about race, ethnicity, culture, background. “Love is enough” might not get us there. Why? Because we’ve placed too much emphasis on the sole act of adoption. “You’re in our family now. We signed the papers. You’re here. You’ve got food, you got roof over your head, and we love you.” That’s great. I’m not doubting anyone’s love. We’re saying that maybe there are specific ways that you can extend and practice love with this child who has a person specific lived experience as they walk to the bus stop, walk to the grocery store, pass neighbors, in classrooms, in the workplace. Maybe there are ways to equip them to have language for “Oh, that’s why I felt like that when someone touched my hair.” “That’s why I feel like this every day when someone asks me where I’m from, where I’m really from.” Or “have to give an account of my origin story on the spot. I’m just trying to get some candy here at the store, buddy. Can I just have that?” So we can give our children, children can receive access to support for that. But if love is enough, then that’s the kind of, I’m not saying that’s an easy out and like parents are maliciously trying not to do that. But we’re inviting parents to explore what could you do then? Yes, you love your child. And maybe we could connect them to a group that talks about this stuff. Maybe we could normalize mental health services. Maybe we could place value on post adoption check ins. Maybe we could even place value on pre adoption, education. Yes, there are requirements for that and like, what can we do so that this child doesn’t end up in this household that just happens not to see color? Right? So if we can’t see color, we can’t be bothered with activism related to race, power, all of these pieces. I love what you mentioned on the website, about I don’t know if it’s still there, racial reconciliation. Well, that’s an interesting word, because I think you mentioned reconciliation maybe infers it was once good and now we have to get back to it. I think you proposed like conciliation. Maybe for the first time ever adoptees can be given this sort of like default, “Hey, there are specific ways that we want to support you.” And maybe that’s happened for the first time ever. And I’m not the first one talking about this. There have been adoptee activists talking for generations. But what we’re saying is that, let’s look at that and listen. Exactly like what you’re saying, let’s center that. Let’s not have the adoptive parent be the first one to jump on stage and teach us about the adoptee journey. Let’s ask adoptees about that.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah, yeah. Because I think your experience, like you said, you know, now that you’re older, you have more language for what you’ve experienced and what could have been more beneficial, what could have helped improve your confidence, your self esteem, your learning experience. All of those things that you have words for now that an eight year old doesn’t have, and they’re not going to even say it probably because they don’t feel safe enough to say it. You know? We’ve talked to, I’ve talked to a 15 year old that was, you know, was afraid to talk about some of the concerns they were having, or things that they were experiencing at school with their parents, because it was going to make them angry. And they actually didn’t want their child around African American people, because they said that he was going to be distorted. I mean, there’s some stuff out there like and so the thing, you know, and what this child was doing was trying to become white. And the mental things that was happening, because he cannot be white. The world is not gonna see you as white. You may feel like that at home. But when you step outside of your parents, the things that every Black boy in this country, the conversations that parents have to have, it’s like, they’re gonna need to understand some of those things or you could be in danger in a lot of ways. So I mean, often, you know, the church, we talk about adoption being a gift or comparing it to the gospel. There are many ways that this is so harmful. You know, I’ve seen this. How would you like to see the church reframe this dialogue?

Cam Lee Small
I love that question. Because I don’t think enough churches are having that conversation. So that’s why I love the question. Because there are adoptees sitting in the pew right now wondering that same thing. But who are they going to ask? Because maybe they don’t know any other adoptees. If they ask their parents, “maybe I’m going to hurt their feelings. Maybe they don’t Have the skills to talk about it. Maybe they can’t handle this. There’s a split loyalty piece to that. And I want to maybe take care of my parents. Just kind of don’t rock the boat.” So, you know if leaders in the church, even parents in the church started to cultivate that sense of openness, that spirit of openness, than the adoptees in the congregation, in the body it’s an open call to say we can talk about this. Loss, grief, trauma, relationship dynamics at school, these questions. And if we’re equating God to the adoptive parents, and maybe even the adoptive parents culture, we’re in a real sticky situation, because what does that mean about my birth culture, then? Are we equating my birth culture with sin, are we equating my birth parents and people who look like them with sinful people that need to be rescued or restored or ministered to? But the ones who adopted me are the ones who are only allowed to do the ministering, they’re the only ones allowed that are deemed fit to parent. And that is a hard thing to wrap my mind around, because I’m connected to both. So if we gave children in the church access to that, and the caregivers as well, we could start to pursue that truth instead of the lie. The lie being, “I can’t wait to go back to this third world country and save them. Because thank God, I was brought to America. And now I can have this dream and live the way that the world ought to live.” Well, that’s kind of false teaching. Because America doesn’t have the copyright to this is how you should live. “Okay, do it this way, earn this amount of money, drive this car, talk like this, do that.” There are other ways to serve and honor God and love and honor our neighbor. Other ways to do that. So that’s why this question of equating the gospel to adoption is so important. Eternal separation from someone that I love, maybe that’s not heaven on earth. Maybe that’s setting me up to forget about my history completely and discount it, dismiss it as if it doesn’t matter at all, as if it doesn’t play a role in my life. It does play a role in my life. We’re learning to acknowledge that. I mean, I’ll even share my story. Just the journey to accepting myself as a Korean American person. You know, meeting a mentor and asking me questions about this, and really, you know, pulling me into a sense of honesty. “Ask yourself this question, Cam. Like, why don’t you want to hang around with Asian people? Like what’s wrong with Asian people?” Kind of getting to, “Oh, I learned that…” So if we can open up the possibilities that we are all needy recipients of God’s grace, and we all have room to grow, and God is making all things new and all nations, tongues, tribes are welcome in this, then I don’t Have to keep those people at a distance. Well, gosh, I can open my arms and embrace them. And doing that, for me personally, that was part of my self discovery and acceptance of who I am, as I walk through the world, and how can I love people who look like me if I’m just making jokes about them all the time, and believing the stereotypes. That it’s just really difficult to do. It’s like doing one thing with my left hand right hand. You know, it’s really hard. So that’s where, especially with birth family, birth parents, too, we’re opening up the conversation to say, adoption doesn’t mean we’ll take your child and see you later. That I don’t think represents the Christ that we read about in Scripture. And that’s where I think that the church right now, a lot of folks I see, and I’m so thankful for, are are asking, how can we do this then? Let’s find ways to do this differently and work together in service of that new kind of ministry.

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Latasha Morrison
Yeah, there are a lot of churches that are asking that question. Even adoption agencies are trying to do this better. Like sometimes when you know better, you do better. And then you know, then you have people that push back on any of this conversation. But I just, I think that shows you where they are spiritually. But, you know, we get a lot of stories because of just the nature of what we do in the work of racial literacy. This comes up a lot within our context, because we’re in the Christian, faith based context. And so, you know, I’ve seen it where, you know, when I told someone, “Are you willing to go to am Asian American church? Are you willing to take your family and go to a Korean church to immerse yourself and that child in that particular culture?” And, you know, the person was like, “Well, you know, but you know, I don’t know if my other kids. I don’t want my family to be going to different churches or anything.” And I’m like, “Wait a minute, but if you are going to a predominantly white church, are you going to send your other child to another church? Or like, your family is going to go together? And so if you feel like it’s okay for your family to go together in that predominately white church, then why isn’t it okay for your family to go together in an Asian American church where the pastor is, you know, hearing from God just like the other church?” So those are things and I think questions that people have to ask themselves. If that brings about discomfort to you it’s probably what you need to do. And I had a parent that was, she was actually going to an African America, predominately African American church as a white woman that had a few adopted children that were I think one was African American, one may have been adopted from Haiti, I’m not sure. But she said that she wanted her children to see African American leadership. And her entire family was going to this church, which was very multi ethnic, multicultural, but it had African American led senior pastor, which was key. You know? Not just African Americans going there, but seeing leadership every day. And her kids didn’t go to youth group, they stayed in there to hear this African American man preach every Sunday. And I love that. Is that something that you would recommend to families that have adopted? Is that something that you would recommend?

Cam Lee Small
The idea that me as a child can look up and see someone on the pulpit that represents my racial ethnic background, that is an example of relational image that’s challenging the status quo of the culture. Especially if stereotypes about whatever race or ethnicity is connected that child, especially if those stereotypes are regulating them to positions that are marginalized, you know, stereotypically inferior in some way. We’re trying to provide the counter to that, the counterculture, the pushback, the resistance, that righteous resistance by providing these concrete face to face flesh and bones example that you are not confined to the lies of the world. There’s truth out here. And part of that truth is that you have strength, you have abilities, you have possibilities, you have relational capacity. And you have this sort of like womb knit ability, yes, to hear from God, to represent God, to demonstrate God, to receive the gifts that God has, to reflect the fruits of the Spirit – love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, all of that. You don’t have to be like the way they joked about you on TV or the way you’re criminalized on the news or the way they’re pushing you around in the street. That’s that in the world. And there are other ways to be in the world, that might work out better for you and the neighbors and the world around us to the ends of the earth. So one of those examples is, “Hey, we’re celebrating and we’re submitting ourselves to leadership that is not centered on whiteness.” That’s a beautiful example.

Latasha Morrison
I am a listener in this. Because it’s not my story, but we get a lot of stories through the work that we’re doing. And so I’m so fortunate to have people like yourself, and so many others that I’ve been introduced to, to really be able to listen and to learn. And, you know, one of the things that I’ve seen is, you know, sometimes, this lifting up, I can tell parents who are engaging in this work who are really doing some of the work through TRA or they’re in counseling or whatever, because I can see how they support the birth families and not this complete erasure of birth families. And how can we, those that are listening, you know, whether you are, whether this is your story if you’ve adopted, if you’re adoptee, if you have people in your family or in your church, in your community, we know someone. You know? In my family, we have, you know, my aunt has adopted. I have another aunt that fosters kids. They’re predominantly African American, but we did have Colton, who was white, that was staying with my aunt for years in the foster care system. How can we better support birth families. I’ve seen, you know, in our family situation, it’s not a situation where the birth family can be supported because there was abuse, and why we have my cousin now. But how would you say that birth families can be supported more effectively. I know, like, stories are different. So I just wanted to, because I know, I didn’t want to be one dimensional with the story because like, you know, my cousin was like, on life support, because she was almost murdered by her biological parent. And so I think, you know, but in other situations, what is a way that we can better support birth families and bring honor to their story and dignity up to this?

Cam Lee Small
Yes. And it’s so important to recognize that the birth mother voice or the lived experience of a birth mother, it’s not a monolith. It’s dynamic. And there are different stories out there. So that’s so important. And even simply listening to birth mothers. What what do birth mother communities say? What are they saying right now? Or what have they been saying about, “Hey, this is what we feel. This is what we experience. And this is how you can best support us.” I think one agency in Minnesota that does that well, is called Bellis. You can look that up, I can send you the link to it too. It’s going to support for people whose children are being parented by others. And even that itself, I mean, well, one way is that the use of strengths based language. Okay, so instead of blaming someone for their circumstances, we can ask, well, how can we bear burdens with them despite their circumstances?

Latasha Morrison
Yeah.

Cam Lee Small
And I appreciate the idea of the inclusive family support model. And that was designed by Dr. JaeRan Kim and Angela Tucker. That kind of gives us these four options about how to relate with birth family. And if we can’t have contact, regular meetings, at the very least we can have a spirit of openness in the family, in the adoptive family, that we can talk about and we can think about birth family. Because the idea of ambiguous loss means, you kind of referenced this earlier Latasha, “I don’t know if they’re still alive or not. And they’re not here with me.” So strengths based language to to support birth mothers. When I met my birth mother, she actually originally canceled the meeting. So here I am, take the flight to Korea, go to Incheon Airport, walking through Seoul for a few days, and then boom, the agency says, “Hey, we’re really sorry, it’s canceled.” And I have an email talks about she’s overwhelmed with guilt and shame, she can’t bear to meet you. So I wonder, how can the church make it so birth mothers wouldn’t feel guilt or shame or isolation when they walk through the doors of your community? Not just the four doors of your building, but relationally? “Can I sit in your presence and not feel the condemnation of the world? Can I?” And what can we do as a church community to cultivate that, that there would be a welcoming invitational pull, rather than hands up, stay away, we’ve got your kid now. And to those extreme cases, that’s difficult. And I know that there are hard origin stories. And I was in a training once with some other clinicians, and they were talking about this kid’s birth dad and clinician said, “Well, he’s the only one he’s got.” So what that meant, what I learned there is that even in those circumstances, maybe even especially in those circumstances, where the birth family face almost insurmountable barriers to providing safety for this child. Is there a way we’re so called to love them and pray for them and wish support for them, provide resources for them, believe God’s best in through them God is able kind of stuff. Now, we’re not going to control people to say, “Hey, here’s some money, gotta go to therapy, or you got to do this.” We’re just saying that even in these cases, how can we still walk with you with dignity and respect. So the baseline is saying that even the ways that we’re going to talk about birth family, when they’re not in the room, is a way to serve birth family. Because someday, I might meet my birth mom. And the way that you talked about her might be echoing in my mind when I’m looking into her eyes. I would really love it if there was some trail of blessing and love and hope and peace. So when I am in the room with her, I’ve got nothing but support. Yes, truth got to have truth there with love, speak the truth in love. Right? So that’s one way I guess that’s more of a principle. But then in the practice to, that we’re serving birth mothers through that tangible support. And then the language we use to speak with them and about them. And then just even imagining the future, envisioning a future where they actually might meet the adoptee again, someday.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah, you just actually, I think I just there was a point of clarity in listening to you just now, even as it relates to my family. Because there’s information that we just don’t know. And so we can draw conclusions, but we don’t know the mental state that this person was in to cause them to do what they did. Not to make an excuse for it. But still, there’s a way to, even in the harshness of that story, and the after effects that my cousin is still dealing with in her 30s of something that happened when she was six months. So I think it’s you know, there’s still a way to bring some humanity to it. And have it so that it’s not filtering through her as regret and hate and feeling unloved and, “I’m going through these medical procedures because this is what someone did to me,” but just maybe reminding her that we don’t know the full story and we don’t know the mental capacity. And this is harsh, this is wrong, but also looking at God’s redemption. And, you know, in what she has now or seeing what she has now. And so that you know, I hadn’t really because you almost don’t know what to say. And I think listening to you gave me some words of encouragement that I can use in my own family. What words would you share with adoptees, those who are listening now. You know, I know a lot of kids that I know you know, kids get older, you turn into adults, you have families of your own. What words would you want to share with any fellow adoptees that are feeling a little lost or disconnected or maybe feeling anger. They’re feeling, maybe they’re looking for the strength to maybe go and find a birth parent or visit a country or a state that they’ve come from? What would you say to them?

Cam Lee Small
There are so many different ways to walk through the adoptee journey. And each unique story will have unique ways to show up for support. So if you’re in a season right now, where you’ve got some of these questions and feelings, really want to normalize that. I mean, this is one of the developmental milestones, I think, of the adoptee journey to welcome these emerging emotions. And there can be multiple emotions. Even like we were saying, Latasha, maybe there’s some confusion or doubt or anger, maybe there’s some gratitude at some point, maybe there’s just enraged and maybe there was suffering that came at you because of birth family. And we don’t want to discount that. All this to say like, what like, for me, I didn’t even really know that this is a thing, that emotions related to being an adoptee is a thing. I didn’t have the language, I didn’t have the words to even use to ask for help. But once I met the others, once I started meeting other adoptees, and even just listening to their stories, whether it’s on a kind of podcast or group meet up, a conference, online, a book, whatever. It gave me permission to think through the different dimensions of what could be happening in my life. And there’s the uniqueness and there’s also the commonalities. The “okay, I’m kind of listening to the community. I hear some patterns now. Okay. Oh, that feeling of grief, maybe maybe there is some grief I feel. There’s maybe there’s some resentment, some bitterness. Yeah, and anger, anger at something.” It’s not like you’re just angry out of nowhere, and you should be grateful. You’re angry at some, some real things. And that’s okay. So the advice, the call, the invitation, is to allow that to emerge. And you can connect with folks informally or formally. Informally, that’s maybe people that you trust in your circle of friends, people that know you, and you know them, and you can start asking questions with them or just communicate what you’re going through. And that’s okay, there your safe people, brave space. And formally, like counseling services, mental health, that’s becoming a lot more accessible and normalized now. Like the stigma in the 80s and 90s. For me, it’s like, “Oh, you must have a real big problem, you’re going to therapy? Oh my goodness.” Nowadays, it’s kind of like, it’s the healthy thing to do. It’s so appropriate to be honest with yourself and work with someone who’s trained and that can sit with you in that openness and that love and that connection. So be okay reaching out for help. And then, yeah, I think lastly, is that like, part of the healing process and the growth and the maturation and the making of all things new, for me, that I’ve been finding personally and professionally, is the idea of reporting out, and that’s like a clinical way of saying like telling your story. So there’s like telling your story and then being involved in activism. And, there’s no right or wrong place for an adoptee to be. We might hear some of these terms, like coming out of the fog or, you know, consciousness. What I really appreciate is that wherever you are, in your, like, awareness journey, that’s okay. Don’t put undue pressure on yourself to have to learn all the things, attend all the events, talk to all the people. Take it one day at a time. You can think globally on this grand scale of like, “I want to know myself, discover my identity, be part of all the things.” But just act locally. What do you want to do today that could give you some confidence, that could help you take heart? Is that Scripture? Is it reading a chapter in a book, reading a poem, listen to a song, go for a walk, whatever? But just one step at a time, and take it at your own pace. And I’m not the only one. So take some of my advice today and go out and get more. Be hungry for wisdom. It’s calling out somewhere. And it can come through the adoptee community, where we’re designed…and if you come through people, people are designed to kind of channel and steward and shepherd wisdom and truth and adoptees these are people. So if we’re looking for adoptee specific kinds of like lived wisdom, yeah, it’s out there and have give yourself that permission to look for it.

Latasha Morrison
I love that. I’m so grateful for you, Cam. I am hopeful because of the work that you’re doing. And that you are a resource for adoptees and also for adoptive parents. And there’s so many resources out there. And we’ll list some of those in the show notes. And you know, of course, we have our TRA guide and community that’s going to be in our Academy coming up. So there’s so many things that are available now that wasn’t available 10, 15 years ago. And look for the voices. Follow people on social media. You know, tap into the resources. Buy your book! I’m so glad to hear that you’re writing a book, because it’s going to be a helpful tool for parents and for adoptees. And, I love the fact of just centering the adoptee voice. And I think that’s so critical that we have to make sure that we shift this narrative in how we center the adoptive parents voice but really centering the adoptee voice and especially to help them develop voices at a young age. And so I’m grateful and in any way that be the bridge can be a resource and a partner in this. We are all in. A lot of people in our community, this was the thing that helped them lean into this conversation, it’s because of their personal experiences. So thank you so much for sharing with our Be the Bridge community. Thank you for all the work that you’re doing. And I look forward to talking more to you about our experience in South Korea because I’m telling you it was incredible experience. And I hope to go back one day. So thank you so much.

Cam Lee Small
Thank you for hosting this space Latasha. It’s awesome. Thank you so much.

Narrator
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge Podcast. To find out more about the Be the Bridge organization and or to become a bridge builder in your community, go to BeTheBridge.com Again, that’s BeTheBridge.com. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, remember to rate and review it on this platform and share it with as many people as you possibly can. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Today’s show was edited, recorded, and produced by Travon Potts at Integrated Entertainment Studios in Metro Atlanta, Georgia. The host and executive producer is Latasha Morrison. Lauren C. Brown is the Senior Producer. And transcribed by Sarah Connatser. Please join us next time. This has been a Be the Bridge production.