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Come to the table where biblical justice is served! Join Dr. Terence Lester, Jefferson J. Jones, Dr. Will Gravely, and Pastor Dion Evans as they bring their group chat to the Be the Bridge Podcast in this special series. Don’t miss this conversation!
They explore the theological foundations of justice, the inseparability of Jesus and justice, and the necessity of engaging with the community. The discussion culminates in a call for listeners to take away hope and actionable insights from their conversations. Pull up a chair!
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Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison
Producer – Sarah Connatser
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*this was transcribed by Spotify and has not been checked for errors
0:00
But the thing that she always lifted up, you better take you A to go plate.
I’m hoping that as we gather that people come to the table and are able to take away A to go plate, to go plate of new direction, A to go plate of clarity, A to go plate of hope, A to go plate of directives of what they can apply to their life.
0:23
Because when you come to the cookout, you got to go home with something.
You got to go home with something.
Hey, everyone, Doctor Terrence Lesser here.
I am the founder and executive director of Lobby and Walls, and we are bringing something new to you powered by Be the Bridge.
0:44
It’s called the Justice table.
Hey, I can’t wait to share how we came up with his name.
All about the group chat.
But before we do, I want to pass it to my brother Jefferson to intro himself, and then we’ll follow accordingly.
Yo, what’s up everybody?
1:01
Jefferson Jones here.
I’m excited to be with these brothers for this opportunity.
I’m also a pastor at Change Church here in Atlanta over the kids, but they’re also doing work with my wife in our organization called The Healing Project, where we help people tend to their souls and their relationships, focusing on, you know, normalizing mental health in the body of Christ.
1:25
But then I also do racial and racial reconciliation, racial justice work through one of my organizations called Erasing Grace.
Love it.
What’s up y’all?
Doctor Will Gravely I serve as pastor of Refuge Community Church and founder of the Stained Glass Project, which is a community development organization that repurposes formerly church spaces and reconnects them with the community.
1:51
Awesome, awesome.
My name is Dionne Evans.
I serve as the pastor of Imago Day Church Atlanta out in Gwinnett County, and I also am a trainer for Be the Bridge and heading up the pastor’s cohort for Be the Bridge as well and excited about the Justice Table.
2:06
The justice table, well, I just want to jump in first and say that one of the most redeeming things for this part of the year really for me has been finding community.
And I think we all are feeling the weight of the social landscape of the moment.
2:25
And I, I just want to say to you brothers, you have been a breath of fresh air.
I was recently added to a group chat and I’m sure we can all hop in and, and say how we go from group chat to an actual podcast.
But I just want to name that that it is healthy to be with people who can remind you that hope is still possible, that community still is life giving, and that you can just exchange ideas in the safe, in the safe place without the fear of being attacked or targeted.
2:59
So I want to start off just by naming that.
Do you all have anything?
I mean, I agree.
The times that we’re in, especially when you see divisiveness kind of center stage, it puts a demand on community and relationships.
3:14
And in some of the spaces that we serve, right, we can kind of feel like there aren’t many of us.
So it’s right.
So just having that safe space to just be ourselves and share freely is life giving.
So I echo what you say.
Yeah, I, I echo that.
But I, I was in the the group chat started unbeknownst to me what what it was going to become.
3:34
It was just Tasha started a group chat and then people being add to the group chat and they were talking about stuff and you know, I may have a group chat with Danji, Tasha or a few other people and we’re throwing out stuff, whatever, but had no idea about what this was.
But what I found myself doing and I found that it was such a healing for me.
3:54
It’s because I think as a, when we talk about pastors and leaders in this time or in this space, I think for me at least, I can be honest, I could, I think I maybe maybe self insulate and you know, I want the community to be able to share in like a brave space about what’s happening.
4:09
But I self ventilate when it comes to leaders and patches because a lot of leaders and pastors not it not rocking like that.
And so for this to come, this group had to come.
And then it’s like, OK, all right, let me just go on and drop my shoulders down and kind of relax a little bit because it felt comfortable.
4:25
It felt like something that you need but didn’t know you need, but even though you really knew you needed it, but kind of backed away from it.
So I, it’s been a blessing for me.
It’s been, it’s been really good stuff.
Yeah, that’s good.
I was just thinking about how, you know, in this space, one where I could be like a theological, spiritual, safe place where I could just be human, where I could just be me and that anything and everything that I say, I don’t have to worry about it to be under this.
4:55
Yeah.
There’s this whitewashed Europeanized microscope trying to dissect my every word.
And then to put it in the political categories because I do not sound like or, or agree with where you’re coming from.
And so it’s been, it has been comforting.
5:12
I like what you said, Dion, just about being able to let your shoulders drop, right, Not feeling that tension.
But then also, you know, being able to have brothers and sisters from different backgrounds who add a different flavor to how I’m thinking and what I’m sharing.
5:29
And it’s not just about me being right, but it’s about me having others who can look at what I’m sharing and saying and just give me that AI that has been earned and been vetted through relationship.
Yeah.
Yeah.
5:45
Yeah, all of you all raised something very interesting that I want to point out.
It’s the tension between a safe place and a unsafe society.
How important right now is it for people to find safe spaces in relationship to maintaining your sense of self, your sense of hope, and realizing that we still carry and embody a goodness that needs to be present in the world.
6:15
Because sometimes I don’t know about you all, but like it can feel so exhausting void of a safe, safe space.
And you’re not really knowing how to trust or find your people to Jefferson’s point that you kind of insulate to your point, Pastor Dion, and you take it all on your own shoulders, right.
6:35
And so I, I just want to ask this question and anybody can chime in like, how important is it for safe spaces?
And what are you, what are you all thinking about that right now?
Oh.
Man, I, I, I can jump in on that Doctor Terrance.
That was a great question because I think for me and I, I’ve told my church this over the last man, I think we’ve been in a series called Anomaly flexured on Kingdom culture and we’ve been juxtaposing Kingdom versus empire.
7:01
But I told them every Sunday for like last month or so, I’m like, man, I wish I could just preach about something else, just being honest.
And it wasn’t today that I don’t care about the moment, but it’s, I was referencing more than that, the weight of the moment.
I’m like, man, I wish I could just come in here and we preach like you would preach on a given Sunday, but I am constrained.
7:20
I can’t with good content, with good spiritual, you know, contents go away from what we see happening.
So I’m like drilling it in.
We’re always in that space.
And I feel like for me, and I’ve told them, I said I feel like it overwhelms me sometimes.
It makes me super sad.
7:36
I just get overwhelmed.
So I feel like to come and have to your point about a safe space, I feel like coming here and having the moment of what’s understood that had to be explained and being able to get recharged and to go back out, it helps.
I, I, I feel like it helps me and just for my own sanity’s sake and help me for ministries that helps me to go back and mention my people better and to be able to have a better and a more focused outlook even on what we all are experiencing in this current political and civic moment.
8:05
So yeah, yeah, that’s that’s kind of my take.
That’s good, yo.
That made me think about us being able to come together in this space like this and having a safe space.
So I am going to be just a little theological real quick table in our just the the justice table.
8:26
Come on.
Right.
Come on, reference the.
First, the first mention of table in the Bible was in Exodus 25 and 23, and this was the table of showbread.
And for the Israelites, this was a just real simple.
8:42
This was a space that was created for communion.
And for there to be a room is to be a reminder of God’s provision.
And so when I think about this space that we have now called the justice table and having a safe space, how good does it feel?
9:01
How good it felt for me to be able to come into a chat with brothers and sisters where I knew that I could touch people who are touching God.
Where I could connect with brothers and sisters who can give me a provision that I know their source.
9:22
Because I know that what you all individually, I know that what I’m going to get from you all has been a part of your intimacy with the Father.
I know that what I’m going to get from each of you is something that is, I may not like everything, but I know that it comes from the one who provides.
9:42
So I love being and for me, safe space.
Like, yo, I’m coming in here.
Like I know that what I’m going to get from these men and women, it’s going to be a provision from God as they are the, the channel that God is going to use for what I need in this season.
And everybody don’t have that.
9:59
They, they can’t go to every Christian or every house or every circle and, and see that they say they represent God, but they’re not providing what comes from the source.
I know I had that here right?
The justice table.
10:17
Yes, Sir.
Yeah, I echoed that too.
And like Doctor Terence, you said the value of safe space in an unsafe world.
I think we’re in a time where agreement is kind of the imposter of understanding, and there are people in the world that are.
10:36
What a run that back doc.
Rewind that.
He’s a bar ologist, by the way.
Yeah, all my guys, you know, but like agreement is the imposter of understanding.
And I think what you do in a, in a hostile environment is you look for agreement because it’s, it creates surface connections.
10:55
Like you’re in my category, you’re in my political party, you’re in my denomination, You’re right, right.
And then you’re surrounded by a lot of people, but you’re still unsafe, right?
So like for us, this safe spaces where I feel understood, like there’s not just agreement, I feel understood and I’m able to gain understanding, right?
11:15
So like I feel safe around y’all as all of me, but I’m able to learn from you and with you, right?
So that to me is what makes it a thoroughly.
Safe space yo.
Real quick, that just made me think, man, that even as this is a safe space, there is sharpening in safety.
11:35
Bars, bars got this interject real quick.
I know doctor Karen, you’re going to jump on, but but Jefferson got me started when he talked about the showbread.
So and so when he’s when soon what he says showbread from Exodus.
I’m I’m I’m I’m fast forwarding and when David had to eat the table showbread on the run from the Philistines.
11:51
Something about us being on the run in this moment, being in unsafe spaces in enemy territory and us going and even probably, you know, like that for him was a quote UN quote breaking of what was supposed to be happening at the moment.
But you know, we find out that God will find will be resourced in for us in those moments, even against what is supposed to be happening when when this when the trouble is bad enough.
12:16
And so I feel like this text thread is for us has been that place of show bread.
We’re coming eating from the table of show bread even when we’re on the run because we, you know, we come there like Jeff was going to start with either a joke or something crazy right at first first thing in the morning, people, the first one in there or like today, Doctor Terence showed violence this morning and and and the group thread.
12:36
But I mean, it’s a place where we’re able to come because we we’re because then we go into our days, we’re on the run, we are on the run and then those, you know, the society is crazy.
So I feel like that’s that.
You made me think about that when you went to the show bread.
So that was dope.
That was dope.
So I’ll take SO.
12:52
Yeah, all right, now you got me.
Hold on.
He set me up.
Listen, on the run.
So I want to talk about Mephibosheth very quickly, that the woman was carrying Mephibosheth.
Mephibosheth and they were on the run.
But Mephibosheth end up being dropped and crippled and was crippled his whole life and his wound to the table.
13:16
Wait, hold on.
I see you.
I.
See you right.
But because of his wound.
Wait a minute.
He went into isolation.
He was on the run, so he was dropped because someone was on the run.
And then he chose to run because of his He was on the run because of his wounds.
13:34
And he went to a place called Loadable.
Loadable.
But then over time, word got around and David was looking for a last living descendant.
Who can I show kindness to that what he?
Said who could I show kindness to?
13:51
And David ended up signing a a man by the name of Mephibosheth, and even with his crippledness, even with his wound, Davis said.
I have a seat at the table.
For you that.
Part that part.
And at the table, seated at the table, his wounds couldn’t be seen and his wounds weren’t an issue.
14:13
So I’m thinking about this on the run that that he was able to come back to a table with his wounds and be protected.
And David knew exactly what his wound was, but didn’t use that as a way to manipulate or to flex power over him or to flex control over him.
14:33
He didn’t say owe me anything for bringing you to the table.
This is an act of kindness.
This is justice at the table.
OK, group chat.
OK, group chat the.
Table covered.
I’m quiet.
I’m quiet now going.
Now I, I was so I’m I’m taking and all of this in and I’m, I’m thinking about how the table in our group chat has given me a renewed sense of conviction, right?
15:00
As when doctor will was talking about, you know, this, this both isms climate of agreement.
It’s hard to maintain your convictions without feeling that you’re crazy, right?
And so I, I would say for me, like being in the chat and how this has organically evolved into like we’re at the table now.
15:25
I feel much stronger in my convictions.
I feel stronger in my convictions that I need to stand in solidarity with those who are impoverished.
I feel stronger in my convictions that the unhoused are still the beloved of God.
15:40
I feel stronger in my convictions that food insecurity is something that we need to address even in this critical moment.
I, I feel strong in my convictions that I can speak out and be a truth teller, right?
Because and understanding that that truth telling may call me, cause me to be wounded, but I have a table that I can go back to and maintain my convictions.
16:06
You feel what I’m saying.
And so like, brothers, come on, I appreciate that this space, this safe space has allowed me to not only test my convictions but reinforce my convictions so that when I’m going out, I don’t feel crazy or I don’t feel like the misunderstandings of what other people may have about my convictions should dictate whether I should stand on business or not.
16:36
Yeah.
So for you, like where are you in terms of your convictions in this society that is seeking to uphold erasure, uphold a a sense of targeting for those who are seeking to tell truth and also are using that sense of targeting to provide those wounds that Jefferson is talking about?
17:02
I, I, I want to, I want to hug the mic and let, let somebody else jump in and I’ll go and get in there.
Politics has always been tricky, but I think it’s problematic now because rather than politics being shifted by morality or ethics, politics is shifting morality and ethics.
17:24
So now that people.
Have tried one more time.
We got so many rewinds, Jefferson and Doctor, we have got the bars today.
No team effort, Team effort.
But not like politics should be shifted by or just to morality and ethics.
17:44
But in our society, morality and ethics is being adapted or shifting to politics.
Right?
So by the time somebody chooses a side, now right and wrong is subjective.
Now, universal right and wrong is up for interpretation because you’ve chosen a side or a color.
18:03
And that’s why I think the theological grounding of our conversation, like as much fun as we have and we dive into culture and identity and all these things, I think it gives us the tools to be able to see the world through a particular lens that’s higher than the this or that or the current conflicts politically, right?
18:23
So it’s like we’re not just reminding each other, like for us Scriptures reminding us, like for us theology is reminding us that above the debate is still this notion of what is right and what is wrong and that all of humanity are God’s children, you know?
18:40
Yeah.
Yo, Doctor, will you, you just said something that kind of opened up a Pandora’s box for me a little bit, only because it gets at a deeper issue.
So I, I resonate with what, what you were, what you were saying, because we’ve had a whole thing that I’ve been trying to communicate to our church about being a Christian who is political versus being a political Christian, right?
18:59
So you have a Christian who’s political, I’m a Christian and I’m engaging in politics versus being political.
And that’s driving my Christianity, which is what you mentioned as far as Christianity, I mean, politics driving ethic and moral conversation.
But what it made me think about, because you mentioned the fact that, you know, we are engaging with Scripture and the biblical mandate that’s driving how we ought to be engaging politically, which is what we should be doing.
19:24
But the thing that kind of scared me when you said it, not because it’s wrong.
It’s because oftentimes the people that we find ourselves on the run from are people who believe that that’s what they’re doing because they have a skewed and misinterpretation or a skewed interpretation of the Scriptures that makes them think I am upholding the Bible.
19:44
And I’m a hole in the Bible and they don’t even see the mixture that the politics, the politics is driving it and preference is driving it.
And so it’s, it’s, it’s a real kind of mixed bag.
But I 100% cosign what you’re saying.
And I think for me, one thing that’s been helpful is what I’ve tried to do with our church is keep all these things that we’re seeing in front of them.
20:07
You know, I can’t know everything that’s happening civic civically, locally around the world, but I try to get everything I can, whether it be.
The things that deal with the homelessness, homeless population, whether things be things that deal with, you know, food insecurities, whether it be things that deal with, you know, shoot what’s happening in Jamaica or whatever it was in Palestine with the genocide.
20:28
They’re all the things trying to keep that stuff in front of the people so they can know that this, I’m not just keeping it in front of you for some political gain, but that this is, God cares about these people.
God cares about these things.
God cares about these situations.
And I don’t ever want us to be callous to it.
20:46
So I’m gonna keep it in front of you guys so you can keep your heart soft, but also to keep it in front of you guys.
Listen, I’m like, no, cap, we’re not in the city.
We’re in the suburbs.
Our church is probably about 1520 minutes from where Jefferson is.
Jefferson’s church.
We’re in the suburbs, we’re in Duluth.
21:02
Swanee, people got money.
People ain’t worrying about these things in our own house necessarily.
They may have a little bit of worry when they see things like the job loss or whatever, but by and large they don’t.
Unless you keep that in front of them, it can be something that’s easily forgotten.
21:19
So I think keeping in front of them is something that keeps their hearts off and lets them know that I am supposed to be caring about something outside of my own purview, outside of my own thing.
Even though it doesn’t affect me directly, it affects somebody else who’s also an image bearer, so it ought to be something that bothers me too so.
Yeah.
That’s my little, little spill on that.
21:37
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21:56
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22:15
Yeah, I think it’s it’s the difference between personal theology and a public theology, right.
It is very easy for one to attend a worship and have this personal relationship with God, right, which nothing is wrong with that.
22:32
But then I think the question that you’re raising pastor beyond is like, what is God saying about what is happening around me and how do I connect with God’s heart about what he thinks about what’s happening around me?
You know, you know, it’s been very disheartening, but watching what is happening in terms of the government shutdown, right?
22:56
There’s an increase in job layoffs right now.
We have the AI revolution.
I just saw I read an article about how 600,000 people are expected to lose their jobs because one CEO who is a part of the 1% is going to replace workers, human workers with AI robots, right?
23:17
You have people who on Monday right will not receive benefits if the government still is shut down.
And many of these people are hard working individuals.
And I think I wrote something the other day, it was like we need to move from asking the question, why are so many people on SNAP and start asking why are so many, many working people qualifying for SNAP benefits?
23:44
And it’s a reframing of that question.
I’ve also started to see a lot of people who are, who have platforms who have graduated from college, post testimonial videos about how this subsidy has, you know, helped them during periods of life when they didn’t have it all together.
24:01
And I think, you know, it’s about being honest and not shaming people who are standing in need of help.
Asking for help doesn’t make you less human, right?
It makes you a person who stands in need of the grace of God, right.
24:16
And so as we are asking people to grow personally in their devotion in their relationship with Jesus, I, I just want to know, just asking you pastors, right, all of you are leading in, in, in the church context.
How are you all actually encouraging people to also maintain that, that public witness in that public theology and really wrestle with those questions?
24:40
What does God have to say about, you know, unhoused people being evicted from being unhoused?
What does God have to say about, you know, when Jesus said when you saw me hungry, you fed me, you didn’t shut down a program.
You know, how are you all addressing that in that in this in this moment?
24:59
And it’s a heavy question but I I need to know.
Anybody want to jump in?
We were in a a bigger series like Pastor Dion.
Ours was called the Kingdom, Sovereignty and Surrender.
And I was addressing this notion of the institution of Western Christianity and what it became and the way that Yeshua established and how the institution has taken on a certain theology that has masses of so-called.
25:29
I mean, I’m being generous.
I don’t mean that to sound the way it did of Christians so politically in meshed right.
And I don’t mean engaging in politics.
I mean alignments, right, like God is on my side kind of thing.
And then we had to go a little deeper to this notion of it was called bad actors.
25:48
And we just took on this term of hypocrite, like one who wears a mask, like, you know, the original application is stage actors, right?
And the reality of if we’re not careful, even our church circle, even what we believe are healthy ministries can become an insulated circle unto themselves.
26:06
And at some point, the public engagement has to happen.
And so empowering and equipping our people for the same type of encouragement we get from each other at like in a group chat to to gain that from each other and our faith family so that as we go out and disperse during the week, they feel confident and equipped to engage with those around them because that’s where the needle really gets moved.
26:28
And giving people permission to take off the lens of your newsfeed or these headlines and to allow Scripture theology to inform what you’re seeing.
God fills away about this stuff, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:44
True story.
Yeah, that’s good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
For me, there’s a, there’s a couple of things.
One of the things that we do at Change is we have once a month, we have what’s called outpour.
And during that time, it is a time of worship.
It is a time of education.
27:01
And that education is to help form Christians, not just spiritually, but also practically.
And we’ll have like, for example, Doctor Jamar Tisby come in and other leaders in different areas come in to educate people so that they can be equipped and be knowledgeable of how to move to action.
27:21
And just specifically with that workshop, that training that he did, that actually fueled people to a place of action.
He, he pretty much said at the end, like, Yo, So what are you going to do now?
What are you going to commit to as we have this spirit of justice in US and that we, we know this y’all justice takes sides and as we are called to this work like Jesus and justice, they go real good together.
27:50
They’re, they’re practically inseparable.
And now from a youth perspective, what we’re working in in doing is creating opportunities to teach children how to give back to the community.
28:05
I’m not talking about an offering on Sunday.
I’m talking about teaching them how to make care packets, teaching them how to do things that will impact the people that they don’t see on the regular.
And I think this is these are some of the things that will help deal with the, the myopia that we see that people have.
28:24
And guess what?
We all have some near sightedness and we have to be reminded, I think you mentioned the individual, but then also public, right, individual, but then also community, that the more that we come out of just seeing our self in our circle and go beyond the borders, go beyond the US, go beyond our state, and we go across the world.
28:45
That we we begin to see that that there are people in need and that our vision, our purpose as king of citizens is to really touch and to reach people beyond just who we feel comfortable being with.
So that’s just a little bit of, you know, what we have going on that we’re doing.
29:03
That’s, that’s good stuff.
That’s good stuff.
I think, I think for, for us, and it kind of echoes it to where you’re saying Jefferson, I think one, one thing that I try to do is teach it right?
Teach it, teach it.
My, my pastor back home, Bishop Kenneth Alma, would always say, teach it before you do it.
Whatever you’re doing, a church, if you’re doing a building fund, if you’re doing someone to offer and whatever you’re doing, teach you before you do it to get the people’s hearts in there.
29:24
And so I always, I’m trying to teach in that direction, even if we’re talking about something else.
I try to teach it in a way to where you can see the individual piece, but you can see much broader.
I even, I try to be intentional about going into scriptures that we often have interpreted and talked about them in an individual base and, and broaden them out like I, I, I Jeremiah 2911.
29:45
I’m like, I’m not, that ain’t about you.
That’s that’s about a whole community of people.
And so we, we, we went, we go through that piece.
Of that part that.
Part.
Right, right.
But one thing I think that really kind of pushes it is even the reason why we are who we are as far as the church with the model day being, you know, image of God.
30:04
And in our mission is we exist to restore the dignity of God’s image to water of image bearers.
So we’re always trying to push home the fact that everybody you come into contact with, not just in these four walls, but anybody come into contact with someone on the side of the street, someone strung out, someone hungry, someone jobless, someone around the world.
30:22
They are all created in God’s image and our mission is to restore the dignity of God’s image because God created them away.
But life or whatever the experience has taken away the feeling of that.
This is that I’m dignity, that I deserve dignity.
So kind of helping our mission is to restore that dignity.
30:38
So whoever you come into contact with, they may not look great, may not smell great, may not be in a great position and however you deem great positions to be, but your responsibility, our responsibility is to see them as dignified image bearers.
And so we try to always hit that home.
30:54
So whoever they come in contact with, it ain’t got to be me.
So you, you need to treat the homeless person the same way you treat your pastor because he’s an image bearer.
She’s an image bearer.
So that’s kind of something that we kind of kind of thread through our daily communications.
So yeah, I’ll say that.
31:10
Yeah, yeah.
Right now you’re listening to the justice table.
Now what?
Look, Jefferson, like you to, to to pastor Dion’s point, you, you helped to you threw out all of these names in the chat and the justice table like just jumped out to everybody immediately.
31:33
Then Doctor Will got on his creative tip, Bro, send the logo and everybody was chiming in and justice all resonated with all of us.
Like at the same time, I want to know why first, but why?
And I also want to know why Jesus and Justice is so critical at this moment.
31:55
What do you all got?
I think I want to wait.
I want to hear one of you all give.
I want to hear one of y’all do it give a like let’s let’s talk.
Can we talk like a biblical definition of justice for just a moment?
What do y’all think about that?
32:12
How do y’all see justice theologically, Biblically?
Well, I’ll touch base on this because it’s like fresh in my head because I was listening to a podcast for Jude three recently where Latasha Morrison was on the panel.
This is just like a few months ago she was with them.
32:27
What the pop up doctor AR Bernard was on the panel, Lisa Fields, obviously, and a few others.
Now we’re talking through justice.
When I think about Jesus and justice being inextricably woven together and what we see justice in the Bible, justice has to when I look at the etymologically, when we look at justice, it refers like a setting of a broken bone, right.
32:49
And so there’s this idea where justice is about realignment, making, making things right again, right.
So there’s there’s this spatial where if we’re doing justice, I can think doctor will earlier was talking about agreement was not that we just do agreement as a surface level because and so that that if that avoids any tinge of one that wouldn’t have justice.
33:09
If I say I agree and I’m sorry, all those things fall short of justice because it’s not setting anything right.
Again, Jesus was so serious about justice and I’ll let this go so Doctor Will or anybody else can chime in.
He was so serious about justice that he died in order for God to get justice right because God demand.
33:25
God demanded the blood sacrifice and bulls, lambs and ghosts and torados were no longer sufficient.
So serious that in order for my Father in heaven to get justice, I need to let this go.
I need to shed these mortal coils and die for justice.
33:42
So I think and because it was about setting things right, so the death and sacrifice of Jesus said things right again brought about right relationship.
Paul talked about this in Ephesians one and two and three.
He talks about the great mystery when he’s talking about to the Jews.
Hey, This is why the Gentiles are back in step because Jesus died.
33:58
So that’s kind of my little spell there.
I don’t want to take up all the my time.
So I’d I’d move on to Doctor Willard Jefferson.
I’ll say something quickly like the you hit the nail on the head about like the reset.
Yeah.
So I think about like, restoration and I realize that like justice is expensive.
34:16
I think the argument and the debate is over who should pay for.
It Jesus doctor will right so.
Injustice is pushing away liability and setting the bill in front of the wrong people.
Wow.
So that’s what I think the the issue is.
34:36
And like you look at just familiar verse to Psalm Micah 6-8.
It’s a it’s a justice is a calling as well.
So like Jesus and justice are inseparable, but it is it is the call of God’s people to restore by placing the bill in front of the right people.
34:55
And so.
Yeah, I, I want, I, I, I would add like I, I want to lift up the fact that there are two terms in the text in the Canon that are.
Come on, Canon all.
Throughout all, all throughout Scripture, that’s righteousness and justice, right?
35:15
Righteousness translates in the Hebrew.
It has to do with rightness, integrity, right moral order, right.
It’s it’s beyond political debate.
It’s about a moral framework, right?
It’s a right posturing of the heart because God is after the heart, right?
35:36
This, this righteousness.
And then the justice is it has to do with right action lived out, right.
And so when these are in conflict or in contrast to one another, then you have someone who’s posturing to have a right heart but don’t want to live out of right action, then you’re not actually glorifying the Father in heaven.
35:59
And so that’s why you’re having an Amos 524.
Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever flowing stream.
And so I’m saying like Jesus comes right so that we might have a right posture, a right relationship, a right standing with God, right so that we might have what right lived actions, right behavior.
36:28
You know, I think James in the book of James that says we can’t be doors hearers of the word, but not doers of the word hearers of the word, but not doers right.
And so I, when I, when I see justice, I, I think about am I having the right heart posture?
36:45
But also am I allowed right heart posture show up in how I’m living, how I’m living, how I’m living, what I’m actually doing on behalf of neighbor.
Because when Jesus says love God with everything in your neighbor as yourself, he’s not talking about the neighbor that’s just like you.
37:02
He’s talking about a neighbor that may be from a different social location than you.
And if you’re concerned with that neighbor, you also have to be concerned with the neighborhood, that the neighborhood the neighbor emerges from.
And you have to be concerned with what that neighborhood faces, right?
37:18
And so I just can’t stop that neighbor.
I got to go to the neighborhood and also be concerned about what the neighborhood faces.
So it’s it’s right posture of heart, but it’s also right action.
That sounds like a system.
Yeah, yes.
Sir, sound like a system for me.
37:35
Yes it does.
Yo man, that made me think this wasn’t a part of what I was going to say, but I’m going to say this 1st.
I believe it’s in the book Generous Justice by Tim Keller.
Oh yeah.
He talks about a commute.
I think it’s his book, but it was not this one.
It’s another one.
37:50
But he talks about a community where there’s someone there who is deaf and everybody, everybody in the community chooses to learn sign language.
Everybody in the community in that town learns sign language.
38:16
Wow.
That is just wow.
Wow, that.
Fair.
Yeah.
Well, we can only do the act of justice if we are able to set aside our privileges.
Set aside our privileges, become as a servant and obey.
38:42
That’s what Jesus did.
He gave up his seat.
He gave up his seat.
He said I’m going to come where you are.
I’m going to meet you.
Somebody said get on my level.
I’m going to meet you on your level.
Turn to your right.
38:57
I’m going to, I’m going to cut.
Look, he, he was seated.
He was already seated in heavenly places, but he got up.
So I’ll get off my seat, my heavenly seat, and come sit in an earthly seat.
Take this glory off real quick.
Didn’t think in.
39:13
Robbery didn’t think in robbery this is this justice work but people cannot take on that.
Philippians 2.
Jesus.
And since they can’t.
Have the state.
Of Union.
They can’t do justice, right?
39:31
And so this justice thing for me at its core, I mean, it’s, it’s about doing what Jesus would do.
And I but if we don’t, if we do not have this etymology, we don’t have this theological, not just a theological framework.
There’s a lot of people who have a theological framework who still do injustice.
39:50
That’s right.
And we’ll and we’ll say that God approved it, but it is a matter of bro, you got to understand too.
Yeah, yeah, I got.
One for pray bro.
It is.
Is your sociology theologically informed?
Oh my, right in all you.
40:08
Hey, God sees.
People wait.
You see, wait.
Do you see?
Do you see what I see?
Do you see what God?
We cast out demons in your name, depart from you because of iniquity.
If I never knew you.
Yeah, I don’t know you, Jack.
I I had a brand of Christianity that wasn’t really the Christianity because it didn’t do and have a harp behind orthodoxy.
40:27
Orthodoxy, the pathos.
Oh my God, come on.
Preach, Jack.
So no, man, it’s just, you know, and this, you know, we people have taken it like Christianity is a morality.
These political parties, they’ll take take a list of things and say, no, this is Christian.
40:45
No, you’re just moral in some ways.
There are a lot of people who aren’t Christians who do justice better than Christians.
It’s a fact.
That is true.
Come on.
Come on.
Come on.
Yeah, yeah.
All right, that’s, that’s all I got for now.
I mean, just even thinking about this, I, I think all of what we have said is why the justice table is being organically formed, right?
41:12
We have not formed, but to in to inform being formed to inform, right?
Come on, what?
What, what are you, what are you all hoping that people who watch these podcasts and these intimate conversations about something that we are taking from group chats, right?
41:35
What?
What are you hoping people walk away from as we close?
I’ll probably say, well, the fact that this came from a group chat is just wild because a lot of people, a lot of time people group chats, you don’t want to know what you’re talking about your group chat because some group chats be a little saucy.
41:51
But I will say that what I’m what I’m thinking about, what I would like for the hearers of this podcast to kind of get into, like I think about, for instance, be the bridge.
We are starting a pastors cohort, right?
So I have a heart for pastors and leaders in this area because a lot of them are afraid or a lot of them just don’t know.
42:11
So my hope for this podcast is that leaders and pastors tap in because I’ll say, I’ll say it like this.
I think the parishioners or that’s church members is I want to use church speak like members of churches.
They already are on track in a lot of these areas there.
42:28
And from what I’m saying, statistically and just for conversations, that church members are one, their leadership to step up and do the things that say the things and be who they need to be in this moment to lead the charge in this area.
So I’m hoping that people are able to tap into this podcast as an accessible way to get some courage to get some fire up under them, but not just get courage and fire up under them, but get some information.
42:51
You got people like doctor will, doctor Terrence and Jefferson dropping bars and giving it.
I want them to see this and hear the simple like I’m like you guys said earlier, I’m not crazy.
Other people are feeling this and thinking this and then kind of go into their own go.
You therefore do likewise.
I that’s what I want them to kind of be when they get this podcast.
43:09
So.
Man, you I was.
You made me think about a black cookout man.
And I maybe because I want some BBQ or whatever, but we hope for wait.
My, my, my, my grandmother and my grandfather used to do it.
43:28
My grandmother is still living.
She’s 93 years old, still walks 2 miles every other day.
Can text message text me yesterday Right OK.
Grandma.
But back in the day, like they would cook so much food and invite so many people over that when you left there, not only did you feel inspired and communal and the sense of like relief just from being around people, but the thing that she always lifted up.
43:57
You better take your to go plate.
I’m hoping that as we gather that people come to the table and are able to take away A to go plate, to go plate of new direction, A to go plate of clarity, A to go plate of hope, A to go plate of directives of what they can apply to their life.
44:17
Because when you come to the cookout, you got to go home with something.
You got to go home with something.
What I want to I want people to to leave with.
I don’t want them to come and, and like sit at the table and not walk away with a meal, Right.
44:35
Oh, he’s playing the organ.
Like, I’m serious.
Like, we want people to come, come, come, come and walk away with meals, man.
And whatever that translates to in the current current context of a person’s life, that’s what I want people to walk away with.
Yes, Sir, that’s good.
44:50
And you made me think Doctor T, about a couple of things.
Well, you made me think about the woman at the well and how she went back and she said come see a man.
But then you also made me think about then you also made me think about when Jesus had communion with the disciples and how he took the bread, blessed it, he be broke it, gave it out.
45:15
And I love your cookout analogy because, you know, you take it to go plate, but when you take that to go plate, when you take it home and people smell it, they’re like what you got in there.
It was like, yo, you got to taste this Mac and cheese.
Yo, you got to taste these collards.
45:32
Yo, you got you got to taste this.
Ribs.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because it’s so good.
And then you let.
Where have you been?
Where have you been?
And I’m like, yo, wait, yeah.
Where you get this from?
I want some.
Yes, Sir.
Yes, Sir, Come see a man.
Come see a man.
And what happens is we invite other people to come to the table and they go through this process of being blessed and being broken and being given out.
45:56
And then they go and it multiplies.
And then they say, yo, where’d you get that from?
Come see a man.
So there’s this, it’s just this whole ordeal happening.
And I’m just hoping that this would be a space, the Justice table, where as we break bread, as we have our digital cookout, that people are going to taste some flavors that they maybe never tasted before.
46:21
And it will take away the stigmas, will take away the myopia, will take away the bias, all these things that have been barriers for people.
And it might sting, it might hurt, it might be uncomfortable.
But they’re going to want more.
And they’re going to take it to somebody else.
And they’re going to say, yo, come see a man, you got to try this meal.
46:40
Come eat at the Justice Table.
Listen.
Listen.
Yo.
No all.
Right y’all, I’m gonna send my send my offering in, but my hope is that if you find yourself seated at a just US table that you would know that there’s a seat for you at the justice table.
47:03
Bars and bars.
Come on, Sir, now that’s real.
How do you?
Know the difference?
How do you know the difference?
That’s yelling.
Take your time, Reverend.
Yeah.
Ice in your veins.
Just ice.
How do you know which?
47:18
Table you’re seated at.
Yeah, Facts, yo.
But how do you know which table you’re seated at, right?
Well, there’s a certain there’s a certain way to tell.
At the just us table, they pull out weapons.
At the just us table, we pull up chairs.
47:37
We pull up chairs.
So.
So here’s the last here’s the last.
Here’s the last part.
We don’t pull out weapons, we pull up chairs.
Right.
Why is that important?
Because in spaces like this, at the table, at the table, it’s a space for communication.
47:54
Communication leads to community.
Community, let’s go, leads to culture.
Culture leads to conviction.
And then conviction should lead to communication again.
The table should get wider and wider and more and more chairs, not weapons, should be pulled up as this grows.
48:12
That’s my hope.
It’s y’all.
It’s y’all.
You put it in the water.
You.
See, he’s got bars and act like he don’t know that he dropped on bars just going yeah, that’s on Steph Curry this man all day I’m.
In good company.
48:28
I’m in good company.
Jefferson expanded, willed, and came with the alliteration.
Pastor Dion, you’re going to give us some benediction, Sir.
I, I, I, I started off with the wig sauce and y’all came in.
Y’all killed it.
No, but come on, Benedict.
48:43
Or something out of here.
I’ve got no no to say, but I will say that we for for those of us on here, but not just we all know this already, but for people who are watching this podcast, there are others that there’s more table that we have be the bridge founder Latasha Morrison is going to be tapping in as well as we have Daryl Ford, another just like doctor Terrence and Jefferson and doctor will with another scholar erudite just as my individual.
49:13
I didn’t include myself on here because I like y’all.
Y’all a different breed.
I’m just here.
I’m just here passing y’all to rocks.
Y’all can get them alley of soft.
I’m going to drop it over to doctor Tanton.
He can Benedict us and, you know, doing it all to call.
Yeah, I was, man.
49:30
Thank you each of you for your contribution today.
I definitely feel full and I’m not just saying that right.
I’m saying that because it is it is heavy when we all, you know, depart from this table and and go back out into the world and continue the work of God.
49:50
And I am just I want to express my gratitude to a founder, Latasha Morrison.
This is being powered by be the bridge to bring us all together in a way where we can break the bread of peace right great of hope and all all of the things that fills us up as we continue to go back out into the world to to commit ourselves to the calling of God.
50:15
But the work of God right and and so I want to read the Scripture as we close and man it’s Psalm 46 one through 3.
God is our refuge and strength, refuge and strength, refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
50:38
I pause there because we forget sometimes that God is the main refuge that we should run to.
And God’s refuge provides a strength to continue when everything around us seems troublesome, right?
50:54
It goes on.
Therefore we will not fear though the earth should change, though society shall change.
It says also, though the mountains shake in the heart of the sea, though its waters roll, roar and foam, though the mountains tremble with this tumult, Right, It says, say law, right?
51:15
It names all of these things that could possibly happen.
But then it asked us to pause.
Why?
Because it goes back to verse one.
God is our refuge and our strength.
And so I’ll leave us with that because I think as we continue to press towards the end of this year, that is the reminder that should ground us all and that should become our foundation because God is our main source.
51:39
So I appreciate you all, man it.
I didn’t know I would be moderating, but you.
Killed it.
You killed it.
You killed it.
You crushed it, Sir.
It is awesome man.
Thank you all.
Love y’all man.
Absolutely love y’all peace.
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge Podcast.
52:00
To find out more about Be the Bridge and what we offer, visit bethebridge.com.
Partner with us in this work at bethebridge.com/give, Connect with us on social media, and remember, you are not alone in your pursuit of righteousness and justice.
52:16
Latasha Morrison is the executive producer, Sarah Connatser is the producer, and transcripts are done by a wonderful team of volunteers.
Thanks for listening.
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