Find this episode and subscribe on:
In this episode of the Be The Bridge podcast, Latasha Morrison interviews Shane Claiborne, a prominent speaker and activist known for his work in social justice and peacemaking. They discuss the current state of the world, the role of Christians in advocating for justice, and the importance of understanding and interpreting scripture correctly. Shane emphasizes the need for courageous action in the face of injustice. The conversation also touches on the importance of repentance and redemption in the Christian faith, and how these principles can guide believers in their activism.
Join in the conversation on our social media pages on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn to let us know your thoughts on this episode!
Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison
Producer – Sarah Connatser
Links:
Register for the BTB Blueprint Community Zoom with Tasha and Shane
Watch the Church at the Crossroads conference recordings
Connect with Be the Bridge:
Our Website
Facebook
Instagram
BTB YouTube
Join the online community BTB Connect
Connect with Shane Claiborne:
Connect with Latasha Morrison:
Facebook
Instagram
Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.
*this was transcribed by Spotify and has not been checked for errors
0:00
But what’s also interesting is, according to that prophetic vision, the change doesn’t come from the top, but it comes from the bottom.
Come on, somebody right like I, it literally is not kings and presidents and prime ministers and legislators that lead us to peace.
They keep leading us into the wars.
0:17
It’s the people, the people of God, who get fed up with violence.
They get tired of seeing their babies killed.
And they began to recraft the tools of death and the tools of life.
And they lead us towards that vision, right?
Like, so I think that’s it’s powerful.
0:33
The implications when it comes to gun violence or what’s happening in Gaza is sometimes I think we throw our hands up at God and we say, God, why don’t you do something?
And if we listen careful, we can hear God say, I did do something.
I made you.
I mean, you literally are my hands and feet.
0:49
You are my prophetic people in the world.
Welcome to the Be the Bridge podcast.
Be the Bridge exists to empower people and culture toward racial healing, equity, and reconciliation.
Latasha Morrison founded Be the Bridge in 2016 to foster needed dialogue and brave spaces and to give people the tools to pursue racial justice.
1:12
We provide resources and community to do just that, and this podcast is one of those resources.
You’ll hear interviews hosted by Latasha and our team, conversations about current events, and encouragement for your racial literacy journey.
Thank you for listening, subscribing and engaging in this important work.
1:33
Me, the Bridge family.
I’m so excited to have this person on the Beta Bridge podcast.
Many of you may know him.
For some this may be a first introduction.
Some of you have his books.
You may have may see his life, you may see what he post online and how he lives and the way of Jesus.
1:55
I am really grateful to be to have him on and I was just on his podcast and now he is on the Be the Prince podcast.
Shane Claiborne.
He is a prominent speaker and activist and best selling author.
2:11
Shane worked with Mother Teresa in Calcutta and found it the simple way in Philadelphia.
He has that red letter Christians of movement of folks who are committed to living as if Jesus meant the things he said.
Shane is a champion for grace, which has led him to jail, advocating for the homeless into places like Iraq, Afghanistan, to stand against war.
2:31
Now Grace fuels his passion to end the death penalty and help stop gun violence.
His books Jesus for President, Grand That a Revolution, Common Prayer, Follow Me to Freedom, Jesus, Bombs and Ice Cream Becoming the answer to our prayers, Executing Grace, His classic The Irresistible Revolution, beating guns in the newest book Rethinking Life.
2:56
He has been featured in a number of films, including Another World as Possible and Ordinary Radicals, his book says been transmitted into more than a dozen languages.
His work has appeared in Esquire, Spin, Christianity Today, Time in the Wall Street Journal, and has been on everything from Fox News to Al Jazeera, CNNMPR.
3:18
He’s given academic lectures at Harvard, Princeton, Liberty, Duke, Notre Dame, and in 2023, Shane received the prestigious King Centers Beloved Community Award for Social Justice from Doctor Bernice King, the daughter of Martin Luther King, King and Coretta Scott King.
3:35
Shane speaks regularly at denominational gatherings, festivals and conferences, and around the globe.
I wanted to read the long one because I want people to know who we are living among today.
And I even reading this, you know, sometimes you don’t know the period of time that you’re living in, the impact that people would have.
3:56
And even as I’m reading this, I’m like, wow, this is significant.
Like we are living in a time where in the same generation of so many God fearing people.
And I’m grateful for that.
And I, you know, sometimes you don’t think about that until you read history and you look back and you’re like, wow, my grandmother was born, you know, the same year that Herod Tubman pass She, you know, they, they, they share air together, you know, and that’s when I read your bio.
4:29
That’s what I think about with you.
And so I’m so grateful for your love for Jesus.
Most of all, that drives everything that you do.
So welcome to the Be the Bridge podcast.
Oh, you got me blushing over here and I got little chill bumps on my arms.
4:46
Tasha, I’m.
I’m always glad to be with you.
And I do think, wow, what a what a wild but wonderful gift to be alive at such a time as this.
And and yeah, see what it what it means to try to be light in the darkness, to shape history.
5:06
So I’m humbled and just always glad to be with you, sister.
So good, so good.
I mean, you, I’m going to start off, I think I’m going to just, we’re going to dive all in.
And I want you to, you know, because this, this is not a time to we always present truth with grace, you know, and love.
5:32
And we do the work that we do because we love deeply and we love the people of God deeply.
So you, you, your recent IG post like stands out.
And it’s just when we think about the time that we’re living in, when we cannot find humanity like you, we read about genocide and different things that has happened in the course of not so much as our lifetime.
5:57
But now I understand why people sit that silently.
But when people are sitting silently because of their theological framework, that is scary.
And so I understand now like what my ancestors and what so many of those that built the bridges that we’re on now must have felt and some some inkling.
6:19
But you posted an Italian priest, Cardinal Mateo Zapai, read the names of every child.
Every child has a name because documentation.
These are children that have families that have lives, just like they know the names of the children that were murdered, you know, on October the 7th.
6:39
But these children also have names.
And they were killed by Israel and Gaza.
And it took him 7 hours. 7 hours Jesus.
I mean, even I want us to think about that each year on September the 11th when we remember and we can’t have selective memory where we want to remember the things that, where we feel like we’ve been victimized, but not when we’ve been to the ones that are oppressing, you know?
7:10
And when we read the names of people each September 11th, it takes about 3 hours to read.
I think it’s a little almost 3000 names.
My cousin is one of those names, a family member, a person who had a family, had a daughter, only child who is still left to grieve over 20 years later.
7:33
That doesn’t go away.
But for us to turn a cold heart or to try to validate violence, try to not only validate it, but question and demonize people when they’re mentioned that what is wrong with Christians?
7:55
I mean, because I think as Christians we can hold each other accountable for this.
You know, I can’t speak for any other religion or any anything, but when we talk about followers of Jesus not have a heart is not some compartmentalized segmented faith where we’re supposed to care for one and not the other.
8:19
We’re supposed to care for all.
And so the way we are justifying this, like there will be account given, you know, and so I mean when you posted that, I mean, what are you thinking?
You know, when I when I just read it 7 hours, 7 hours, you know how many names that is?
8:40
If it’s if it takes 3 hours to read about 3000 names, like 7 hours, May God have mercy.
God have mercy.
Yeah.
I mean, the, the heaviness of that and that, that Tasha, you know, that that’s just the names that we know.
8:59
There are, there are thousands, possibly even 10s of thousands of kids that are missing that have died in other places and because of related injuries and illnesses.
But those are the documented names.
And you know, I read some of those and I’ve got a little A1 year old boy.
9:19
You know, Elijah, he’s about almost 2.
And I’m thinking like there’s almost 1000 names of kids his age.
And then you start looking at these age groups, 6 to 10 year olds and there’s thousands of them that and at one point that was the the largest demographic age group of people killed were 6 to 10 year olds.
9:44
And you know, it’s been 1 kid every hour since October 7th.
That’s the average of just children that are that that are killed.
And you start to you start to go, what is going on?
Your like, what’s holding us back?
And there’s a whole historic backdrop.
10:00
So I’m sure we’re going to dive into that.
But to think like love is not a limited resource.
I mean, you spoke out, we all spoke out.
I would hope against the violence of October 7th and Hamas.
It was a hate filled violent act that took, you know, 1200 lives. 38 of those were children and that’s what I mentioned in the in one of the post is like every one of those kids killed in Israel is made in the image of God.
10:27
When I walked through the airport in Tel Aviv, I saw the names in the faces of the hostages, many of whom have now been killed.
Some have been released, Others are still being held hostage.
And you think of their families like we can share that grief and also say every kid in Gaza is just as precious as every kid in Jerusalem or Atlanta.
10:49
My love is not segmented and neither is the guy that we serve and God cares about, you know, those children that died October 7th, but also those children that are dying daily, you know, you know, in Gaza and across this this country.
And so we we, you know, in our world, this individualistic system that we live in is always looking for the black and white and there’s so many things that are Gray.
11:15
There’s so many in betweens the liminal space.
And I think it’s just really important for us to hold to that.
And, you know, and, and all of this, when I, I think when we get to it, it’s like a misrepresentation of Scripture.
11:32
And that has caused so much harm over centuries.
When we think about the genocide of indigenous people, when we think about the Atlantic slave trade, when we think about the killing of the Congolese, you know, like in the Republic of Congo.
11:49
I mean, we can go on and on and name atrocity that that have been caused by biblical illiteracy and especially, but we look at that now, then but now we have so many resources.
Yes.
12:05
Can prove these things wrong as far as scripture interpretation and we are holding on to some scripture that even God did not hold on to that is we think that it’s a blessing of Israel when it was Abraham but I I mean it’s just it’s just absurd to me and that so many people so many Christians have fallen to this.
12:31
I mean people who who even went to seminary like well people went to seminary also like participated in Jim Crow and racial terror and and you know all the other things but I mean what and I know the only way to undo unhealthy theology is through healthy theology.
12:51
What would you say to that like?
Yeah, yeah.
I think it’s exactly the right question, you know, and it’s been really helpful for me to lean in and listen to some of our Christian Palestinian theologians and pastors.
13:08
I mean, there’s a beautiful institution, as you know, in Bethlehem called Bethlehem Bible College, and they do good theology to combat the bad theology.
And some of those folks have really helped me.
Month or Isaac is a really dear friend.
Mitri Rahab is a wonderful theologian, one of the most published Palestinian Christian theologians.
13:29
And that one of some of the language that they’ve helped offer is the Holocaust hermeneutic.
And that’s a big word.
But I think we, you know, those in seminary talk about hermeneutic’s is a way we interpret scripture.
We all interpret Scripture, but because of Western Christianity’s complicity and anti-Semitism, I mean the Holocaust is the obvious one, but it it’s hundreds of years older than that.
13:55
In fact, in rethinking life in my newest book, I have a whole section on one of the original sins of Christianity was anti-Semitism.
It was blaming the Jews for Jesus and some of our earliest thinkers used really terrible, yes, horrible language as they described Jewish people and attributed, you know, rather than the sins of the world and our sins that, you know, Jesus died for, it was the Jews that killed Jesus.
14:21
And this became a way to dehumanize, to even really desecrate, desacralize, you know, like take away the sacredness of their lives.
And we did horrible things to Jewish people.
Some of it was policies.
But then you look at the Holocaust, we certainly paved the way for Hitler with some of that theology.
14:41
But because of all that, we have this baggage, right?
That then gets the way that it it manifests itself is this inability to be critical of the nation state, the contemporary nation state of Israel will people will always use that as a weapon to, you know, anti-Semitism that anything you say against Israel is cursing God.
15:05
And that’s dangerous because what we then begin to do is equate and say and, and give moral immunity and impunity to a nation state that is doing horrible things, things that we would never turn a blind eye to in other places.
15:24
And not only are we turning a blind eye to it, but this is what’s so unique about what’s happening in Israel is the United States is funding and arming that.
So when people say you need to speak about Hamas, I’m like, we do speak out against the violence of Hamas.
But the difference is we are the ones providing the bombs and weapons that are killing these children in Gaza.
15:45
And it wouldn’t happen without the US weapons, but also the US theology, right?
That’s giving sort of a a spiritual blessing of this violence and the inability to speak out against it.
16:00
And I mean it is.
It is so heavy.
And I think I think one of the things that people are not understanding too is this whole conversation around like, there’s a lot of Jewish people, We even have Jewish people who are part of our be the Bridge community who are not in support of what’s happening.
16:22
And so there is, you know, they’re living in a governmental system similar to us when you have half the people that are not supporting the atrocities that are happening, but are but policy wise restricted and the the grab of power that has happened from the fringe groups over decades that has gone on there.
16:43
And so you have people who, you know, like trying to understand the difference of Zionists and what what that is.
And then also there’s probably more Christian Zionists than actual Jewish Zionists.
16:59
And I mean, a lot of Christians, I’ve seen Christians here platform Zionists not really understanding because even how they’ve been taught and scripture in church, it is to be on the side of of, of of of Israel, no matter what.
17:18
I mean, that doesn’t even make sense because because God was never on the side of the Bible the the biblical Israel, no matter what.
I mean, Israel was taken into exile.
Like, like is a they were, they were for not doing justice.
17:36
You know, the justice is equated within the Jewish system.
It’s a part of the making of their faith.
And and so I’ve just seen it.
And So what would you even say to that?
Like just knowing, I think their voices even have to be louder people who are like not supporting and I mean, they’ve been protesting over in Israel, like really protesting.
18:02
But then also kind of like us where, you know, we have to kind of shed ourselves, decenter ourselves and then shed ourselves of this kind of like supremacy mindset.
And that’s a daily work.
What would you say to to that?
18:17
You know, as people who are her listening, who don’t understand the difference, you know, right now and their grief, but they’re also don’t understand where their place should be in this.
Yeah.
So I, I think part of what we’ve got to celebrate, even as we grieve that we have not been able to stop this violence in Gaza, we, we can celebrate that the world has risen up.
18:42
I mean, the biggest protest we’ve seen in decades, maybe ever.
I mean, some of these are 1,000,000 people in the streets and they’re Jewish people among them, right?
They’re rabbis there are committed, deeply committed to their faith.
Many of the Jewish folks in Tel Aviv and in Israel are in the streets.
19:01
And so Rabbis Against Ceasefire, I mean, so many different groups that are seeing their faith distorted, right?
And Christians are the same.
We see people trying to twist theology.
And I mean, one of my mentors said all you got to do is twist the cross and you get a swastika.
19:19
And so we can when we twist theology.
And then Yahoo has done that.
He is an opportunist that has used the Jewish faith to for his own political agenda and pursuit of power and even the organization of gods in the West Bank.
And so we know that that can happen to anything.
19:38
And so it, it, this is not just a political crisis and it is a humanitarian crisis, a man, a human made humanitarian crisis, but it’s also a spiritual crisis when we have many Christians, as you said, that there are more Christian Zionists and Jewish scientists that are using like obscure texts like an Ezekiel of the battle of Gog and Magog to like say.
20:02
Somehow 10s of thousands of precious children just have to die in order for Jesus to return.
It makes a monster out of God and it creates a really messed up theological imagination, right?
So that’s what’s at stake as well.
20:18
I mean, human lives are at stake, but the integrity, the credibility of our faith if our faith doesn’t make us more loving, if it doesn’t make us pursue the things that Jesus talked about, you know, blessing the poor, the the hungry, grieving the peacemakers, right.
20:35
That’s like that’s who God’s blessing.
That’s what our face should make us is more loving.
They will know that we’re Christians by our love.
So when we’ve, it’s like whatever theology you have, if it doesn’t make you more loving, if it doesn’t make us a champion for every human being as a child of God, then there’s something wrong with our theology.
20:54
And I like how, you know, Barbara Brown Taylor, you know, she said, she said, at the end of the day, if I have to choose between loving my theology and loving my neighbor, I’m going to choose to love my neighbor because God never called me to love my theology, you know, so.
If your religion.
21:10
Isn’t making you more loving, it’s not making you more of a protection sector of life without exception, you know, and I, I think that that’s, that’s a problem.
Yeah, yeah.
Thanks for listening to this conversation between Latasha and Shane.
21:26
We are able to put together resources like this because of our incredible donors, our recurring donors, our Blueprint community allow us to do work like.
This if you.
Are one of our incredible recurring donors.
You are invited this Wednesday, December 10th at 7:30 PM to continue this conversation with Latasha and Shane.
21:51
We are hosting a special live Q&A Zoom with them just for you.
Be sure to register at the link in the show notes.
Not a recurring donor yet?
Go to bethebridge.com/give and you can join in on Wednesday’s conversation as well.
22:08
Now keep on listening, because there’s plenty of truth and encouragement to come.
You you said something in the religion news.
You wrote an article last year after the assassination tip on on Trump.
22:24
You said God did not save Donald Trump.
And and then you said, did God save the former president but not those who died instead?
And then you said, and you, you really like a some of this.
Like you said, it really shows a lack of biblical literacy.
22:39
In this article.
You said if God is love, and I am convinced God is love, then God certainly wants all of us to live and flourish, and it breaks God’s heart every time we hurt or kill one another.
Murder is always wrong, going all the way back to the inaugural murder of Cain and Abel.
22:59
With this in mind, we can be sure that God did not save Donald Trump, but not the person killed by mistake.
God did not save Trump for that matter, but not this.
The kids at Sandy Hood are Uvalde.
God did not save some of the Israel hostages, but not the others.
23:18
God does not want thousands of kids in Gaza to die.
God is not a monster.
God did not want people to be killed on October 7th or January the 6th or last night in Butler, PA.
God is the author of life and God is on the side of life.
23:37
God wants us to live and flourish.
Let’s talk about that a little bit right there.
And some of you, if you’re listening, I want you to read like, because you may miss it.
23:52
I I just want you to just skip back 15 seconds and read and listen to it again because that really this is what people think.
Well, sometimes, Tasha, when I hear people say like, I’ve, you know, given up on faith or Christianity, I, I actually lean in and ask a few questions because sometimes I’m not trying to diagnose everybody, but sometimes what I find is that people haven’t necessarily given up on all Christianity, but they have given up on a theological construct that just doesn’t work.
24:27
It’s got too many holes in it is too constrictive, it’s too small for God, right.
So when I hear people say, you know, like literally some of this goes back to I heard a pastor responding to why a 14 year old girl was raped, sexually assaulted and raped and basically said God has had this happen for a reason.
24:51
And that’s that’s messed up, right?
That that’s some real messed up theology because, but part of what it comes from is when we is when we have this idea that what God is all powerful and all control, all controlling, then that wouldn’t happen unless God wanted it to.
25:06
And the problem is we’re trying to understand something that’s bigger than our minds.
So sometimes when people say I’ve given up on, they like they given up on Calvinism, right?
They given up on one like 1 theological construct.
So where where my technology is a little bit more like God works through the cracks of everything, right?
25:26
Like like like a GPS, God has got it recalibrating with us, like redirecting.
And so there’s always room for human choices, for human sin and and God is loving.
So God allows us not just to be robots, but to choose.
And sometimes we choose really terrible decisions.
25:43
So was it God’s will for someone to try to kill Donald Trump?
No, that’s sinful, it’s evil.
Was it God’s will for children in Uvalde or Sandy Hook to die?
No, Gosh, you know, I but even like I look at scripture.
25:59
David raped a woman named Bathsheba, right, And killed Uriah, her husband.
And that was not God’s will.
But God worked through the cracks of that and through repentance and through healing.
God’s love was bigger than David’s sin.
26:15
And so that’s my theology.
Yes, that was really repentance.
Come on.
Yes, yeah, David repented.
Yes.
And so, but there were still some consequences that had me delivered from that sin.
26:33
And we we, we forget that, you know, and, and, and a lot of it because I’ve even heard people compare Trump to David.
I’m like, wait, he’s unrepentant, like basically didn’t feel like there’s a need to repent, like he said that, you know, And so that’s that’s just really the thing with dealing with people in these belief systems and just how people have been disciple informed is just it’s, it’s so much bigger than ourselves.
27:03
But I think one of the things I’m grateful for is that it is all coming to the light.
You know, this darkness is in the light.
Know what we’re dealing with.
It’s always been a it’s always been a underbelly, but it’s always been here because our ancestors have lived with this, but it’s been a it kind of goes underground and then it resurfaces, goes on the ground resurfaces you, you, you use this scripture you say you said here in Isaiah two of three through 5.
27:43
It says many peoples will come and say come, let us go into the mountain Lord to the temple of God of Jacob Jacob.
He would teach us his ways so that we may walk in the past.
The law will not go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
He will judge between the nations and I will settle disputes for many peoples.
28:01
They will beat their swords and and pile and their Spears into pony hooks.
Nation will not take up a sword against nation nor will they train for any for war anymore.
Come descendants of Jacob, let us walk in the light of the Lord.
28:16
We’ll we’ll talk about that.
Let’s.
Talk about it.
Let’s talk about it.
We’ll talk about that.
The part and verse 4 about beating swords into plowstairs has become central to the work that you do.
How did raw tools get started?
28:32
And can you tell our community about some of that work that you’re doing?
But you see, that’s the stuff we pick and choose things, you know, because it, it’s like when you can you it’s like all the scriptures that people use for balance.
They it contradicts itself with the overarching purpose, like of scripture of our faith, like it kind of so, you know, you picking and choosing like they did with, you know, to justify enslavement, genocide, to take it up land, like all of these things.
29:07
But then we skip over stuff like this.
Right.
We skip right over it.
I’ve sometimes said the problem’s not just fundamentalist, it’s selective fundamentalist, right.
I want some fundamentalists that’ll take the jubilee seriously.
Right, All about.
29:23
Come on.
Yeah, we’re going to beat some swords in the plows if we’re a fundamentalist.
So let’s let’s just be a little bit more consistent.
Opposite because it’s about, because underneath that fundalism is, is, is about control and, and, and power.
29:41
And I would, I would say also white power, you know, and so when, when you talk about, you know, having this fundalistic view of justice and righteousness, you know, that’s about surrender.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.
It totally is.
And just to pick up on what you’re saying with that verse, here’s what’s interesting, Tyson.
29:59
When I read that, there’s a few things that strike me.
I mean, obviously there’s the, the converting of tools of death into tools of life, reimagining a world, you know, where we live without fear, we live safely.
But what’s also interesting is according to that prophetic vision, the change doesn’t come from the top, but it comes from the bottom.
30:17
Come on, somebody right like I, it literally is not kings and presidents and prime ministers and legislators that lead us to peace.
They keep leading us into the wars.
It’s the people, the people of God who get fed up with violence.
They get tired of seeing their babies killed.
30:34
And they began to recraft the tools of death and the tools of life and they lead us towards that vision, right?
Like so I think that’s it’s powerful.
The implications when it comes to gun violence or what’s happening in Gaza is sometimes I think we throw our hands up at God and we say, God, why don’t you do something?
30:53
And if we listen careful, we can hear God say, I did do something.
I made you.
I mean, you literally are my hands and feet.
You are my prophetic people in the world, which is why I think God’s judgement is so harsh on the ancient Israelites is you have a vocation.
You’re not just chosen without any responsible stability, like you are chosen to show the world what a Society of love and compassion looks like.
31:17
And when you don’t do that, the consequences are harsh.
That’s why it’s so dangerous just to say, you know, without any responsibility that that Israel’s just blessed with, you know, without any, any, you know, kind of requirements for that, that what it means to be chosen.
31:35
So when I look at that, you know, this idea of reimagining the world, I think it also changes the way that we live if we believe that the story that God is telling is that we’re going to turn from violence to peace.
Like what?
31:50
What does it look like to be the peacemakers, to be the people of God that are building that, you know, Walter Brueggemann’s, but where’s that prophetic imagination to live into that?
I mean, we did take that literally.
We’re fundamentalist in that sense that we, we said we don’t have a lot of swords in the US, but we got more guns and people.
32:07
So let’s start, let’s start transforming them.
And you know, it’s been 15 years or so, Tasha, since we at our first, our first gun, which was an AK47 that was donated and we repurposed it and we turned it into a shovel and a rake.
32:23
And we’ve been making garden tools ever since.
So we get the name Raw Fools from flipping the word war around backwards.
And that’s what we do.
We we try to repurpose guns and we we chop them up all the time.
But we sometimes say that making transforming the guns is the easy part.
32:43
We’re also like transforming hearts.
We’re reimagining policies.
And every time we turn a gun into a garden tool, we’re saying all things can be made new.
And what’s true of metal is also true of human beings.
Someone even like David, who is a womanizer and and serial abuser is not beyond redemption, but it does come with repentance.
33:07
And that’s also why we say that’s why the metal has to go into the forge so it can be soft and softened up and re crafted.
So yeah, there’s a few sermons in there, Tasha, but I’m.
Hearing it, I’m hearing it.
I mean, you know, earlier this year in May, you were part of a group of people and you were getting into some good trouble.
33:26
I’m saying you were, you were praying at the Capitol.
You were praying in the capital and you were arrested.
Can you walk us through that event?
And what does courage look like right now?
Because I’m, I’m telling you, it’s not that I wanted you to be arrested, but it did something to my heart to see that as a, as a white man putting your body on the line like that and the way you always express courage and bonus, I think we talk about that a lot, you know, be bold and courageous.
34:00
And, you know, we, we quote that scripture a lot, but you know, when in the face of atrocities and, and things that are happening across the globe now, I hear so much silence from some of the same people that will quote that scripture of being bold and courageous.
34:17
Because when it is going to cost them something, if it’s going to cost them members, if it’s going to cost them money, if it’s going to cost them time, like people get solid.
And I know we all have a role to play in different roles because some people are financiers of the work, like some people on the front lines, you know, some people are under, you know, like I know that there is different roles that we’re all going to play and everybody’s not going to be on the front lines being arrested.
34:44
But some people, I don’t think they’re trying to disregard and ignore what’s happening and thinking that it’s business as usual.
And so those business as usual people, it’s been really disheartening to see brothers and sisters in the faith that are just carrying on like it’s business as usual.
35:05
So walk us through a little bit of of that event and talk to me about what courage looks like for Christians today.
Well, there’s, there’s, I think there’s, it’s important that the backdrop of this is there’s, you know, such a rich tradition of the good trouble and the kind of prophetic witness.
35:32
And I think of Doctor King, you know who I mean, he said that red lights, traffic lights are good things, you know, but when there’s a fire blazing, the emergency vehicles go through the red lights at top speed in order to try to save lives and put out the fire.
35:50
And right now there are fires burning that we need emergency brigades.
We need to like, not just do business as usual.
And that was I think the urgency that we felt with on so many fronts.
I mean, I think there’s literally a fire blazing in Gaza right now that we are funding and fueling the massacre of people.
36:09
But there’s also like the flip side of that domestically, that even as our war budget hits a trillion dollars, unimaginable amount of money being spent on militarism and war, we’re cutting the the the resources that are most needed to the most vulnerable people.
36:28
And this is not an issue of left and right, but right and wrong, as as our friend Reverend William Barber says.
And so, you know, we were a part of that witness that Reverend Barber and Jonathan and other clergy had gone in and prayed in the capital.
And so we decided to keep that prayerful presence.
36:45
And our goal was never to get arrested.
Our goal was to press upon people, as Reverend Barbara says, to arrest the heart of the nation, that there’s a lot at stake right now and the lie the real lives of people in need of healthcare are there.
We centered those voices in the rally that we had before, folks that will lose their healthcare, folks who’s are really vulnerable, people that are, you know, things like we just all summer long gave out lunches.
37:11
You know, that’s a partnership with the city, the kids as they’re out of school, things like school lunches and SNAP and healthcare like.
And literally Jesus couldn’t be more clear that in Matthew 25, all the nations, it said, will be gathered before God and we will be judged not by our theology and doctrinal statements or but by how we care for the most vulnerable, the least of these.
37:34
And so as we prayed in the capital, we were detained and arrested.
We literally were just praying.
We were not blocking doors.
We were not obstructing.
But it’s illegal for some people, not for all people, because Shawn Floyd and some other folks have had entire revival services in there.
37:50
But when we prayed, we were given a warning and we were arrested.
And, you know, face the possibility of charges for that.
But you know, I think of that what Doctor King also taught is he said, when I first went to jail, I was troubled.
But then I looked at history and saw what good what good company I have.
38:08
You know, that like the prophets, Jesus, so many others, they ruffled the feathers.
They were a part of saying this is not OK.
And when Doctor King was told he was maladjusted, he said maybe I am maladjusted.
There’s some things we do not want to be adjusted to and we do.
38:25
We have become way too comfortable with the a world where a handful of people have, I mean, literally now less than 20 billionaires and millionaires have the same amount of wealth as half of the world’s population.
And now we have some of those folks that have been taking resources from the most vulnerable people even as they have wealth that we cannot even fathom.
38:49
So this is an issue that goes to the heart of our faith.
I mean, stories like the rich man and Lazarus, they’re getting lived out in real time, you know?
Right, right.
It’s not true circling now people are laying off like you know, and so I think that’s the thing that people have to have to realize.
39:07
I’m so grateful for you.
I’m so grateful for your.
Heart you too.
I want you to just tell us what is giving you hope in the midst of everything that is going on right now.
Yeah, well, I mean, I love that old, that old hymn.
39:23
My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus, you know, and his righteousness and, you know, the blood of Christ, like all other grounds.
Sinking sand.
There’s a lot of sinking sand.
So our our hope is in Jesus.
But it’s also in the fact that we’re the body of Christ, that we’re not alone in the world.
And that’s good news to the suffering families in the West Bank and Gaza.
39:42
It’s good news to all of us.
It’s good news to my neighbors who are I’m concerned about the future.
It’s good news to the folks in in the neighborhood right across the river here that just got raided by ICE, a family with five children, that their future is at stake in the church.
The entire church has come around to protect them.
39:59
So like we, we’ve got to remind each other that we’re not alone, that we’re going to be courageous together.
And courage is contagious, just like fear is.
Courage is contagious, so I am.
Excited we’re trying to build spaces where people can come together.
40:14
So you know, it may be, I don’t know the timing of when this will come out, but in September on the 11th, we’ll be hosting a gathering of, of Christian Palestinian voices in Illinois.
And so even if it, you know, if you, if you missed that, you can see all those talks online.
40:31
It’s going to be amazing to hear from these folks that for the first time we’ve had a gathering like this in the United States.
So it’s called Church at the crossroads.
Best place to go really is to redletterchristians.org.
And you can see upcoming events that are there, But we’re going to keep doing it, Tasha.
40:48
And anytime I can team up with you and the wonderful work that you’re doing, I’m all in.
So always good to be together.
I thank you brother.
I am so glad to be walking this earth and living and braving with same claim board here.
41:06
This, you know, I, I, I keep, you know, sometimes you can get so disheartened and discouraged and I keep asking God to show me the opportunities that that I need to see, you know, and I think this is presenting a, a gospel opportunity, opportunity like, you know, for, for the life of Jesus to be displayed in his people.
41:31
And I, and I think it’s really showing like, as far as like, you know, what good theology is, what bad theology is.
And I think I’m praying that this is maybe the the kind of like the imploding of that, you know, because it’s just, it’s just in the basis in our country for so long, you know, and other countries are looking in and seeing and like, Oh my goodness, we, you know, so it’s waking up some other other things where people can rightfully identify this, I would say the heresy that that we have here in our country.
42:07
So thank you so much for joining us on the Be the Bridge podcast.
We are grateful for your work and just so grateful for you and and your and your life.
And hug that 2 year old.
I will.
I will thank you so much and we think the world to you.
42:25
I can’t wait to keep doing stuff together.
So thanks, Tasha.
Thanks for listening everybody.
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge Podcast.
To find out more about Be the Bridge and what we offer, visit bethebridge.com.
Partner with us in this work at bethebridge.com/give, Connect with us on social media, and remember, you are not alone in your pursuit of righteousness and justice.
42:49
Latasha Morrison is the executive producer, Sarah Connatser is the producer, and transcripts are done by a wonderful team of volunteers.
Thanks for listening.
Leave A Comment