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In this episode, we take BTB into the MCU with a conversation between Dion Evans and Cole Middleton as they explore the intersection of superheroes, cultural representation, and racial reconciliation. They discuss the importance of entertainment as a means of taking care of yourself, the significance of diverse characters like Black Panther, and the complexities faced by Sam Wilson as Captain America.
The conversation delves into the societal implications of these narratives and how they reflect real-world issues of justice and identity. They talk about Stan Lee’s intentionality in creating these characters. They also critique the trend of race swapping in superhero films. Ultimately, Dion and Cole highlight the importance of representation in pop culture in helping individuals feel seen and understood.
Join in the conversation on our social media pages on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn to let us know your thoughts on this episode!
Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison
Producer – Sarah Connatser
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Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.
*this was transcribed by Spotify and has not been checked for errors
0:02
Welcome to the Be the Bridge podcast.
Be the Bridge exists to empower people and culture toward racial healing, equity, and reconciliation.
Latasha Morrison founded Be the Bridge in 2016 to foster needed dialogue and brave spaces and to give people the tools to pursue racial justice.
0:22
We provide resources and community to do just that, and this podcast is one of those resources.
You’ll hear interviews hosted by Latasha and our team, conversations about current events, and encouragement for your racial literacy journey.
Thank you for listening, subscribing and engaging in this important work.
0:43
Hey, we the Bridge family.
How are you all doing?
Hope you are doing amazing today as you are watching this.
I am super pumped, super excited about today’s podcast episodes.
A little bit of a departure from the norm and we’ll get into that in a minute and what we’re going to be talking about.
But before we do, I want to just introduce our panel.
1:00
I guess it’s just me and one of the persons.
So it’s not the panel so much, but we’ll get into it anyway.
First, I want to introduce Cole Middleton to the podcast.
Cole, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Introduce yourself to the people today.
What’s up, everybody?
Yeah, like Mr. Dion said, my name is Cole Middleton.
1:17
I am a senior at Anderson University.
I’m about to graduate a month from today with a degree of political science.
I play basketball at Anderson, so I’m going to get my master soon too, ’cause they’re going to pay for it.
1:35
So yes, you know, we’ll we’ll see where, where, where the Lord takes me.
But man, I just I love having conversation about racial reconciliation, talking about unity and bridge building, but through the limbs of a believer and how Christ would do it.
1:53
And then, you know, obviously I love sports, I love basketball, I play basketball.
I want to be a pro one day.
And man, superheroes is like a whole another side of me that not a lot of people know about.
So I’m super pumped to to talk.
2:09
Very cool.
Very cool.
And he was humble.
He said he plays basketball.
He’ll just play basketball.
I play basketball.
He he, he, he, he got game, he got a bag.
All the stuff you associate with basketball, Cole Milton brings it to the hardwood.
So I am Dion.
2:24
Cole called me Mr. Dionne.
Make me sound real old.
But I guess the Gray hair kind of backs it up.
So my name is Dionne.
Evans I was raised, you know my all.
Good.
All good, All good.
I’ll take it.
I’ll take it.
So I am married, father of three.
I am a pastor here in Gwinnett County, Georgia, suburban Georgia, and I’m into a lot of stuff.
2:47
But I am a comic book nerd.
I am a Marvel nerd.
Everybody that knows me, even my own church, I mean, I will quote movies, how many sermons they’ve I’ve got to have movie examples from Marvel movies.
So I am am for this conversation.
3:03
And it’s a little bit of a departure from what we usually do and be the bridge, but not really.
Because many times you’ll hear be the Bridge podcast, Latasha Morrison and others will be on other guests and they’ll be talking about maybe some of the finer points of justice or even right now what we have going on in the world.
3:18
We have so many conversations we could be having about justice and about injustice.
We could talk about the Smithsonian, but we don’t want to go there right now.
But we are going to be talking about super heroes and the MCU and representation in the superhero world.
3:35
So all kind of different stuff we’re going to talk about with the time that we have today.
And I’m I’m excited, Cole’s excited.
Let’s jump into it.
We got a few things to discuss, some questions and things like that.
And when you’re watching this, listen, subscribe to this podcast, comment on this podcast.
3:50
When you watch this, all the good things comment and chime in to let us know we’re not the only nerds and geeks out there who love comic books and love superheroes.
So a quick question before we jump into like the justice sides of it and things of that nature.
Cole, who is your essential talking about MCU, I’m sure.
4:07
I mean, this is the fandom because there’s MCU and there’s DC, EU and so that there’s a Marvel and DC rivalry there that a lot of people have.
We’re not going to get to the rivalry today because again, Cole’s about unity and justice.
So with so if you’re looking at Marvel or DC, but Marvel more specifically, since that’s going to be kind of where we’re going today.
4:27
Who would you say is your favorite comic book character?
Man, that’s a that’s a tough.
I have a top five.
But yeah, for for Marvel, I’d probably just have to go with Tatala, the Black Panther OG.
4:43
I mean, he just just seeing him grow up.
This is him.
Right here.
I can’t.
I can’t reach mine right up.
Matter of fact.
Come on man.
Already already got.
Him.
5:00
Already got him name 1 mine does poses.
I bought this when the actually I don’t know if my parents got it for me, but also PSA I’m I’m also like I’m a way more way bigger DC fan than I am for for a number of reasons.
5:18
The live action movies are not as good DC live action movies are not as good as Marvel the.
Animated is fire.
Yes, the animated stuff.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Black Black Panther, for sure.
I mean, I, you know, I love Captain America.
5:36
I love all the like Falcon, Yeah.
Black Panthers?
Black Panthers, your guy.
Yes, Black Panthers, my guy.
OK, well my guy and I since day one, this is my guy right here.
This is.
My, that’s fair.
5:51
Like in the back of me, there’s a little picture in the back from Iron Man.
I got my Iron Man watch on the day just to represent with the arc reactor.
That’s the Iron Man 2 arc reactor.
But no, I love Iron Man.
And you mentioned DC, Like for DC, Superman’s my guy Khalil.
6:07
That’s from day one.
Christopher Reeve Carlisle Major myself.
So I love that.
But as we’re talking about the Marvel Cinematic Universe and like justice and those kind of things right now, we mentioned, we kind of alluded to everything that’s happening right now in the world in the current administration, just not even just locally, but globally is is going crazy.
6:28
So when it comes to that, we look at what’s happening in the world.
Why do you think it’s important?
And I know I feel this way when I go to the movies, especially.
I’m about to go see Thunderbolts when it comes out.
So let’s go.
Why do you think it’s important to have these kinds of fantasy worlds to escape to?
6:46
Man, that’s a.
That’s a loaded question.
I feel like all the questions are going to be kind of loaded.
For sure.
We’re here for it, though.
We’re here for it.
We’re here for it.
To, to me, it’s important just because I feel like it’s, it’s a very, it kind of allows for your imagination to run wild.
7:05
You kind of get to enjoy your childhood and your youth.
The older you get.
Like for me, I grew up with a lot of these characters and a lot of the stuff in the real world.
You know, we like, we know we live in a fallen world.
7:20
So a lot of the stuff, you know, I I see is kind of heartbreaking.
I hear a lot of stories just just from other believers about things that they went through and even things in my own life.
And you know, when you do the the reality of all of that, like it can be super duper heavy.
7:36
And I think you have to be careful.
It’s a thin line because and don’t too much into, you know, a world that isn’t real become somewhat of an addiction.
And I’ve also like struggle with that like thing myself, you know, into, into the world of Marvel and DC as opposed at the feet of Jesus, right.
7:58
But yeah, for sure, you know, at the same time, I do believe it is good to have those outlets.
You know, for some people, it’s video games.
For some people it’s it’s music, fun people with other like art forms.
And for me, one of those is, you know, comics and not as much comics, but definitely movies and TV shows regarding superheroes because it just it just allows it gives my brain a break.
8:23
It allows me to to be a kid again to, you know, get to imagine.
And man, if I was this character faced with this tough situation, I make that decision, you know, do I have?
And then it’s inspiring because these, you know, care shorts are reflections of of real life.
8:39
You know, art inspires life or.
Right.
Yeah.
I think that’s the the same goes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OK, that’s awesome.
And I agree with all that 100%.
I think I think it’s kind of a it’s a thin line.
I know you mentioned like the when us kind of escaping and kind of being able to have some mindless fun a little bit with heroes and different things like that.
9:02
But it’s funny on the MCU side especially, and I think Stanley did this on purpose.
It feels like when you’re when you’re watching Marvel stuff though, there’s so much, even though it’s fantasy and it’s has a sense of escapism, there’s so much that relates to like where we are right now.
9:22
I mean, whether you’re talking about the X-Men, don’t get you started.
If we talk about the X-Men, that’s a whole other podcast talking about.
The X-Men.
X-Men by itself is like.
Listen, if it’s just the excellent, that’s a whole other conversation.
But for sure, I mean, when you look at, even when you mentioned loving to childhood, when you look at the underlying themes of Black Panther and the the the mere fact that they hadn’t been colonialized and all these different things there, There’s so much that we can look at in our own spaces that kind of.
9:56
So it’s kind of an escapism that doesn’t just pull us away, but brings us back with maybe some extra tools that we may even got from a comic book because especially since things are so cyclical.
But I did, I did one thing that you said really though, that kind of hit it on the head that you, you mentioned that sometimes you can get wrapped up and some of the, the, the fantasy and the escapism of it.
10:23
And it can.
Keep you from the foot of the foot of Jesus, right?
So it can keep you from a place of really coming to see, OK, what God?
How am I mobilized?
What am I doing?
You know, how am I humbling myself?
How am I worshiping to kind of enact even what I’m saying, even when it comes to justice?
10:39
There’s a, you know, I just tell folk all the time and we look at civil rights movements and things like that.
We go to Alabama and talk about civil rights.
They would have, they would do prayer meetings and they would gather in the church and then they would go March.
You know, the, the church they gathered at before marching at the Edmund Pettus was right around the corner from Edmund Pettus.
10:56
So it’s like we, so I, I think you’re the deposition you make or even the balance you make of saying, Hey, we can be escaped.
We can escape and we can do this.
But hey, it’s, we’re grounded in something bigger.
We’re grounded in something more, more authentic, more powerful.
Jesus is our, you know, he’s our he’s our engine.
11:13
So I love that when we look at these characters and this is going to be right up your alley.
When we look at these characters, we got so we talked about Iron Man, we talked about different other character.
We talked about your favorite with Charlotte, Black Panther.
When we look at Black Panther, why do you think characters like a Black Panther are Rest in Peace Chadwick Bozeman, Rest in Peace Brothers and why?
11:34
Why are characters like Black Panther so important to culture?
Man, I mean honestly, honestly.
Don’t get me started, will you?
Will you need them?
I feel like, you know, if, if art imitates reality, right, and life, then that has to be true across the board.
11:53
So I feel like in comics and in movies, especially in the like late 20th century, you just everybody’s just white and like a lot of the women in you know, like superhero like films that live action stuff and, and, you know, animated are very sexualized.
12:11
And even in comics like their roots, you know, there’s there’s a lot of that.
But when you see, you know, more diverse characters and and like Miss Marvel, Kamala Khan, she’s one of my favorite.
She’s an inhuman even though the MCU heard a mutant which is interesting but.
12:32
We see what’s yeah with black both.
She was like listen bro.
I know.
No, it was the the way the MCU has done or the way Kevin Feige has done in Humans and and X-Men.
I don’t.
12:47
I guess he didn’t have legal rights to X-Men at the time.
Yeah, but.
Well, I mean it.
X-Men is supposed to be coming, you know.
Yeah, they’re gearing up for it.
Yeah, but it’s it’s super important to, you know, have those characters because I mean it at least speaking on behalf of minorities.
13:02
And just from my experience, like I felt really seen, you know, when you get to explore the the reality and, and the life and all of the the different aspects of characters like a Falcon and a Black Panther and a Kamala Khan, who maybe it’s you know, she’s a she’s a girl and she’s Pakistani, but growing up like she was a young teenager when she got her powers.
13:25
And I imagine myself to be a lot like that.
Like she named after her favorite superhero character, Captain Marvel.
And you know, that’s how she got her name.
Miss Marvel eeks out anytime there’s like some kind of superhero team up and you know, like that.
13:41
I see myself in that and like, you know, the reality of being faced with tough decisions, you know, when you’re a teenager.
Same thing with Peter Parker, right?
Like Spider.
Yeah.
A big part of his character, him having to grow up fast and dealing with, you know, the death of his Uncle Ben and, you know, other important adult or authoritative figures in his life, especially the MCU Tom Holland, Peter Parker.
14:06
He lost everybody, which is that was bad.
But yeah, those.
Don’t nobody remember.
Yeah, yeah, No, I think that I think that’s dope because I think you threw a little bit of A twist in there because there’s obviously the cultural representation.
14:22
We talk about things like Black Panther, but you even want to step further with Kamala Khan and with Peter Parker and these heroes that are teenagers.
So now there’s there’s this this weight and responsibility of the world and these this gift or or this this being in a human or this, this having mutant powers, whatever it is of these kids, not only how do I wrestle this power, but I mean, Uncle Ben said it with great power because great responsibility.
14:47
So now that I got this power on me, how do I interact?
You know, what are my limits?
What do I do?
I’m still a teenager, but so how do I be a hero and be a teenager?
So I think yeah, that’s great that you brought that up when you were you.
I’ll say where you wanted the ones when Black Panther came out.
15:03
Did did y’all go full on Wakanda at the movie theater?
Yes, yeah.
So no, like I was wearing like all black and I didn’t, you know, we didn’t go out and like buy dashikis and and all.
Of.
Like we, we didn’t, I wish we would have done that, but I mean, it was, you know, we all like went to see it.
15:23
We went to this Boosie Theater and like one of them theaters that’s like Loki, a restaurant.
And we, you know, we, we did it up.
I went to but Oh yeah, great.
It was a great movie.
And Wakanda Forever, also great.
I think that’s big because it’s like one of those things where I think a lot of people can look at that and and I actually had they they definitely did this when when that was happening, People would be like, why y’all doing so much and why why you’re doing so much?
15:51
Why is that important like that?
But I also know when people, when people go to Comic Con, people dress up like that for people who are not representing you at all.
As much I love Superman, none, nobody, none of y’all are ever going to be Superman.
There’s no representation there of anybody for Superman.
16:07
But they’ll dress up like that.
They’ll dress up like the Boba Fett or someone from, you know, and or whatever.
But when, when we do it from when we did it for Black Panther, it was looked at as like why it’s not wasn’t just a fandom for us.
It was like this cultural representation thing we’ve been waiting for and we knew what it would represent.
16:24
And I think that played is a larger part into how and culture it happens for many times for black folks.
Like why y’all doing so much?
Why you guys so excited?
It’s like because we don’t always get to see stuff and culture that really represents and screams out to us.
16:41
I mean I think that is that’s awesome.
And one thing I think the thing that spurned is about this podcast was the most recent, you know, Captain America movie brave new world, which is was new World order before they switched it because, you know, politics in real life.
16:57
So but they but that was kind of the the push for this podcast jumping into this and what what what do you think?
What are your thoughts on Ananda?
Did you watch?
Did you, did you see the new captain?
America.
I saw that and I saw the show on Disney.
17:14
And that’s that’s how that’s my second question.
Did you watch Falcon and Winter Soldier?
Because there is this there’s a speech that Sam gives at the end of Falcon of Winter Soldier after the flag smash has been captured.
All this stuff happened.
He talks.
So I think one of the senators, somebody in Congress and it goes viral in the news and everything.
17:32
But there and then throughout the series, when he comes in contact with Isaiah Bradley in the series, he was there, Bradley kind of introduces him to the the tension between this super soldier serum and what it makes you into.
But I’m still a black man in America.
17:49
So what are your thoughts on from the TV show to the newest movie?
Because we even see it in the new movie when he’s when he’s experiencing that bristle, he’s he’s owning it.
He’s owning the shield, He’s owning the thing Now he’s you know, Steve Rogers gave him gave him the green light.
18:04
He’s owning it.
But it’s still a a struggle for him.
It’s still a tension for him and even tension between Thunderbolt, Thunderbolt Ross and him and other people who see him as he’s Captain America, but you still a Negro.
So what do you think about that tension that he experienced there with between being Sam Wilson but being actual Captain America?
18:26
Well, first let me start by saying I love because I didn’t know a whole lot about Isaiah Bradley’s character.
Yeah, like before watching the show, But yeah, me.
Neither before watching the show.
Very little.
Very.
Little it was.
It was such a, it was such a good addition and such a good reflection of, of reality.
18:45
It made me think of what is the term?
There was a lot of, Oh my gosh, the term where like they would do experiments on, on black people to try and like breed, like the perfect think of the right word.
19:00
But it was a, it was a very like popular thing amongst like white doctors in the medical field around like the 20s and 30s.
It was a, it was a woman who was very, like prominent in that field.
I forget what the word is.
It’ll come to me later and shout it.
19:17
And.
But anyways, but it just, it just reminded me of that like, because, you know, a lot of people don’t like to see that tension being held.
Yeah.
And, you know, again, it goes back to this reflection of, right, like the reality of our world and fantasy world.
19:37
And it’s super interesting to see people in social media, you know, comment and make videos about how they don’t want to see stuff like that.
And, you know, there’s different.
There’s there’s a comic book series when Bucky gets the shield and, you know, yeah.
And it, it kind of makes me feel a little upset because it’s like, man, like black people, like, you know, can’t never get a win.
20:00
But then you know when, when, when he got the shield and just.
The whole like storyline, I just felt, I felt like they did his character justice, You know, it was, it was good to see that.
I don’t like that, you know, they’re, they didn’t trust like the US senators.
20:20
They didn’t trust Sam Wilson with, I guess, the responsibilities of being Captain America as much as they did Steve Rogers, which even though Steve Rogers, I guess, was considered a criminal for a few years after Civil War.
Yeah, he he, he won no parts of it in Infinity War.
20:39
He had the all black on.
He had the the cows from Rakanda on his.
But it but it’s it was more so like the I think the people judging him like knowing that, you know, he’s he’s not he’s not like the real Captain America.
20:57
And you know that that was just that was kind of super tough because it’d be like, man, if this was all this was all real.
That is exactly how people would react, You know, like they would want.
I forget what US agents.
I want to say Sam Walker.
21:12
I’m not sure if that was his name but but you Walker the.
Last name for.
Sure, they would want, they would want his, you know, his character to be the Captain America.
And I thought that was such a like such a side like side move That was that was crazy that they like gave him the shield.
21:29
Sam gave him the shield to, you know, keeping a museum.
When they turned around, immediately gave it to another white right.
And like didn’t see.
Who didn’t get no?
Who didn’t get no Flack until he murdered somebody on TV?
Like that was, but that was crazy.
21:44
Yeah, you made a.
A great point though, man, because there’s this tension that we hold in America.
I mean, James Baldwin off and writes about that tension and he talked about he mentioned I’m paraphrase, he had a quote saying the reason why I why I critique America is because I love America.
22:02
It’s like, you know, he’s like, I love it here.
I love America, love this country.
That’s why I critique her so much, so harsh, because I know there’s something else that’s better that she can be.
But the crazy part is like you just mentioned, and I didn’t even think about that part until now.
You meant that they didn’t even they didn’t, I knew it like from that senator’s point of view, and even for Thunderbolt Ross’s point of view, that they didn’t, they didn’t trust fully Sam Wilson to be Captain America.
22:28
And.
It’s like even though you’re Captain America, the Captain America, Steve Rogers said.
You’re Captain America, so.
So the man handed the baton and said, you’re the man now.
And they still weren’t trusting him.
22:43
And it make me it makes me feel like, man, you are killing me.
I mean that that point you brought up can really just they got my wheels turning because I think about how even in our own country, you know, you, we grow up under the impression of having to be to be twice as good.
23:01
Yes.
Right.
Yes, we or or the OR the respectability politics when when when a black.
Man wants to like just give in and give up.
Which Sam?
We see Sam struggle.
With yeah, you.
Know when he like, has to deal with the testimony of Isaiah Bradley and he’s like, man, I’m not worthy.
23:22
I’m just going to put this in the museum, just like no Steve, Steve Rogers chose you and we there’s, you know, there’s some of that within the black community and American.
That’s 100%, man.
It’s just like it’s like there’s there’s this lack of trust because I’m not Steve Rogers, but it’s it speaks and this is what I think Stanley just set us up just with these characters in there, like the culture it speaks to because we talked about AUS agent not being caught catching any shade until he’s decapitating a flag smasher with the with the shield.
23:52
Imagine that and what that represents even has is that what America does to people that rebel whole another podcast, but then even you know with them you mentioned about them wanting Bucky Now I love Bucky.
He his redemption arc is almost as good as Tony Stark’s.
24:07
Not quite though, but his redemption arc is crazy.
But so y’all what y’all wanted him?
Whoever people in the comments wanted Bucky, even though we know for a fact he has destabilized governments.
He has assassinated people for all these years.
He only been straight for a minute, but y’all wanted to reach out because you don’t want a black man.
24:27
Listen, you’re you don’t open up a can of worms.
That’s a lot and what you said.
So when you saw in game, did you see in game like with friends, with your family, when you went to go see it?
I saw it with friends in in the.
OK, OK, OK, so we, I saw what with the family, we went to go see it.
24:44
Now remember next to Cap picking up millionaire, I think these things probably go 1:00 and 2:00 depending on you know, what day it’s like Kobe or MJ, depending on what day it is one or two.
I think next to the the the millionaire scene when he picks it up, because everybody knew that Steve could pick up the hammer.
25:05
He just hadn’t done it.
There’s a scene and he’s fighting Thanos and Thanos is opening up a can on Steve.
I mean, the shield is broken in half.
He’s about, he’s about to give up the ghost.
He’s about to die.
But you know Steve’s motto.
I can do this all day.
And right when that happens, when he’s about to, he’s lacing back up to keep on fighting, but he’s on his last leg and then he’s like on your left, which is a call back obviously to when he first.
25:32
Match.
When he was running circles around him in DC and so he’s on your left, but the first you see the portal’s beginning to open.
And so you see Falcon flies up through the top and then you see Black Panther and Sherry and then like everybody in Wakanda coming in and there’s you got other heroes, obviously, you know, I mean, Howard the Duck is there, which you got all the other heroes that come through, but you got Falcon and you got the Wakandans showing up there.
26:00
And then you get the, the obviously the, the plethora of heroes.
And then there we got The Avengers assemble with which we been waiting for Cap to say forever.
But what did that make you?
Like what did that do for you, if anything?
But like, what was the feeling in that moment between you and your friends or whatever, just a theater when you saw like that, that community of heroes, namely being Falcon and then the Wakandans upfront kind of coming and supporting in that way or kind of coming and having Caps back in that way?
26:31
Well, first I just remembered the term I was thinking of was eugenics.
That’s what.
It was, ah, eugenics.
Yes, eugenics.
That’s that’s what the word was, but and then it was John Walker, not Sam Walker, but man, that scene, that scene gave me goosebumps.
That was by far my like favorite all time MCU scene, yes, like the soundtrack or I guess that specific like music, you know, audio or whatever, just going along perfectly with like Sam flying in the different portals are opening and you know, you’ve got the the guardians and the Wakandans and the other Avengers and you know, even other like heroes that aren’t technically Avengers and and then, you know, Ant man explodes from the ground.
27:18
Yeah, yeah, with rocket raccoons and.
You’ve got the I forget what army it was because you have the Wakandan army.
There’s another army.
There were all the sorcerers that came through.
Yeah, there were the sorcerers, there were the Wakandans.
There were, but I’m talking about the one from Guardians of the Galaxy.
27:36
What planet was that that they were on?
The Ravagers were there.
The Ravagers.
Yeah.
Yeah, I know.
I can’t think of the planet you’re talking about.
But yeah, yeah, that was going to come to me, too.
Yeah, it will.
It will.
But man, that that scene was just so cool.
27:52
But I really appreciated that we got to see just as as a geek, but also as a black man.
I appreciated getting to see Falcon and just the Wakandans first.
I felt like it was a little like it was a subtle head nod to just like all of black culture like like you know, when when when you need us, like we going to be there and I’m.
28:16
Like a good neighbor, Negroes are there.
Like a good neighbor and Negroes are there.
That’s funny.
I’m sorry, Internet, OK.
But it, but I mean, that’s, that’s such a cool aspect of, of, you know, community within the black community like that I had that, you know, I went to a PWI for the most majority of my life, but especially in high school.
28:40
And I felt like, you know, my, my peers, especially all the 2021 graduates, like, you know, if, if something was going on, like we were going to be there for, for each other, you know, just just because it was few of us in a predominantly white space.
28:55
And I felt like, you know, I saw a bit of that in Avengers end game when I mean, you just see Okoye and Shuri and T’challa walk out and then like the camera pans up and it’s just like the whole like all of Wakanda and all of the food ships and you know, the rhinos and stuff.
29:15
And they’re just all, there’s so many of them, like, like the Wakandan army made-up the bulk of, you know, the, like, army behind The Avengers fighting against, you know, yeah.
You bought the whole country, but you made me think of it or something.
29:31
So, and this might be picking Internet.
I’m sorry, this is picking.
But do you think I think about, you know, with Falcon and then with, you know, Chala, Sherry, Nicoya being the first out of the portal.
Anybody else came?
But they were the first out and we got Captain America on his last leg about to go against, you know, this he I mean, he’s he’s still got the gumption to fight, but he’s on his last leg and then the black folk show up first to save America.
30:00
I’m just picking Internet.
I’m sorry.
But do you think that there is any realistic tie in?
I think about like our when, whenever things get pushed and, and civil rights areas, that when a legislation or whatnot gets put through for black folk.
30:19
And it’s, it’s the old address that a rising tide lifts all boats.
So like when things get put through for black folk, there’s this, there’s this, there’s almost like this thing where we are, whether consciously or unconsciously, doing things to save the soul of a nation.
30:35
Yes.
Yeah.
So, yeah, so.
I don’t know, I don’t know if I would say that’s a stretch.
I feel like maybe that was an unintentional parallel that is very real.
Like, you know, African Americans, like we, we built this this country, right?
30:55
Like literally.
And then I mean, I even think about the civil rights movement and how it inspired and really helped a lot of other movements for minorities, You know, I think about the, the Asian American Pacific Islanders and, and Native Americans and women and, you know, even even queer people, right?
31:18
Like there’s, you know, and and.
The rights that are gained.
The reality is like that, like like that minority, that representation, you know, like comic book writers and and movie directors and stuff, the comic book business, like they’re very intentional about representation.
31:37
And I think that it is a very good parallel.
You know that like a lot of people do benefit from other social movements that that I mean like Black Lives Matter.
And then we have all of these other like, you know, like blank lives matter that burst from the movements, you know, with with good intentions.
31:59
Now you know how like things may have ended or whatever you know is is left to be debated, but.
Right.
I got a few quotes I want to read.
I got we got like a few more questions, but not a time, but I got a few quotes just in regards to Stan Lee, some stuff from Stan Lee, some people talking about Stan Lee.
32:17
We know he is the the man.
See the code here.
He says.
I’ve always included minority characters in my stories, often as heroes.
We live in a diverse society, in fact a diverse world, and we must learn to live in peace and with respect for each other.
When you hear that just in terms of what we’ve been talking about, what does that speak to you?
32:37
We know that, like, what is it he speaks, what his intent was and kind of how you tell these stories.
But does it make you feel like an appreciation for him that he went into his writing and his hero creation with Hey, I, this is what I want to communicate.
32:55
It wasn’t a thing where he was trying to like, it wasn’t where I made the story and I’m retconning it to be something else.
It was something where I’m going into it with this intent.
So like what?
What does that speak to you when you hear that?
Man, I rest in peace, Stanley.
33:11
Yes, Sir.
But I, I, I absolutely appreciate that that was his intention.
You know, Stanley was an older guy, so I’m assuming he said that around maybe like the 50s, sixties, you know, or maybe in an interview later.
33:26
But that like when he started, you know, like creating comic books and these characters and stuff.
Like the fact that that’s his intention.
I feel like we should also be just as intentional to include those characters and maybe not, you know, I feel like there’s a fine balance between companies trying to reach, you know, for for a profit and, you know, maybe like trying to raise swap or gender swap, like no.
33:54
He created you going to the next question, but that’s the last question I want to ask.
My mind is just is just going no.
No.
Do you think?
Do you think it’s good?
I’m not mad.
But it but it like like a lot of a lot of companies will will do that.
34:11
And then it’s like, no, like we have these characters that that, you know, were created, you know, and he created this like super cool and diverse universe and then other people came along and added questions.
There we go, another You might as well just hold up all of them.
Hey, Miles Morales.
34:31
Alright, go ahead.
Go ahead.
Go.
Ahead, but he, you know, created all these characters and then these other artists come along and create even more characters that are like well known within this universe.
It’s like let’s go explore, you know, their stories and uphold his intention that you know, he like started this whole thing for you know, like I’m not saying there shouldn’t be like white heroes at all, but like there’s so much about Wakanda and their I mean, you know, even more like stories aside from just to you know, you got to you’ve got you know, in comics, Storm from the X-Men and T’challa, I forget his name.
35:14
It begins with the Z, but you know there there’s there’s his story and then in the MC other there’s another, you know, T’challa, you know, at the at the end of what kind of forever spoiler if you haven’t seen that, but if you haven’t seen that, be ashamed of yourself, but.
35:31
You deserve to be spoiled.
There’s just like so many other stories, you know, aside from just Black Panther and and Captain, not Captain Boy, Captain America, Sam Wilson, you know, and and and Miles Morales and other other heroes, you know, aside from just black.
35:50
People no for sure that that.
Lord so.
Yeah, you mentioned Kamala Khan.
I mean, you got Wong and Doctor Strange.
Yes, I.
Mean he’s the new source of Supreme.
I mean, as of the the last, the last movie, he’s the new source of Supreme, Yeah.
And so you got.
36:08
It.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You got Shang Chi, You got so many different people and that.
And that from yeah, Marbles.
Yeah, Marbles.
And then you got introduced to her in one division.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maria rambles.
So yeah.
36:24
And so I, I think that’s awesome.
But you kind of segue into the last question I wanted to ask.
And I think it’s a, a big question and you, you, you kind of answered it a little bit and it, and it’s, it’s a big frustration that I have with I, I think it’s, it’s lazy on the creator’s side.
36:41
I.
But I it it when I think it was, what was it last year?
I think maybe two years ago, You know, I watch a bunch of comic podcasts, things like that.
And one thing they talked about was like there was these murmurings of the release of a black Superman.
36:58
Oh my gosh, can we please?
And I’m like, why we got can we talk about this?
Yeah, we can talk about this.
My question about race swapping.
Characters, yeah.
It just, it’s it’s so frustrating because, and I’m not saying race swapping is a bad thing, because I thought it was a super cool thing.
37:16
And it was very like in, in cases like The Little Mermaid, I feel like that was reflecting, you know, like the, the seven seas and all of the, I don’t know, all of the, you know, stuff just like the diversity of Ariel’s sister.
37:31
Like stuff like that is OK when there’s a plethora.
Yeah, there’s different, there’s a difference.
But when you have black characters that have been and this is this, you know, you talk about Superman, Warner Bros is a whole another, that’s a whole another thing.
37:46
Like I know more about than I do about Marvel, but I was, I was really upset when they announced that because and it was nothing against, you know, my.
Hope they don’t do it.
Hope they don’t do it.
Yeah, but there are other black superheroes other than Cyborg and and then the DC Universe.
38:07
You got Cyborg?
Watch a Manhunter icon rocket static shot there.
And you know, there are many more.
Yeah, those are just off the top of my head.
38:22
But like, let’s go and explore these characters instead of trying to, it was obviously a, a money grab, like, you know, trying to, they were trying to catch up with Marvel and, you know, and, and instead of embracing the stories and building the, the, you know, universe that already exists, like starting another universe where there’s a, like, there’s, you know, a black Superman.
38:47
I’m not saying that’s because that’s, there is a black Superman in comics.
You know, his, his name is Val Zod.
I’m not sure if he’s I I think he’s kind of in between like a superhero and a a villain, because I’ve seen both versions before where he’s a superhero like century.
39:05
But but at the same time, you know, like we have all of these these characters and, and stories that have yet to be explored.
Like why don’t we go do that instead of trying to like restart something and saying, Hey, look at how diverse we are.
39:22
There there, there are other characters I think they should do.
And this would be a really cool like Wonder Woman story.
There’s a not another Wonder Woman.
I guess her name is Nubia.
And I like read this whole thing about how she was made from like dark clay and Queen Hippolyta, like got rid of her or whatever.
39:43
And and so like Diane has this long lost sister that is black, that has like the same powers as her.
And she’s like queen of this nation that is like low key like a Wakanda in Africa.
And this is all like in the DC universe, like.
39:58
Let’s go explore.
Characters like that, like, you know, is is.
I think you’re 100% right and it’s it’s lazy from a creative standpoint because you do have all these diverse stories of heroes and you keep remaking like we know who Khalil is.
40:17
We don’t need Michael B Jordan to be Khalil.
You.
Know if you’re going to tell that story, use this other hero.
Like I think about even from Marvel and I think Marvel doesn’t do this or at least I don’t know that they do this.
But because of the quote we read earlier, Stan Lee, he’s intentionally is diversifying his characters to be used and appreciable.
40:35
I think about this guy right here.
Blue Marvel.
Yes.
He’s like Superman isn’t Marvel but he had all of the powers of Kalil but his brother.
So I’m thinking about.
And then Wonder Man, they casted.
Yeah.
40:51
What was his name?
Yeah, Martin or something.
Yeah, he played.
He played Black and Aquaman.
They they casted him, you know, as as wonder man and Wonder man is traditionally white.
And I think in cases like, you know, Samuel Jackson, right, where Nick?
41:09
You’ll never see Nick Fury the same again.
You don’t want nobody but Sam Jackson.
People I didn’t even know that he was white up until because it was like animated stuff that came out prior to, you know, the MCU and then he was casted, you know, as like Samuel Jess was casted.
41:27
And so stuff like that, you know, I feel like it’s a little, it’s a little different.
But when your whiteness or your your blackness or the yeah, like you being a male or female or, you know, gay or straight or whatever, like plays a part into that character.
Like Superman Kalil Clark Kent should be white.
41:45
He’s a white boy.
It’s a part of who he is.
Like, it’s a part of who he is.
Like he’d like, yeah, you know, you know what I’m saying?
Like it?
Yeah, no, no, for sure for.
Sure.
It’s like, it’s like you can’t, you know, have Ryan Gosling be Black Panthers, not that they’re talking about that, but you can’t do that.
42:02
So we we are almost at time, but I wanted to yield the floor to you really quickly before we close out.
Did you have any closing comments?
Closing because you, you, you.
You’ve had quite a few gems, quite a few bombs you drop throughout our time together.
You have anything you want to leave the people with around, like the diversity, justice, redemption, reconciliation arcs that we kind of see throughout, whether it’s the specifics of Sam Wilson story or just the MCU in general.
42:30
Man, I, you know, not not a whole lot.
I just, I do think superheroes are a great outlet for kids and young adults and even adults and, and seniors and stuff.
You know, if you know how to, how to balance the two.
42:49
Representation is is super important, but it’s also a good way to just like I’ve seen people talk about superhero, There’s a guy on social media, his Instagram is rich villo dust.
Yeah, he’s a pastor out in The New Yorker Jersey.
43:06
Yeah, Rich Villotis.
Yes, but he, but he talks a lot about superheroes and I like seeing his stuff because no, it there’s a lot of symbolism with some characters.
And then Jesus, you know, and, and obviously Jesus is so much greater.
Superman is literally.
43:23
Like, like it’s, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a good conversation to have.
Then just on the topic of like representation, man, it like speaking from experience, it it’s so good to feel seen and just having like as a kid, like having somebody that looks like you, especially when you’re in a predominantly white space.
43:46
Like it just it, it allowed me to exhale.
And there are a lot of times where like I couldn’t do that.
And even just beyond color, like there are some, you know, there’s a specific DC character who’s a believer in Jesus and he said that I.
44:02
Know that.
Zatara Zatanna is the more popular DC magician who’s a part of Young Justice and the Justice.
But her father Zatara is a believer, you know, in Jesus.
And I’ve seen more of that.
And it’s kind of contradictory because, you know, there’s like magic and yeah.
44:21
And Jesus.
But at the same time, it’s like this isn’t real.
So, you know, but it’s just good to see that.
Like I feel like you see a lot of other representation and it’s, it’s, it’s good to, to see stuff like that because it’s like, you know, it, this is, it’s really a reflection of life and reality.
44:46
And some of the reality that these characters live are like, there are so many people, you know, who, who lose people and can identify with man, that scene in, in the very last Spider man movie when Tom Holland was just broke down and crying because he had lost his parents, his uncle Ben, Aunt May and Tony Stark.
45:08
And it’s like, you know, I, I, I know people who have lost people like like that.
And it’s like when you, when you see stuff like that and we all, we all can attest to it because I don’t know about you, but watching Riley struggle with anxiety in the second inside out movie, like I was tearing up.
45:26
So if you identify with that.
You’re like, that’s it right there.
That’s it.
Yeah.
You know.
What I’m saying like there’s other stuff you can, you can identify with and it’s so good to like see that, you know, representation and it’s like, I can’t fully describe it and I don’t know all the intricacies of what it does to our brain and like the science behind it, but it just allows me to exhale when I when I see stuff like that.
45:48
That’s awesome, So.
Yeah, that’s a great way to go out.
I love that saying that it allows you to exhale.
Yeah.
So so our hope is I think for Be the Bridge and even for Cole and I right now is that we are in spaces or get to spaces or even as you’re watching superhero representation in cinema, that it allows us to opportunity and the place to exhale.
46:12
Yes, when you sit down and watch if you’re if you’re a lady and you watch and see the lady superhero you when you get to see either when you seek and see Black Widow or storm anybody that’s as a woman exhale to see see myself as something that society doesn’t tell me that I am or some black person, anything like that.
46:30
That representation helps you exhale.
Yes, so, but we appreciate you guys jumping in with Cohen as we talked a little bit of a geekdom today and that relates to justice and reconciliation.
We would love to hear back from you guys if you would join us, find us, follow us on bTB Connect.
46:46
That’s bTB Connect.
Find us there.
Jump in, leave comments.
We want to know what your geek stories are and how they relate to justice and reconciliation and redemption and want to hear your Sam Wilson stories, the tension between justice and heroics, all that stuff.
We would love to hear it, but thank you guys so much for joining the bTB Be the Bridge podcast.
47:06
We’ll catch you guys later.
Peace.
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge Podcast.
To find out more about Be the Bridge and what we offer, visit bethebridge.com.
Partner with us in this work at bethebridge.com/give, Connect with us on social media, and remember, you are not alone in your pursuit of righteousness and justice.
47:29
Latasha Morrison is the executive producer, Sarah Connatser is the producer, and transcripts are done by a wonderful team of volunteers.
Thanks for listening.
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