Find this episode and subscribe on:
In this conversation, Latasha Morrison and Rev. Dr. Malcolm Foley dive into the true meaning of the gospel and the impact of economic exploitation on society. They discuss the vision behind Mosaic Waco, the intentionally multicultural church Malcolm co-pastors, and his book The Anti-Greed Gospel: Why the Love of Money is the Root of Racism and How the Church Can Create a New Way Forward.
Malcolm and Latasha explore the deep-rooted issues of greed, violence, and racial injustice in society. They discuss the historical context of lynching and its economic implications. They also address the dangers of Christian nationalism and the seductive nature of power and wealth. The episode ends with an incredible word of hope.
Join in the conversation on our social media pages on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn to let us know your thoughts on this episode!
Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison
Producer – Sarah Connatser
Links:
Become a Donor of Be the Bridge
Purchase The Anti-Greed Gospel
Learn More about Mosaic Waco
Connect with Be the Bridge:
Our Website
Facebook
Instagram
Join the online community BTB Connect
Connect with Malcolm Foley:
Publisher’s Website
Connect with Latasha Morrison:
Facebook
Instagram
Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.
*this was transcribed by Spotify and has not been checked for errors
0:00
So against that exploitation, we’re called to be communities of deep economic solidarity.
Against that violence, we’re called to be communities of creative, anti violent and against the lies, we’re supposed to be communities of prophetic truth telling.
And these are and, and, and none of these are like extra Christian things to do.
0:15
Like they’re basic Christian things, right?
Welcome.
To the Be the Bridge Podcast, Be the Bridge exists to empower people and culture toward racial healing, equity, and reconciliation.
Latasha Morrison founded Be the Bridge in 2016 to foster needed dialogue and brave spaces and to give people the tools to pursue racial justice.
0:38
We provide resources and community to do just that, and this podcast is one of those resources.
You’ll hear interviews hosted by Latasha and our team, conversations about current events, and encouragement for your racial literacy journey.
Thank you for listening, subscribing and engaging in this important work.
0:59
Be the bridge community.
I’m so excited.
I’m always excited for the guests that I bring on here because I just really this podcast is to help equip our community to help shape you in the work of racial literacy and also in your spiritual walk.
1:19
And I’m grateful for the voices that I get a chance to meet.
And some, I know some people I don’t know.
And this person we just met, but I feel like I know him because I know a lot of people who know him.
The Reverend Doctor Malcolm Foley, right.
He has a PhD now.
1:35
Listen.
Yeah.
PhD from Baylor University at Mdiv from Yale University Divinity School.
You just been busy, right?
OK, Yeah.
It’s a school, it’s a lot of school.
He is a pastor, a scholar, and a speaker, concerned first and foremost with encouraging his brothers and sisters in Christ to live in the joy that Christ has prepared for them.
1:58
He also serves as a special advisor to the President for Equity and Campus Engagement at Baylor University.
His writings has been featured in Christianity the Day, Mere Orthodoxy in the Anxious Bench.
He pastors at Mosaic Waco, an intentional multicultural church in Waco, TX.
2:16
Please welcome Doctor Malcolm Foley, I am so glad that you are here.
We met at Exiles in Babylon.
I had heard about you from a friend of both of ours, Mariah Humphreys, who who actually worked at Baylor, love her and love what she’s doing now.
2:37
And so we we met briefly.
We were on a panel together.
Good times, good times.
It’s been good.
And so I have been following you guys.
He told me he had a church Mosaic Waco.
2:53
So for some of you know that, you know, I’ve been on this church search.
Yes, here in Atlanta, it is not as easy as you think.
You know, church staff, several church Staffs for years and years.
It is difficult, but I visited a lot of churches.
3:10
And so I was like, yeah, I’m gonna check out virtually Mosaic Waco.
And I love what I’m seeing there.
They are in this series on Revelation.
And I’m telling you, it is really, it’s really good.
3:26
And also we, I meant I’m taking a New Testament class.
And so we, we, yeah, that’s a part of it too.
So yeah, so I’m taking some notes, but yeah.
And I love the intentionality of diversity that you have there.
3:43
Tell us a little bit about how Mosaic Waco started.
And then we are going to jump into this new book that he just wrote that you guys, I’m telling you, you have to go out and get it.
It is so good.
It’s the anti greed gospel and it’s incredible.
4:01
And I want you to we’re going to dig into that.
But I want to just talk a little bit about your church and why it started, how it’s going.
And, you know, especially in a time where there is a lie about diversity being something negative or bad.
4:18
And I said that’s a lie because any, any Christian should understand that diversity is not divisive, you know, and it should unite us, not divide us.
And and we see that through from Genesis to Revelation.
4:34
And so you know why, why Mosaic Waco and tell us a little bit about the vision and what you guys are doing there.
Sure.
So we so we planted the church six years ago.
So I was I was a member at APCA church where my Co pastor now Co pastor was associate pastor of the church.
4:53
And so he wanted to, he wanted to plant an intentionally multi ethnic church.
And, and so he asked me, he’s like, Malcolm, you wanna, you wanna do this with me?
I’m like, gosh, I love this, love this, love to do that.
But also as we continue to talk about this.
But I was like, but also I don’t really like the language of multi ethnic because it’s very easy to have a multi ethnic community where there’s where, where, where there’s still a singular dominant culture.
5:17
Yeah.
And so, and So what, So what would it look like for us to build a community that, that, that intentionally both recognizes the diversity of, of, of, of cultures within our, within our faith, but also like actively affirms, but also actively affirms them.
5:34
So like where we, where we are constantly, you know, hearing, hearing the scriptures in different languages, singing in different languages, where people are presented with a vision of their leadership.
Because my, because my Co pastor’s white.
Well, you have two very distinct styles, but also you can see equity and power sharing.
5:51
Yeah.
In in your, in your leadership in a way that like there is no senior pastor of this church, like we, we are Co pastors and that, and it’s been that way from the very, from the very beginning of the, from the very beginning of the church.
So yes, so, so, so our, our kind of three main kind of values or that we’re gospel centered, spirit LED and, and intentionally multicultural.
6:13
And, and yeah, we’re Chuck, we’re Chuck, we’re chucking along the church is the church is doing church is doing well.
It’s beautiful.
It’s definitely my heart language and I love the fact that it’s you know, like you said, like there’s this balance when you talk about multi ethnic multicultural churches, a lot of times when you sense the power dynamics, you know, you can see that when you go look at the leadership, you can see that when you experienced it, the service like and so that’s what you find in a lot of places.
6:39
Not really true.
You know, it’s more performative, but not really too multi ethnic multicultural.
So I love that I started Be the Bridge because of my love for the local church.
And so I will always at heart be a local church girl.
So that’s why I wanted people to know that there are pastors out here that have a vision for this.
7:01
Oh yeah.
That are educated towards this and they are still like the body of Christ.
The Kingdom of God is growing and expanding.
And so despite what we feel and since the Kingdom of God is is is growing and expanding.
7:16
And so I am so happy to know you and just proud of all the work that you’re doing and how you handle yourself.
And you guys, you can’t see well, some of you will be able to see him if you go to our YouTube channel.
But some of you Malcolm always has on a suit.
7:35
He always has on a suit.
Like let me tell you, bro was in a three piece suit at the conference, but he is bringing his full self and he don’t care.
He like you could be casual.
You can have a lot your little jeans and your little sneakers and all your little stuff, but I am going to be pristine.
7:54
He preaches in a three piece suit.
Not not but three.
Now today he doesn’t have on his jacket, but he has on his back jacket today and he’s hot and he’s working.
He’s he said it’s hot, right?
It’s hot.
I can imagine in that Texas heat.
8:09
Come on that.
OK, so one thing that came up during the Exiles in Babylon conference we both spoke at recently was how different people define and see the gospel.
Let’s just start there.
What is the gospel and what has the Western church missed in this view of it?
8:29
And this is the thing and the reason why I’m diving there because we got a lot going on in our country right now.
There is a lot and and, and then some of this is like, you know, I always tell people when we talk about racism and the period of enslavement of African Americans and, and the genocide of our indigenous brothers and sisters, it wasn’t like the church was on the sidelines saying stop.
8:53
These are image bearers, you know, like it wasn’t like, you know, it’s like the church was a part of the problem.
And so when we start talking about the gospel, when I’m reading the gospel, I’m like, what, what Bible are people reading when we’re getting these type of outcomes?
9:10
And so I was just, you know, I and I think, you know, I’ve been telling everyone, OK, just just lean into the gospels, lean into Isaiah, lean into the prophets, you know, because if you understand the gospels, you will basically be able to recognize the imposters, you know, and, and, and false prophets.
9:34
And I see a lot of us that I wouldn’t even think getting the Okie Doke pulled on them.
So, you know, what has the Western church missed in its view of it?
And, and, and what is it?
Because it evidently we don’t really know what it is.
Know the good news?
9:52
We don’t know it.
So so here is and I believe this is from see Renee Padilla.
It’s one of my one of my favorite kind of paragraph along descriptions of the Gospel and he says the gospel about.
The book right, you just thought you.
No, I just look, no, this is, this is, this is, this is just the gospel.
10:11
This is the gospel.
So the, the gospel, the gospel is the good news of the victory of Jesus Christ over the powers of darkness.
The Savior who’s whose death was an atonement for sin is also the Lord who disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing them, triumphing over them in the cross.
10:27
Colossians 215.
This salvation deals not only with humanity’s reconciliation to God, but also with a complete restructuring of life according to the model for the new humanity provided by God in Jesus Christ.
In other words, the gospel offers not only a religious experience, but also a new creation, a new lifestyle under the rule of God.
10:46
Yeah.
Like that’s, I think when I, when I came across that summary a few years ago, I was like, yeah, that basically, that basically covers it.
Yeah, whose summary was that again?
It’s it’s C See Renee Padilla.
He’s a Latin American evangelical.
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, it’s, but I think I think one of the, so one of the failures, I think of a lot of Western Christianity is, is that the focus on Christ’s work is almost exclusively just dealing with the removal of guilt and, and Christ’s victory over the powers and principalities is not actively worked into the lives of is not actively worked into the lives of people.
11:28
So when I think about like the good news of what Christ has done, and this goes into the book, that part that that a significant part of it is Christ’s victory over sin, death, the devil and, and mammon, which is the other, the other enemy that we, that we tend not to spend too much time thinking about.
11:44
But one of the purposes of the book is just to talk about that one.
But but Christ’s victory over the powers of principalities and the fact that in our faith in him and in our union with him, we actually get to participate with him in that victory on a daily basis.
Like that’s a really important element of what it means to live a life that’s guided by the gospel.
12:04
Yeah, since you brought up Mammon, and I know this is center point of your book.
You know, one of the things that I have often said was, you know, when we think about, you know, racism in this country, when we think about white supremacy that fueled racism.
12:24
You know, the the cornerstone of that a lot of times people would think was hate, but it’s not hate.
I would say that it’s indifference that also fueled hate.
Then you go deeper, which we know that especially if you’ve ever visited the the African American Smithsonian Museum in Washington, DC, you see how the Portuguese, you know, when when the slave trade started over spices like, you know, Yeah.
12:54
And what was at the root of that?
And so you talk about thinking in our habits, how to change.
You say we will not defeat mammon by merely thinking and believing differently within Christian communities.
Mammon is defeated, hated and reviled when solidarity is practiced and the poor are materially cared for.
13:13
Jesus is, of course, right.
We cannot serve both God and Mammon.
Now let’s let’s talk about what Mammon is in the full central point point of your book that goes deeper than indifference, but and why greed is so central to that.
13:33
Let’s go for it, all right?
Great.
So the central argument of the book is that America’s history of race and racism is a proxy battle of the cosmic war, and the combatants of that cosmic war were named by Jesus.
In Matthew 624, he says you cannot serve 2 masters.
13:50
You will either love one and hate the other or be devoted to 1 and despise the other.
You can’t serve both God and mammon.
And where, where, where, where?
Mammon is just the Aramaic word for money or riches.
And it’s just, it’s really interesting to me that given the option of idols that that Christ could have chosen as to like, what’s this other master that we’re all tempted to follow and obey?
14:13
You know, I spend a lot of time in, in reformed, in reformed circles and people love to talk about pride.
I mean, a lot of people because of Augustine, like to talk about pride as the root of, as the root of all of these, all of the all people.
But it sounds like to me that Jesus is saying that our primary, that one of our primary enemies is actually money and riches, which is to say like greed.
14:35
Even when I think about the very, the very first sin we could, we couldn’t narrate that as a sin of pride, but I narrate it as a sin of greed.
It’s the fact that like God has already given Adam and Eve everything that they could possibly want.
And he’s like, don’t take, but don’t take from this tree.
14:50
And they’re like, but, but it’s nice.
How about how about I reach out and grab it for myself?
That is, that is literally what the impulse of greed is.
It’s when your desire outstrips, It’s when your desire outstrips need and when you and when you reach out to grab something that’s something that’s not yours, something that’s not yours to grab.
15:10
And so one of the, one of the things that I want to remind people in the book is that historically, when, when we, when we look at history of, of race, we’re looking at something that a category that begins because people have to find ways to justify amassing wealth.
15:28
For the Portuguese, it’s that they don’t, they don’t get involved in chattel slavery because they’re racist.
They get involved because they have markets they want to expand and it’s a really cheap source of Labor.
So then as they have to justify that to themselves and to the Pope, that’s when these languages, that’s when the language of whiteness and blackness enters into the lexicon.
15:46
That’s when kind of these narratives about these people’s heatheness and and uncivilized Ness, right?
They’re like, oh, well, it’s clear in their in their blackness.
But that’s where these, but that’s essentially where these where these categories come from, that it comes from that it comes from greed, the hate and ignorance come down the line.
16:04
OK, Yeah, Yeah, that.
I mean, when you think about that, one of the things you talk about, you know, how how some of the and in the first part, you said our history, our greed, race and racial capitalism, how greed gave birth to race.
16:22
And then you talk about lessons of despair, lessons of resistance.
And we’re going to talk about that.
But when you when you talk about that racial capitalism, how do you see that even playing out today right now?
Because when I’m looking at everything now, like even when we look back at historical context and then looking present like it’s green, it’s like someone, I saw this demonstration, I think it was online, someone said, you know, this equates when you think about the top 1% or something, they said these grains of salt represent like basically all the wealth that some people have.
17:00
And so it is like, I mean, mountains of rice, basically just one grain of salt.
And then this small handful of salt, like just a few kernels represents majority of everyone else.
And he said now think about this, the person with the mountain of rice and you have someone that only have 5 pieces of rice and you’re creating systems where the person with the mountain of rice is taken from the person with the five pieces of rice and you going to tell me God is in there?
17:35
Like that is the anti gospel like that is Antichrist like.
And so talk a little bit about that, what you’re seeing, what we’ve seen in the past, but also what we see now and yeah, what we see, what we’ve seen in the past and what we’ve seen now and then.
17:54
I have, yeah.
Something else I might ask?
One of these things is that questions about race and really a lot of the evil, much of the evil that we face when we ask enough questions, we end up getting back to economic exploitation.
One of the, one of the big things I want to lay out in the book is what I call the the demonic cycle of self-interest.
18:14
So it begins with our denied our, our desire to both dominate and exploit each other.
We want money and we want power.
But in order for us to amass money and power for ourselves, we generally have to put people in positions that they don’t like to be in because that means people need to be dominated and stuff needs to be taken from them.
18:30
And so because people don’t like being in those positions, we end up employing violence in order to keep them in those positions.
But because most of us have consciences, we, we, we, we don’t think, well, I’m excited to wake up in the morning and exploit, dominate and kill my neighbors.
18:45
So we create narratives that allow us to tell ourselves that that’s not what we’re doing to each other.
This cycle of exploitation, violence and lies.
Exploitation, violence and lies.
It lies up.
It, it lay up the root of racialized child slavery.
It was at the root of lynching, which I deal with a lot in the book.
19:00
But also it’s just like, it’s fundamentally the way that, the way that evil, the way that evil works.
So even when we look at broad systemic evil today, when we ask those questions of well, like where’s the money, we end up seeing, oh, wait, this desire for money fuels a lot of this violence.
19:18
Whether it’s whether it’s people having, whether it’s whether it’s people losing their jobs, where there’s people losing their homes, where there’s people not not having access to food.
All of those things, all those things are deeply violent realities.
But they’re deeply violent realities that come from the fact that there are some people who make more money from you not having a house were you not having a job in in in most of these cases, it it it, it, it comes down to an issue of economic exploitation.
19:47
But in order for that system to keep going, there also need to be lies that are consistently pressed so that nobody sees that that’s what’s going on.
There’s got to be propaganda that surrounds that surrounds this whole project to keep people from actually recognizing the ways in which they’re being exploited.
20:04
Yeah, I think one of the things you do talk about lessons of resistance from Ida B Wells and, you know, as we know her as a, as a justice seeker who was actually exposing the lies behind lynching that was happening.
20:20
I mean, she was a brave soul, you know, during her her life.
And one of the things when you look at lynching, you know, especially that took place during the after Reconstruction, you know, when the North pulled out of the South, the federal government after the Haysby Compromise, you know, you see lynching.
20:41
But you saw, I think there was this surprise of just this intelligence, just resilience, this agency that enslaved people came out of slavery with.
And, you know, they were, you know, buying land, getting in position in government.
20:59
They were progressing.
And there was a lot of jealousy.
And they were not given anything.
The only people that were given reparations were the enslavers, the people who enslaved, who did the harm, receive reparations.
This is why this country knows about reparations, but we’ve only given it to white people and people who Japanese internment camp.
21:22
Now talk a little bit about these lessons of resistance and how you center the work of Ida B Wells.
Because what I noticed is a lot of people who gained land, who, you know, built stores, owned property, all of those things.
21:38
Many of those people were lynched and their property was taken like it was really, it was jealousy.
I mean, when we think and.
And a lot of these stories are untold.
Yeah, the wealth that could have been amassed in our community had those people had some justice and been allowed to live like it’s some ugly history.
22:00
It doesn’t.
It is feel good, but talk a little bit about that.
One of the things I want to, one of the things I want to layout about the lynching era is that when when a lot of people think about that era, they just think it’s OK.
We you’ve got these mobs of angry white people killing, killing black folks.
22:19
It’s true, but not the entire, but not the entire story, right?
One of the one of the arguments I want to make is that, hey, lynching begins because of greed.
It continues because of greed and it ends because of greed.
So it be it be it begins because what lynching fundamentally is, and this is something that ought to be Wells presses throughout throughout her entire editorial campaign, is that it’s a tool of social control.
22:41
It’s a violent tool to keep the Negro in his place where his place is exploitable.
Thing is one of the things about the kind of resentment that builds throughout the Reconstruction Era because they’re like, we spent 200 years treating these folks like exploitable things.
What, what, where, where, where do they get in their mind that they can be in the government now or that they can, or that they can amass wealth for themselves.
23:03
All that, all that resentment kind of kind of builds and then explodes into, into violence after the, after the Reconstruction Era lynching begins because of greed.
That is people want to maintain a particular economic and political position.
It could, it continues for that same reason, the narratives of, for example, the black beast rapist and all these, all these, all these justifying narratives that allow this practice to continue it.
23:30
They people want to press those narratives because they don’t want to.
They don’t want to give up resources.
But it also fades as a practice, also because of greed.
So it doesn’t it doesn’t, it doesn’t fade because there’s this moral revolution and people are like, oh, no, we probably shouldn’t burn people alive in front of thousands of people.
23:48
No, it stops because it stops because it becomes it becomes a national embarrassment.
We get, we get we get editorials coming out of coming from like France and Japan saying, what are these southern?
What are these Southern Americans doing at a time when the South is seeking to industrialize and the Northfound finds out about these things?
24:08
They’re losing capital investment.
Not only not only that, but you have the great migrations you have you’re more than 6,000,000 Afro Americans who are moving from the South to the North.
So this, so this labor base is actually physically moving.
All of those, all of those factors create basically basically make lynching bad for business.
24:27
And, and so that particular practice begins to fade.
But they start finding other, they start, they start looking for other methods to suppress black communities.
So you so you can lean you can learn more into Jim Crow legislation.
You can learn more into into into those into those kinds of things.
24:43
But at root, the issue still is not dealt with.
And so and so the so the so the demon Mammon is still is still allowed to is to is still allowed to continue to operate, still allowed to continue to exploit, still allowed to continue to dominate.
24:59
And, and would you say that some of the seeds of that right now is still present as we look at some of the anti inclusion, anti equity, anti diversity?
Because we know statistics and data show us that.
25:15
And target is telling us that inclusion and diversity improve the bottom line financially.
And so it’s just a matter of time where people realize that this is bad for business.
Like, you know, white men alone cannot carry the GDP of America, right?
25:38
Reality, like if you like, that’s some really private thinking.
Yeah, you know, you’ll see that.
But sometimes people don’t realize what you would say, like how unity, how sharing of resources, how bridge building, how diverse, like how it makes this country better than it was, you know, but and there’s like when you say this experiment of America is very different from Japan or from China or from Russia or, you know, then a then a then a lot of things.
26:17
And so, you know, but I think grievous is a messy thing.
And what I mean, what would you say to that?
When you look at the past and you look at now and you talk about like, where do we go from here?
Solidarity or greed, love or violence, truth or lies?
26:35
And I would say, you know, right now we’re living it in a, you see, what’s driving a lot of things is greed.
We’re seeing violence, not love.
You know, I think, I think it’s very violent to send people a way to citizens or people who are here legally away and refuse to bring them back when there was a mistake made.
27:00
That’s violent lies where, you know, lies that people refuse to acknowledge.
We’re not seeing truth.
We’re seeing an erasure.
We are living in a season of and we maybe it’s always been the underbelly, but now it’s out front more so there’s more reality of of greed, violence in lies.
27:22
What would you say to?
That so This is why I use the language.
This is also why I use the language of racialized capitalism because it it is in in using that language.
What I’m saying is that the political economy that we live in, that is the way that money and power are used in the world that we actually live in.
27:40
That what it that generally what it requires is that we have these categories of people that we can like, not care about because they’re exploitable and we can do whatever we want with them.
We this is this is this is especially clear today in the narratives that surround our immigrant neighbor neighbors, brothers and sisters.
27:58
There is this category of people that we don’t have to, that we have.
We’ve we’ve created this category of people that we don’t have to think about, don’t need due process.
All like, like, like all those, all those kinds of things that lies at the root of the way that this of the way that this political economy functions broadly.
28:17
And I talk about that a little bit in the book, but the solutions, but the solutions that Ioffer are are are, I think important.
So I narrated that that demonic cycle of self-interest before of exploitation, violence and lies.
If that’s the evil that we’re dealing with, then Christian communities are called to be formed in such a way that resists each of those three, each of those three things.
28:37
So against that exploitation, we’re called to be communities of deep economic solidarity.
Against that violence were called to be communities of creative, anti violent and against the lies were supposed to be communities of prophetic truth telling.
And these are and, and, and none of these are like extra Christian things to do.
28:53
Like they’re basic Christian things to do.
So, So the economic solidarity point, I think, I think about Acts 2 and Acts 4, that would that, that, that one of the primary witnesses of the people of God is supposed to be their economic witness that, that there are people who share, that there are people who, when there are needy people in their midst, their first impulse is what do I have to do to meet these, to meet these needs?
29:14
That is a fundamental Christian commitment that flows out of who we believe that Christ is and what we believe that Christ did and what we believe that Christ did for us.
To the violence point, the the creative anti violence really just at its root is this is what it means to love your neighbor as yourself, to love not only your neighbor, not only your brother and sister, but also your enemy.
29:34
The way that the scriptures frame love is as a is as a material commitment.
I think back to first John 3, 16 and 17, where where we’re told this is how we know what love is that Jesus Christ laid down his life for us.
Therefore we ought to lay down our lives for one another.
And then immediately after that John says, so if if any one of you has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need and has no pity on them.
29:56
How can you say that the love of God is in you?
So love is a material commitment to your brother or sister, but it even extends to A to a material commitment to your enemy.
We’re told at the end of Romans 12, Paul says in, in quoting, quoting proverbs, it says if your enemy is hungry, you give them something to eat.
30:13
If your enemy is thirsty, you give them something to drink.
All of this undermines any justification that I could create for killing anybody.
Anybody.
And So what?
So what?
So what does it look like to then build a community that not only refuses to engage in violence, but actually commits to actively undermine all of the violence that we witness?
30:35
And so that includes unjust housing practices, it includes unjust undust employment practices.
It includes, it includes feeding people who are hungry, like all these, all these basic needs that people have.
But then lastly, the truth telling point, you know, we’re, we’re, we are, we are in, we are in a world that constantly wants to feed us with lies, not only about ourselves, but also about our neighbors and about the world.
31:01
And as Christians, we ought to be people who are fundamentally committed to the truth, regardless of what the consequences of telling that truth are, because we serve a God who has promised to.
I mean, we serve a God who has to care for us.
Our responsibility is to bear witness to that Kingdom.
Yeah, I, I was just thinking, you know, this past Resurrection Sunday, you know, they were, you know, you saw different services happening.
31:25
And I saw there was there was a picture of some government officials like worshiping and singing.
And it, it was like, it was detestable to me.
And I’m just honest because I’m thinking about the famine, the war that are like happening, you know, abroad in other countries that depend on like US aid, you know, the the farmers and all the different people that produce crops that are used to help sustain life in these countries and how people are dying, image fairs are dying.
32:08
Those who have been created in the image of God, human beings are dying.
And you just worship and like, like without a care in the world because it’s one decision to turn that around and, and give to people what’s necessary.
32:25
And I was, you know, and, and my prayer, like sometimes like, you know, it’s just like, Lord, don’t let us rest, you know, like, you know, we, we, we can’t make that decision to, to shift, you know, to shift those decisions.
32:40
But I it just takes me back to I’m the prophets and you know what they were crying out and saying like, you know, your rituals and your singing and worshiping and burning incense and, you know, sacrificing, it’s meaningless.
You know these people.
32:57
Honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Yes, yeah.
And so when you start, when you think about all this just happening now.
Yeah.
You know, and I, I do know, like, I do feel like that it is a, there are some things at play that some sinister things at play and why people would allow that to happen.
33:22
It’s it’s which is beyond power and control.
What do you say to that?
And you know, and I know like you, you talked about and one of your messages, you know, we know some of these this, these ideologies that are fueling some of the that what we’re experiencing and the underbelly of what we’re experiencing that I don’t know if all Christians really recognize what’s happening.
33:50
So you have, you know, you have this whole Christian white nationalism, which is very Antichrist.
You know, it doesn’t center Christ, it doesn’t put God on the throne.
But then you also have these belief systems that are ingrained in that when you start talking about the NARS, the new, the new Apostolic Reformation you addressed.
34:15
The.
Seven mountains, the Dominion, the whole dominion, yeah viewpoint and how some people view dominion yeah and how they basically, I guess you would say how they interpret that word yeah fully and how bad interpretation leads to some chaos and and.
34:39
Yes.
Some really false prophets and like just Antichrist stuff.
Talk a little bit about that because you shared sure that and what it is, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So, so this is a sermon that I gave a few weeks ago.
If you want to look it up on YouTube.
34:55
It’s titled A Tale of Two Women because it is, it is contrasting the the great prostitute Babylon in in Revelation 17 to 19.
It’s a comparison between Babylon and the bride and the bride of Christ.
But yeah, but one of the things that is it continues to be really frustrating to me is the seven mountains mandate, which which essentially boils down to, you know, there are, there are 7 spheres of influence in the world.
35:21
And the assumption, and this is, I mean, millions of Christians are in, are in this camp where the, where the assumption is, OK, there are these 7 spheres of influence.
Christians are supposed to be at the head, at the head of each of those spheres of influence, whether it’s family, Business, Media, government, religion, all those things.
35:40
Christians are supposed to be in charge of those things.
And it’s just, it’s really interesting to me that the seven mountains civic language, it’s it’s pulled out of.
So Babylon, the woman Babylon sits on the sits on the beast.
35:55
The beast has seven heads.
And we’re told in that text that the seven heads are the are, are seven hills or seven or seven mountains.
It’s specifically a reference to like the seven hills of Rome that Rome is, that Rome is built on.
But like, but my thing is like when I, when I read that, when I read that text, like that’s not something, that’s not something I want to be in charge.
36:17
Like that’s not something I want to be in charge of.
Like that’s something that I want to run away from.
Yeah.
You’re supposed to be in charge of all that.
But but, but, but but it but it but it but it but it points to, but it points to one of the most insidious temptation that I think that I think that I think Christians, that I think Christians regularly face, which is that power is meant for the purpose of domination and that the best place for me to be is at the top.
36:47
And, and, and it is, and it is in many ways, I think fundamentally UN UN Christ like.
But the narrative is, well, Jesus is in charge, so we should be in charge too.
As opposed to it’s like, no, no, no, you live in the way that Christ lived his lived his life.
37:04
That is the Son of man came not to came not to be served, but to serve when you when you die and are redeemed then at that at that point.
And This is why Revelation 321 is now like my favorite verse of the scripture because because because what Jesus says is to the one who overcomes, I will give to them the right to sit with me on my throne just as I overcame and sat with my father on his throne.
37:27
A lot of people want to act like we already overcame.
Let’s let’s be on the throne.
Let’s be on the throne right now because that’s where I deserve to be.
I ho ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho have you shared with Christ in his sufferings, which is what your entire life is supposed to be.
Don’t, don’t start, don’t start jumping to think that you should be in charge of stuff now.
37:46
Because the fact of the matter is, this is Richard, Richard Pryor did this interview.
Where, Where?
Where?
Where?
Revelation to Richard Pryor.
I know, right?
Yeah, this is but the where he basically, I mean, he also said that essentially greed and capitalism lie at the at the root of racism.
38:08
But then the guy who’s interviewing asked him, he’s like, so how long, you know, but what, you know, how long is it going to take for folks like us who see the issues, right, for us to get it, for us to get in charge and be able to change some of this stuff?
And he’s like, that’s not going to work.
38:24
Because the fact of the matter is that the only way for you to get into those positions of power is often for you to look like that, right?
It’s it’s like it’s going to reshape, like you think you’re going to get in that position of power and like change the system.
But you’re going to be actually deeply invested in keeping the system the way that it is because it continues to benefit you.
38:43
And that, like, that’s something that people, people don’t think about, that people just think, well, if I were in charge, things would be different.
No, if you were in charge, you would want to stay in charge.
And if you ever tried to actually actively undermine that system, you would be kicked out of that position.
39:00
It’s one of the, it’s one of the reasons why I think it would be very, very difficult for somebody, somebody devoted to the Kingdom of God to be president of the United States because your job requires you to maintain a violent empire.
And if you were to undermine that work, you’d be out of your job.
39:20
That’s my spicy.
That’s my little spicy little spicy thing for today.
Why do you think so many people are blind to this?
Well, I know there’s, like, we definitely have a biblical, biblical literacy issue.
Like, you know, and I think you guys need to listen to the series on Revelation because, like, people try to write all these things, like, I’m like, OK, the Bible is for us, but not to us.
39:44
And so John’s Revelation.
Yeah, like the people who heard that during that time knew what it was about.
It’s not about Apache helicopters.
All the things that we, you know, are reading into it.
40:03
You know 666 is not the devil like you know.
But, you know, but, I mean, I’m telling you, it’s like some of that spookiness and how people have just said, you know, really false prophets that Paul warns us about, that Jesus warns us about, that we are seeing take the word of God out of context.
40:23
And they have millions of followers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Millions of followers, Yeah.
And they are in high places in government, Yeah.
All all this really indicates, I think I mean, one of the things that this indicates to me is just that power and wealth are very, very, very attractive.
40:42
And I said, I feel I said this at the I said this when we did the holy post thing.
But one of the one of the most powerful ways that that our enemies, the powers and principalities use to dilute our witness is by giving us power, money and cultural influence.
41:00
Because it is.
It is very easy for us to just get comfortable.
Right.
In those in those positions and then do everything that we can to keep, to keep those things, whether whether that means we trample our neighbors or not.
And so, and so, yeah, I, I, whenever, for me, when I think about, anytime I’m given power or resources or anything beyond what I need, my fundamental purpose, if the Lord sees fit to give me those things, my fundamental purpose is to share those with those who don’t, with those who don’t have it, because it’s not, and this is, this is the way I want to refrain.
41:38
The way that we think about money in the book, it’s like, it’s not, it’s not your like, it’s not just yours.
Just do with it whatever you, whatever you please.
It’s a, it’s a trust.
It’s that, it’s that it’s, and, and in so far as the Lord sees fit to give you more than you need, that’s meant to meet the needs, that’s meant to meet the needs of others.
41:57
And that’s a fundamental reshaping of the way that we think about resources.
Be the bridge, the book is called the anti green Gospel, Why the love of money is the root of racism and how the church can create a new way forward.
42:13
And I what I love about doctor Malcolm’s book is kind of like how I like to write with giving people a way forward.
Like you’re, you’re calling out the problem, you’re naming it, but you’re giving people a way forward and which also in turns gives them hope.
42:31
Like this is how we can overcome this.
These are some things that we can do and your model modeling that in your book, but also the witness in your church too, you know, So you’re taking it even further with that.
Try to try to.
42:47
Yeah, as we close, what is giving you hope right now?
Yeah, I mean, one of the things is one of the things is the is the church.
But I even say this at the end of the book that I, I wanted to be careful actually not to give a bunch of like examples of communities, because it’s very easy to find your hope in a particular community.
43:10
And then when that community fails, your hope also fails with.
It.
And so like, that’s risky.
And so, so the, so the way I want to narrate hope is, look, this is the way that Christ has called us to live.
And if he’s called us to live in this way, then he’s also given us the resources to be able to live this way.
43:26
So one of the one of the reasons why we don’t see it is because we don’t want to do what Jesus told us to do.
We don’t believe him when he says stuff.
Right, right.
I.
Want us to be, I want us to fundamentally be a people who like believe Jesus when he says stuff and then seek to do the things that he’s called us to do by the power that he has actually given us.
43:47
And so my hope is in that my hope is in the fact Jesus Christ late got up, got up from the dead.
And because that’s true, that’s the only reason that all this stuff matters.
And that’s also the only reason why I can maintain joy and peace in the midst of, in the midst of persecution, suffering, uncertainty, and fear and all all those things.
44:08
It’s because I have to.
I have to constantly be reminded that the fact that Jesus Christ got it from the dead matters every morning I wake up.
I don’t think there’s anything to say.
It’s it’s simple, it’s truth, and it’s powerful.
44:28
That’s all I got.
That’s it.
The simplicity of the gospel, right?
Well, thank you so much for joining us on the Be the Bridge podcast.
How can people connect with you?
You know, we’re going to put this in the show notes, but you can let people know how they can connect with you online or how.
44:52
Yeah, so, so definitely pick up the book.
I’m still on.
I’m still on Twitter now.
I don’t know how long that’ll last.
Still there.
I know.
I know, I know.
I just it’s I I guess it’s all just book.
It’s all just book promotion at this point.
45:10
But but threads, Rev Doc Malc Twitter.
What So Twitter is Malcolm B Foley.
Blue Sky is also Malcolm.
B Foley.
Yeah.
And then, you know, I still, I guess I’m on those things.
But yeah, those are, those are, those are the places.
45:26
Those are the those are the places right now.
OK, and the the the book is again say the anti greed gospel.
So thank you so much for joining us.
It’s good to hear all of the great things that’s happening in Waco or as my GPS sometimes says, wacko.
45:49
When I used to live in Austin and I was driving to Dallas, yes, we’ll say wacko.
Texas.
I’m like, what?
The home of of Baylor University, but also, what’s that?
46:05
Magnolia?
The gangs.
The gangs, Yeah.
So I’m so I’m so glad for your voice and so grateful for you writing this book to help equip the body to do, to do better, to be better.
46:25
Thank you.
Thank you, Latasha.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge podcast.
To find out more about Be the Bridge and what we offer, visit bethebridge.com, [email protected]/give Connect with us on social media and remember you are not alone in your pursuit of righteousness and justice.
46:48
Latasha Morrison is the executive producer, Sarah Connatser is the producer and transcripts are done by a wonderful team of volunteers.
Thanks for listening.
Leave A Comment