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Latasha Morrison hosts this episode of the Be the Bridge Podcast with a dynamic interview with Kristin Du Mez, a historian and the author of Jesus and John Wayne. They discuss this cultural moment and Du Mez’s work on understanding white evangelical culture. They talk about the themes of authority, masculinity, and the implications of Christian nationalism, as well as the surprising revelations that emerged during Du Mez’s research.
In this conversation, Latasha Morrison and Kristin Du Mez explore the complex relationship between the Bible and the Constitution, emphasizing the need for truth-telling and courage in advocacy. They discuss the current issues of hate and disdain against marginalized communities, the importance of scholarship and historical context in understanding these issues, and the necessity of unity and courage in the face of oppression. The conversation concludes with a look at upcoming works and the call for courageous voices in the fight for justice.
Join in the conversation on our social media pages on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn to let us know your thoughts on this episode!
Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison
Producer – Sarah Connatser
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Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.
*this was transcribed by Spotify and has not been checked for errors
0:00
As a historian, let me say that like there is a reason that historians have largely been at the forefront of kind of resistance to the proto authoritarian, authoritarian movement that’s taking hold.
And we have been for a decade now.
0:16
But when you have this historical knowledge, you can see patterns and there is an authoritarian playbook.
And those of us who know that historically, who have studied 20th century European history, have studied kind of the rise of global authoritarianism, who know what factors need to get checked off for this authoritarian takeover to happen and know what can like push it back.
0:41
Like we’ve had our checklist and we’re checking them off and we’re trying to alert people to to what’s happening because we have seen this before, right?
This is nothing new.
This is just So what was shocking, honestly to me is just how much of A like by the book movement this is.
1:00
There’s no, there’s nothing creative.
Welcome to the Be the Bridge podcast.
Be the Bridge exists to empower people and culture toward racial healing, equity, and reconciliation.
1:16
Latasha Morrison founded Be the Bridge in 2016 to foster needed dialogue and brave spaces and to give people the tools to pursue racial justice.
We provide resources and community to do just that, and this podcast is one of those resources.
1:32
You’ll hear interviews hosted by Latasha and our team, conversations about current events, and encouragement for your racial literacy journey.
Thank you for listening, subscribing and engaging in this important work.
Well, be the bridge community.
1:49
I am elated to have a surprise guest.
Look, everything, every guest is a surprise when I announce it, so you know how I am with that.
But we have Christian Dube, and she is a New York Times bestselling author and a professor of history at Calvin University.
2:09
She holds a PhD from the University of Notre Dame, and her research focuses on the intersection of gender, religion and politics.
She has written for The New York Times, The Washington Post, NBC News, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today, and has been interviewed on NPRCBS and the BBC, among other outlets.
2:31
Her most recent book is Jesus and John Wayne, How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation.
I am so excited to talk to you.
I’m thrilled to be on here.
Thank you.
And those of you who are listening, I know some of my audience right now.
2:48
It’s like for such a time as this, you know, did you know when you were writing this book?
Just like I didn’t know that you were writing this book for such a time as this.
How are you doing?
Oh my goodness.
You know, I will say when I was writing the book, OK, I felt like it was so important because as I was writing it and, and the news was happening again, this is 20/17/2018 as I’m writing it.
3:14
And I’m just everything that was going on that was like terrible.
I just thought, wait, I can explain this.
I can explain this like I’m, I’ve got it right here, right.
And then, and then there was a sense of hopefulness that if, if I can explain this, then maybe, maybe we can change.
And then I realized even during the writing process, oh, this is just all so deeply embedded.
3:33
I don’t think this is going to change at all.
So that’s that was kind of my emotional arc in writing the book.
Yeah, there’s so many layers that I think my book came out at the end of 2019 and your book came out in 2020 in the midst of like the what I like to call the racial unreckoning.
3:50
Yeah, you know, right in the middle, right in the middle.
And So what was that like when you’re because it’s called Jesus and John Wayne.
So, you know, like the John Wayne catches people like at first when I read the title, I was like, what?
Wait a minute, what’s I was like, what’s this like John Wayne?
4:08
That’s what the.
Subtitle’s for right yes back and forth the subtitle and I you know, there were many options that were floated and I was and I, I went with this one, which is pretty harsh right it’s it’s kind of in your face, but I thought, you know, I there could be no bait and switch here.
4:23
I don’t want people to pick it up off the shelf like Jesus and John Wayne, my kind of book and then be, you know, like, no, no, no, you need to know what you’re bought.
You’re.
Right.
Yeah, but it did.
It released right in the summer of 2020.
What a wild time.
I mean, so we’re in COVID lockdown and then we had this very brief opening, if you remember that summer where bookstores opened for like 3 weeks or so, which just happened to be right when this book released.
4:47
So that was helpful.
And it was in the middle, just weeks after George Floyd and that the Black Lives Matter protest.
And so there was a lot going on.
And you know how it is when you release a book, you’re not, you finish a book like a year before and then you’re hoping it kind of finds its face phase.
5:09
You know, I initially thought it’s going to get lost because right now everybody’s talking about about your book and Jabartiski’s book.
And rightly so, right?
These are the books of the moment.
But there was this little kind of gap.
People are catching their breath.
5:24
And the book landed and that summer and then it just continued to slowly grow and slowly find its way into not just national audiences.
That’s where it first went.
And then in ensuing months, it kind of snuck into white evangelical spaces.
5:43
It was smuggled in in many cases where all it took was one, one person in a small group or in a church or, you know, to say, hey, guys, let’s let’s read this book.
And and that’s when it it started to really grow.
Wow, wow.
And I can imagine even the backlash.
6:02
That took a while, too, to manifest, and I was waiting for it.
I expected some, and honestly, I was hoping for some.
Nobody, right?
Nobody had heard of Kristen de May.
I was a figure within evangelicalism at all.
6:18
So I know how this world works, and I knew that if some of these figures, some of these Theo Bros in particular, took on the book and that they would make a big thing out of it.
And I could leverage that and they knew it too.
So the first almost year they completely ignored the bug.
6:36
And I was just like, come on, guys, it’s going to happen at some point.
And then it’s like they all had a group text or something and all of them boom all at once.
And then we went through months where there was like a critical review a day and they were just, and most of them were completely like they were just misrepresenting the book, misquoting me just completely.
6:59
So for a while there, for several months, I carried a book on me whenever I traveled, whenever I was going so I could just screenshot and be like, no, that’s not what I said.
Here’s what I said.
And I stand by every word of it.
So it was wild there for a while.
Yeah, yeah, I thought.
Yeah, I can imagine.
7:15
I can imagine.
I mean, I got called a black supremacist and I’m like, clearly you didn’t read the book.
Clearly you didn’t read the book, but.
That’s it.
I’m like, there’s enough for you to disagree with in the book, but let’s just keep it there.
Like you don’t have to make all this stuff.
Up.
Really.
7:30
Make it up.
Yeah.
What was your most surprising revelation you discovered doing your research because you had to do a lot of research.
And I know with a PhD working at Calvin, you’re used to research.
And So what was some of this?
Was anything surprising for you?
7:47
I will say that the worst surprise was essentially what went into the last chapter of the book, which is on sex abuse, because I had actually started looking into evangelical masculinity in the early 2000s.
And so I had been kind of poking into this, did sustained research for a year and a half back in the early 2000s, set the project aside.
8:11
But in those ensuing years, I still kept an eye on those spaces and the men who had drawn my attention to militant masculinity guys, the warrior masculinity guys.
And then that’s when I started seeing how one after another became implicated in abuse, sex abuse, abuse of power, either directly or indirectly defending their friends who are perpetrators.
8:31
And it was really grappling with that and trying to explain what what was going on there, not just with the perpetrators, right?
There’s bad guys everywhere.
But I became kind of obsessed with figuring out these communities.
Why were these, you know, quote, UN, quote, good people over and over and over again siding with perpetrators and pushing out victims and their allies?
8:56
And it was stunning what I was uncovering.
And I really struggled to write that chapter.
I tried to get my editor to tell me it didn’t have to be in the book.
It was a really, really hard chapter to research and write and but he said no, it belongs in this book.
9:13
And it does.
It does.
So that’s something I did not in any way expect to see.
I was not looking for it.
It just kind of came at me and I had to include it.
Yeah.
And there’s still so much silence around there, Yes.
And we’re seeing that, you know, it’s one thing to expect it like in the world and you know, and some of the highest places in leadership that you see, but the church should be different.
9:39
And to see that like infused and empowered and within the church is just deeply saddened.
And I do believe, like, you know, I am one of those people.
I believe in restoration.
I believe in redemption.
9:54
I, I do believe that the Lord doesn’t throw people away, but I most importantly, I believe that there is a process that of truth telling, repentance and accountability that has to take place for and, and when I say repentance of turning away from, you know, yes, to take place for there to be restoration, you know, and it and it could be that in that process that you’re not in a place of leadership like that with that, you know, it may mean that you have to do something different, but I think there is a humility and vulnerability that comes with that, that I, you know, that that I would like to see.
10:39
But yeah, it’s that a lot of that makes us so sad because you have so many people who are touched by that and wounded by that, and it just continues to go on and on.
Do you think like when we talk about cultural icons like a John Wayne and the influence, like the influence of that, how you use that term?
10:58
Why did you why did you use John Wayne and this whole connection of evangelical masculinity?
But then now like you writing this and what we’re seeing playing that we’re going to get to that because what we’re seeing coming out of this now five years later, basically, I mean, you, you gave a blueprint, you gave a blueprint.
11:20
Do you think this like how do you see the future of this and where do we go?
I mean, yes, First off, the John Wayne question.
Yeah.
Honestly, if I could have figured out a way to fit Jesus and Mel Gibson’s William Wallace from the movie Braveheart into a title, I may have gone in that direction because he appears with more frequency in some of these books written in the 2000s.
11:42
But John Wayne is symbolic and of this kind of vision of the white man with the gun, righteous violence, the ends justifies the means and this real nostalgic sense of we have to restore things to the way that they once were.
11:59
But it’s mythical, right?
You know, this is a mythical character here, although John Wayne himself was very involved in right wing politics.
And so there’s, you know, there’s a kind of it works in that, in that respect as well.
But mostly when I started reading all these books on Christian manhood, I was struck by the fact that they don’t quote the Bible much at all.
12:20
And they don’t look to Jesus much at all either.
And they don’t.
Talk about love at.
All they do not, they do not talk about the fruit of the Spirit.
They do not right.
So there’s these are not biblical models.
And I think so when you see them looking at pop culture, at mythical warriors, at make believe and then using that as a standard for Christian manhood, that just just it doesn’t just warp their understanding of manhood, it warps their understanding of Christianity itself.
12:47
And that’s really what I wanted to get at on this kind of pop culture symbol and what that does to the faith itself.
And then what is it?
What does it mean for now?
You’re right.
Like the book came out almost five years ago now.
And I have felt this growing horror.
13:04
I mean, first of all, like, you want your book to be relevant, right?
So I was like, wow, just like I thought, I thought this book mattered, right?
You’re like, oh, good.
And then I was very ready to go back to my normal life, to step out of the spotlight, not have all the interviews.
13:22
And then it just kept being relevant and it got more and more relevant.
January 6th happened and that kind of focus, the nation’s attention on Christian nationalism.
And so I was in spaces talking about that.
13:37
And then things got worse and worse.
And it honestly has been just with this growing sense of horror, not just because I had mapped out kind of the contours of this, but because I knew the evil at the heart of this ideology.
I had been.
13:52
So you asked about surprises before.
Another surprise I will say that I wasn’t expecting to find was such an emphasis on authority, authority, submission, this hierarchy and and submission to not to God, but to the authorities that God supposedly put, you know, ahead of you.
14:11
So women to men, but there was racial hierarchies in this as well.
But just this obsession going back to the 60s and these and evangelical spaces on authority, authority, authority, that to me is not the heart of the gospel message, but that was the heart of this ideology that I was seeing.
14:29
And at the time when I was researching this, I thought, wow, I mean, if I didn’t know any better, this really looks like setting the stage for authoritarianism.
It really what keeps this from going in into that space.
And, and now we’re, we’re seeing like it, it, it is a seedbed for an embrace of authoritarian politics.
14:49
And so understanding how deep that goes is, is really chilling.
And it has been for me, or I’d say the last 12 months of watching things play out and knowing the end game and having so many Americans, including American Christians, including progressives, Democrats, not being able to comprehend what it is that we’re looking at.
15:16
Right, right.
And I, I want you to define Christian nationalism.
But I, I just wanted to say I was, I think it was two years ago, I was on a panel and it was with some Christian leaders from Europe and I think they were from London.
15:32
And they were just talking about how, you know, it’s just like kind of like the word on the street here in America, Like look what happened to Europe.
And, you know, look at the church as the client there that, you know, all these things.
But she was saying that, you know, that that’s not true.
15:47
Like there’s more fruit happening.
It looks different.
But, you know, the church is not married to the state like that, you know, and those way, ways, it seemed like a, a more authentic Christianity that was, you know, really being birthed there.
16:05
And so, you know, we were on this panel, we were talking about the civil rights movement as as revival.
You know, that’s the that was the the topic.
And then I think it was last week, you know, there’s this report that came out out of Europe and how the church is growing and, you know, and I was just like, oh God, it’s like, I mean, I felt like this cringe because I’m like, Americans are going to try to go there and corrupt it.
16:30
Like, like what?
And you know, and then you’re always like, okay, what kind of Christianity?
Now I have to ask that question.
Like is it white Christian nationalism?
Yes, our is the.
Same report and had the same question because yes, all of the kind of gloating on and, and apologies, but evangelicals have been doing a lot of gloating in recent decades as they’re watching the numbers of the mainline decline.
16:54
And up until recently, evangelicals like going up and so on.
And we can talk about statistics and such, but I was always uncomfortable with that.
Yeah, kind of celebration and schadenfreude because, yes, what kind of Christianity are we talking about?
17:09
Let’s look at the fruit.
Let’s exactly look at the fruit and what it has produced.
And just like what it has done.
It’s like we’re just really seeing a overlayer of the foundation of, you know, of white evangelicalism.
17:27
You know, that is like the foundation of the system of whiteness, you know, white supremacy when you think about even the founding of this country.
But now I see how we can get how that happened.
Before, I never understood how did that happen?
17:43
And so many people said silent, like, how did the Holocaust happen?
You didn’t understand it.
Now I know exactly.
It is humbling.
It is humbling because you know exactly how it happened.
And for those people who are not taking seriously thinking that oh, we, we won’t ever go back there.
18:00
Like when you look at how people are informed and shaped in their belief systems and how they self preserved, like, you know, I’m like, wow.
So how do you define Christian nationalism?
So for those of us that are listening and you’re hearing us talk about this, like we’ve had some definitions.
18:18
Yeah, yeah.
You know, Jamar has talked about his definition of it.
Jamar’s great.
Yeah, that was Jamar’s.
But so I when I was writing Jesus in general, and I use the term Christian nationalism in the book a couple of times because I say that this militant Christian masculinity makes no sense outside of the context of white Christian nationalism, right, Right.
18:41
This idea that you have to fight for to protect faith, family and nation, right?
That’s what I’m getting at.
And this militancy really doesn’t make sense if you don’t have it situated in that kind of battle context.
So I looked for like, OK, I better give my readers a definition.
18:57
So I looked up different definitions.
You know, sociologists are really good at giving us the lengthy definitions.
And I just rejected them all.
Not that they were wrong.
They were just way too wordy.
Like, you couldn’t really, like, capture it.
So I made-up my own on the spot.
And it’s held up pretty well.
I just said, you know, layperson’s term or definition.
19:16
White Christian nationalism is the idea that America was founded as a Christian nation and by which people usually being one that looks just like conservative white evangelicalism today, but founded as a Christian nation and needs to be defended as such, right.
19:32
So there’s this sense of loss or sense of right, we need to fight to keep it this way.
And frankly, it’s a mythical understanding of the Christian founding, not that we didn’t have Christian founders, but a mythical notion of and, and you can look into stuff like David Barton’s teachings and stuff to, to, to like see what I’m talking about the myth, You know, he’ll, he’ll talk about the myth of the separation of church and state.
19:57
He will like make stuff up and say it’s in the founding documents when it’s not to try to present America and the Constitution as a distinctly, you know, Christian nation and that the Constitution can only possibly protect the rights that align with.
20:14
God’s laws, and he’ll tell you what all those are, right?
You know, this is what we’re talking about.
Yeah, yeah.
And it’s funny because I was approached with that ideology probably around 2017, right after Charlottesville.
I spoke at a church in Grand Rapids.
And then, yeah.
20:30
And then, and then I had someone come up to me afterwards and they, you know, they did their hands like this.
And those of you who can’t see now kind of put it taking my fingers and put it inside the other hand.
And he said, you know, the Bible and the Constitution are like this.
20:49
And I looked at him and you know me, I’m still that girl.
And, you know, and I’m not going to try to be super spiritual with this.
First of all, that’s a lie I said and, and what I said was I didn’t say that was a lie, but I’m just in my head, I’m thinking that’s a lie.
21:06
And I knew enough.
I had never heard of it what I was what I was being approached with, but I knew enough to know that that was wrong.
And I said, I said, you talk about the same constitution that counted me as 3/5 of the person.
So what, what does that say to me?
21:23
And and and and the imago day like it.
What does that say when you’re saying in the Bible and the Constitution that had to be amended?
That doesn’t speak to me.
And I just remember just being so like confused.
And now I, I get it.
21:41
I get what where he was coming from.
And Scripture, Scripture debunks all of that, you know, even the notion of this nationalistic supremacy type ideology.
For those of you listen, the Bible and the Constitution are not connected.
21:58
They are not.
Constitution is not a spiritual document.
Period.
He was not directly inspired by God.
Right.
And it was not correct by God.
Yeah.
And it’s broken.
Something that committed genocide, something that committed enslavement, something that that that evoked the the manifest destiny.
22:17
Like God is nowhere in that.
And stop putting that on God.
Like, listen, whoa, I’m like, whoa, like, like, listen, cuz God is going to have the last word.
I mean, and how we have evoked this and not only that, we have actually transported this ideology globally into, you know, other denominations.
22:40
And this is not sometimes just a white thing.
This is you see this in Latin America really big time as a historian, what are some things that you have seen that people have done in the past that work to advance justice?
And what ways would you say as bridge builders who are listening to this with all of this stuff?
23:01
Like one of the things I said, we have the tools, we have the we know what is happening.
We may not have the antidote, but in some ways we don’t.
We, you know, we know that it’s the the truth in the word of God, but what would you say to that?
23:17
Like how do we continue to advance justice and righteousness?
And where should bridge builders put their energy doing this?
I love that question.
I’ll I’ll start with what you just said.
Truth.
We have the truth, but we, we have to testify to the truth.
23:34
And there are so many lies being shared right now and being celebrated and, and with, you know, coercive power behind them.
It’s very simple.
Just tell the truth.
And then to tell the truth in a time like this, it also takes courage.
23:49
So you need to, you need to have courage.
And it’s actually not hard to have courage.
We have to start exercising this truth telling because it’s hard to like take a big risk if you haven’t been taking little risks.
And if you take little risks, guess what?
24:05
Like you find other people who are taking those risks and then you’re not alone.
And then the risks are not so great.
And you, you just get strength from community and strength from watching other people take risks and tell the truth like it is.
It is really not scary to be doing this work, not most days at least.
24:24
It’s actually really empowering because if you start telling the truth, if you start showing up, if you and showing up in your body is really important right now.
Like it’s one thing to make phone calls to your your representatives and stuff, and that’s great.
But it’s in this day and age when so much is virtual, showing up in person at a protest, at a town hall, that matters a whole lot more.
24:46
And from history, what we know is a small number of dedicated people who are telling the truth and who are doing so bravely.
Not always, but many times in our history, those people have been religiously inspired people.
25:03
And if you look at the civil rights movement, if you look at Beloved Community, that’s what that was.
It was people coming together, holding together with a deep sense of moral rightness, like knowing this was the right thing, of putting their lives on the line for the sake of others.
25:26
The other Grand Railroad.
Absolutely.
And this, this changes history and it’s stunning to me right now.
I will say as a story and like you said, like you, you look back to history, you’re like, oh, now I get how it happened.
It’s stunning to me to watch in these last couple of months the institutions and individuals who have the most power bending the knee.
25:49
Why?
Because they want to preserve that power.
It’s just stunning.
It’s up to the rest of us.
They want to preserve power and control, but also at the center of that is greed.
Absolutely.
They want to keep what they have and they want to get more.
26:06
And that’s exactly what this administration is holding out to them.
The great temptation, you bend the knee, not only will we leave you alone for now, but you might get some real perks here.
So if you’re a law firm, if you’re a university, you know, what choice are you going to make?
26:22
And I think that all of us have a choice to make.
And ideally, people have faced have a really clear choice to make right there.
Yeah, and I, I think about this, you know, where it comes with the with the cost, because you bend the knee now you’re going to have to continue to bend, bend, bend until you’re, you’re completely lost.
26:42
And eventually it will come for you.
It will come for you.
His history.
History shows us, you know, that it will come for you.
And I mean, I tell you what, what are what are the three most important issues that you think there’s?
So it’s over.
It’s so overwhelming right now.
26:59
And you know, what I have to do is like, OK, I’m going to do the next right thing, the next thing I know to do because it could be overwhelming like me on Fridays.
Like I’m turning off social media.
I don’t watch the news over the weekends.
I have to take a break from it all.
So those of you who text me and call me and tell me I don’t want to hear it on the weekend because that’s how I am going to preserve myself during this time.
27:26
But what are the things, the three most important issues that need to be addressed right now that you believe, Kristen?
Oh, let me see if I can distill to three.
This may be a somewhat random list of three, but if I think kind of in our political moment, what are the issues that are most troubling me?
27:45
Yeah, the, the first I will say is simply the hate and the disdain and the evil that I am seeing being sprouted from the highest places of power against people of color, against immigrants, against people who are disabled.
28:05
And, and this is nothing new.
We have seen this, I mean, in this movement for a decade now.
It’s it’s no false advertising, no bait and switch, right?
This is very clear.
However, I, I think we all have to maintain our ability to be shocked and it is the cruelty at the heart that the images of those, you know, prisoners who did not receive our detainees, did not receive due process deported.
28:33
We don’t know who these men are and they are still even if they had gang affiliations, they are still image bearers and they’ll deserve.
Due process.
Due process and basic human right.
And the fact that apparently this administration knows that if they pick the right demographic, they can get away with this.
28:55
And then which one are they coming for next?
But even if they come for no more next, right?
This is, although historically speaking, they always do.
This is absolutely off limits.
Not OK.
So I would say that would be #1 So yes, the hate, the, the absolute disregard for the Constitution should be just stunning and, and frankly should have everybody out in the streets.
29:31
And the fact that we aren’t is something that I have had a hard time processing.
And I get it, it, it comes like drip, drip, drip.
And we, we all have our media echo chambers and we’re all distracted and we all have our busy lives and we have all the other things.
But I mean, if we could just take any headline from the last couple of months and, and, and, and move it like back like even two years ago, certainly 10 years ago, we would, we would not believe this was our country.
30:02
So the erosion of our constitutional rights across the board is stunning to me.
When I was working with scholars and democracy, pro democracy folks in the period after the election and before the inauguration, people are talking about bright lines.
30:21
Like, OK, we have to figure out bright lines.
There are so many bright lines that have been crossed and yet here we are.
So that And then third, I would already mention this, but just that Frank dishonesty.
30:39
It’s just no, like we can have political disagreements, so we can have deep political and even irreconcilable political disagreements, but we must hold to the truth and, and that erosion of trust and people, the willingness of people to embrace whatever concocted story happens to be like, fed to them in any given moment as long as it aligns with their comfortable value system.
31:10
Again, as, as, as, as Christians, that is Antichrist, right, Right.
Jesus said he is the truth and the life.
So those would be my my big three.
And and it’s so much of what we’re seeing are all like under those 3 umbrellas.
31:29
Yeah, that’s that’s good.
I think we’re you’re right on, on locking arms with me and, and some of the things that I’m concerned about, you know, I think one of the, the things that you said, it’s just like just holding like to the truth and you know, and like the truth isn’t relevant.
31:47
Like, you know, I mean, people don’t recognize the truth.
And I think, you know, why is experts and scholars, you know, why they should be trusted and why scholarship is still important.
You know, that’s something that I think, wait, because when you’re ignorant and people can control you and they can feed you this.
32:08
But when you have scholarship are when you are educated and you’re not just from this place of trying to see what you believe already that this is like some people, you know, because of their political or partisan affiliation.
32:25
I’m going to believe all of that, although I know scholarly that this makes no sense.
You know, discounting all science is irrational, you know, And what would you say?
Why is scholarship still important?
So I’m, I’m biased towards historical scholarship, all scholarship great, right?
32:45
But you know, as a historian, let me say that like there is a reason that historians have largely been at the forefront of kind of resistance to the proto authoritarian, authoritarian movement that’s taking hold.
33:02
And we have been for a decade now.
And that’s not typical of historians.
We tend not to be like wanting the limelight.
We our natural habitat is in the archives and then in front of our computer screens.
But when you have this historical knowledge, you can see patterns and there is an authoritarian playbook.
33:24
And those of us who know that historically, who have studied 20th century European history, have studied kind of the rise of global authoritarianism, who know what factors need to get checked off for this authoritarian takeover to happen and know what can like push it back.
33:42
Like we’ve had our checklist and we’re checking them off and we’re trying to alert people to, to what’s happening because we have seen this before, right?
This is nothing new.
This is just So what was shocking honestly to me is just how much of A like by the book movement this is.
34:02
There’s no, there’s nothing creative like even their, even their imagery and their like the symbols that they use and they’re kind of like artwork and all that stuff.
It’s like, Oh my gosh, like you, you guys, I didn’t even know.
Like clearly like either they’re reading the histories and then like applying it or there’s just some kind of universal instinct that want to be as authoritarian dictators just like into it.
34:29
But they’re they’re doing it by the book.
Yeah, it’s, it’s by the book.
And that’s why historical context is so important.
This is why it’s important to know your history.
This is why history is being attacked.
And, and, and, you know, and so that’s why even with African Americans, you know, just the disregard to our history, just our, our, our, our embodiment, like all of that.
34:51
And the people, what I would say to people who are listening, you can’t put anything past what is happening.
Don’t think it won’t go there because the way this is playing out, it will go there.
And we’re dealing, we’re not dealing with flesh and blood, you know, and, and that’s, that’s the thing we have to realize this is definitely spiritual also that’s happening.
35:12
You know, so we have told our community, we have to keep telling the truth.
And like you said, you have to show up, show up with your body.
And I would say white people have to show up.
This is like on the streets.
It’s not, I do not feel like that is a role for black people because it would be a, a way to invoke martial law.
35:34
And so I, I wish I could knight all my white people.
There are things that that you can do that our bodies cannot do, but we, we have a role to play.
And, and, and, and locking those arms.
Like you think about these massive, I think about the civil rights movement.
35:53
There were so many women that, that you didn’t see, they were on the streets marching, but they were, they were the orchestrators behind the scenes, you know, and, and, and so there’s a way to work together.
And I also believe that the unity of the remnant, the unity of, I would say the global majority in that sense, because I do not believe that they got a majority.
36:15
This ideology is not the majority.
They are not, and they know it too.
Location, yes.
The unification of the voices that come together, being able to not play Oppression Olympics and also being able to wow because there are some things that have to take place before other things take place.
36:31
And I think those are some of the things that we have to realize in this.
So I am grateful for you.
I’m grateful for your voice, grateful for your book that you have, that you are a truth telling.
I know you’re working on something else.
You know, I know you can’t share it.
You know you can’t share it.
36:47
But if you whatever you can share with the audience so they can expect it and maybe when they can expect it coming out.
Yes, I can.
I can share.
It is called Live Laugh Love and it’s a cultural history of white Christian womanhood.
And as Latasha knows, she is going to be in it in the last chapter because she has some insights into that world as well.
37:07
And it will be out.
I’m finishing it up last chapters right now so it will be out sometime in 2026.
Oh, wow, see, we’re so great.
And so this is the thing that I tell our community and, and places I have the opportunity to speak is that we are at a point where there’s so much information that is available.
37:26
There’s so the historical context is out there, you know, like they may take books out of the library, but you can’t you can still get them, you know, you know, we have access like the world is global.
We are globally connected through the Internet and this wasn’t the case in years before.
37:44
We have so many resources and opportunities, but we have to be willing to be courageous and we can’t, you know, you know, really self preserve like we cannot do that.
We have to be courageous.
We have to be brave and continue to use our voices and speak truth.
38:02
So thank you so much.
Thank you for all of your work.
It’s a pleasure to interview you.
The book is Jesus and John Wayne how white evangel evangelicals corrupted a faith and fractured a nation.
And we didn’t get a chance to dig, to dig deep into that because I, these are some of the questions that I additionally want to talk about the DARS movement, the new Apostolic Reformation and how that is interplayed and what we’re seeing now take place.
38:32
And then the the seven mountains, this whole dominion, this theology, this corrupt theology around dominion that we’re seeing that many people have embraced and how we have to have a theological, how there is a theological answer for it already.
38:52
Absolutely.
But how we have to keep speaking that theological truth because there’s so many who have biblically illiterate.
I would say that they have embraced these movements.
And this is a lot of the groups that are pushing what we’re seeing coming from this administration.
39:10
So we didn’t get to go there, but maybe we’ll have to come back.
Another time.
Have that conversation and we’re going to continue to I break truth on this podcast.
So thank you so much for your time.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge Podcast.
39:26
To find out more about Be the Bridge and what we offer, visit bethebridge.com.
Partner with us in this work at bethebridge.com/give, Connect with us on social media, and remember, you are not alone in your pursuit of righteousness and justice.
39:42
Latasha Morrison is the executive producer, Sarah Connatser is the producer, and transcripts are done by a wonderful team of volunteers.
Thanks for listening.
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