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These conversations took place at our Juneteenth Crawl this year. The first part is an interview with Rev. Dr. Tony Sundermeier and Rev. Dr. Katie Sundermeier of First Presbyterian Church of Atlanta sharing how their church is involved in justice work. Then, Dr. Debbie Stevens, a Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner, shares about the integral work of mental health especially for the BIPOC community.
We hope these conversations remind you that there is hope and there is help! Even now, there is justice work happening in local contexts all around.
Join in the conversation on our social media pages on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn to let us know your thoughts on this episode!
Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison
Producer – Sarah Connatser
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Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.
*this was transcribed by Spotify and has not been checked for errors
0:01
Latasha had the opportunity to sit with a few people in the Atlanta community at our Juneteenth crawl this year, and we want to bring these interviews to you because it’s crucial in this time that we remember there is real work happening in local contexts.
0:17
You’ll hear some background noise, but that’s because of the outdoor setup during our event and hopefully even that will remind you that conversations are happening all around to promote justice.
Keep pressing on bridge builders, There is hope.
I am so excited to be here with the Reverend and Dr. Reverend Doctors 2, Reverend Doctors Katie and Tony Suttermeyer, and I am just honored.
0:49
First of all, I’ve known you for a couple years.
You’re involved in Be the Bridge and we actually had dinner together.
I think your group won something and we got a chance to sit down.
So I just love when there are powerful ministry couples that are doing work together.
1:08
And I love the work that you guys are doing in the community here.
So I wanted to bring you guys out here on this in honor of Juneteenth, you know, to talk a little bit about just some of the resistance work that you’re doing.
And this is, you know, what Juneteenth is a time of reflection, also celebration.
1:27
And there’s a renewed commitment to justice.
And I think the work that you guys are doing elevates just the the the broadness of what justice can look like.
And we were just talking before where doing your part looks different for a lot of different churches.
1:44
And I love how you guys have tapped into to to the mental health space.
And I want to hear about that, that journey.
This moment invites us to consider how I think other faith communities can join in this work or find even another Ave. as it relates to justice to, to grapple with and to to target in their community.
2:10
But I think one of the beautiful things you have looked at your community and seen the need and you’re feeling that need to the best of your ability within your congregation.
So I’m excited about that.
So I would love just to hear from you, Tony, you know, just, you know, what kind of led you down this pathway as a church and to form this nonprofit organization.
2:35
Thank you for having us and thank you for your incredible work that has been a model for our congregation and little small groups and big groups, yeah, both here in Atlanta and now.
I love it.
Around the country and the world.
So thank you.
2:51
We, we came to Atlanta from Philadelphia and First Presbyterian Church of Atlanta has always had a, an outward facing focus in terms of wanting to bloom where it’s planted, wanting to be able to address the needs of the most immediate community.
So we stepped into a congregation that was teaching us more than we were teaching it.
3:12
But one of the things that we have found is with with First Press being open to responding to the moment and the particular needs.
And so that includes mental health care, which Katie, I know we’ll share a little bit about in just a few moments with our Samaritan Counseling Center.
3:30
But it also includes A robust outreach to about 2000 people a year, most of whom are experiencing homelessness.
We have 3 full time social workers on the church staff.
We have our own little sort of nonprofit that’s not a separate nonprofit.
3:46
It’s just part of the church. 7 full time employees in that space.
We have a food market, we do IDs.
We do get entitlements and benefits for people who are due to receive those.
We help with housing, help with people get re acclimated after incarceration.
4:04
We have a program called Redemption after Prison.
It’s a peer LED support group for mostly men who have come out of situations of being imprisoned.
We have a nine studio apartments for women in transition that can live rent free 6 to 12 months on our campus.
4:23
And we have a case manager that works with them.
And yeah, so incredible sort of response right in the heart of Midtown, where in the arts district, I look out and I see the arts the the, the High Museum of Art, right where they film Black Panther.
4:41
Think about that often.
And so we’re just trying to bloom where we’re planted and and live into that space from where I think especially as we mark Juneteenth and mark this time and hold space for this time, our goal.
We’re we’re part of a historically white denomination.
4:58
We come from Scotland.
We’re in Atlanta, where the Black church is strong and thriving.
And so we want to be partners in helping to amplify Black voices.
That’s been our biggest goal over the last, I would say, five years.
5:13
How do we amplify Black voices?
That includes being a partner with Challenge of Stats, which is a group led by Angelica Harrison, who seeks to elevate black artists in traditionally white spaces, particularly in classical arts.
And so we’re next door neighbors with the Which of Arts Center, so they.
5:32
Yeah, Challenge of Stats uses our space and we’ve we sponsor concerts and programming.
John C Smith is the the only historic black seminary in the Presbyterian Church USA.
They are now housed at first Pres.
5:48
So their offices rent free.
And so those kinds of opportunities, we have a group called Creating Beloved Community that is trying to stay current and relevant with all that’s happening out in the world with dialogue Fellowship.
And so, yeah, so we’re trying to, we’re trying to do our part right, given our own history and our own location.
6:11
And we’re grateful to have partners like Be the Bridge who encourage us along the way.
And just to hear you, I’m like.
This is what the.
Church is about and I know this is what gives our community hope because there’s other churches and other pastors that are listening in to the bridging work that you’re doing and you’re blooming where you are.
6:31
And so and your partner.
And it’s not like you’re, you’re there and you’re like, OK, we’re here, God is here, but you’re like, OK, what are the needs?
And who can we partner with, with who can we elevate?
Who can we amplify?
And I think those are the right questions to answer.
And I’m so grateful to, to know you.
6:47
I’m just hearing like I’m even finding out some additional things as I’m sitting here and interviewing you and I’m like, wow, like it gives me so much hope when there’s a lot, a lot of like, you know, I would say greatness in the in in the church area right now.
There’s a lot of people who are displeased and, you know, kind of really remorseful about some of the direction of the church.
7:13
But when you hear about what’s happened at first Pres, you’re like, you see God is moving, God is still moving.
There’s always a remnant.
And you guys represent a part of that.
And I would love for you to talk, Katie, just a little bit about some of the the things that your church is doing as it relates to specifically mental health.
7:34
And what was the maybe catalytic moment for, for for your church to really get involved with some of the mental health where you actually have like therapist and counselors and social workers on staff.
Yeah.
7:51
So as Tony said, we inherited the congregation that’s been committed to this, which is what got us to move from Philadelphia to come down here.
But 26 years ago, the church decided to launch a mental health counseling center.
8:07
And it’s actually a separate nonprofit.
It’s the it’s housed in this church and it was funded and launched by this church, but with the clear commitment in making it a separate nonprofit of saying this is absolutely for the people of First Press and friends of First Press, but it’s also for all people of any religion or no religion.
8:30
And started in this twofold mission 26 years ago that we have, I’ve been the executive director for nine years.
And so we have changed and grown in a lot of ways as needed within our context.
But the twofold mission has stayed the same.
And that is to provide spiritually integrated psychotherapy when somebody is looking for that and there’s a lot of healing that is needed and people’s religious and different experiences and that background.
8:59
And there’s a lot of times where when we can pair one’s faith and hope and God’s presence with mental health and struggles that miracles happened.
So really creating space for that.
And the other part of our mission is to provide mental health counseling for people who otherwise wouldn’t be able to afford it.
9:18
So we see about 650 to 700 sessions a month, and 60% of those are subsidized.
So we raise a lot of money to make sure that people can afford an especially long term care.
So if you’re if you’re dealing with when we talk about injustices, that’s not something that if you have are trying to actually heal from some things and move forward, that’s not a sixth session.
9:47
Here you go.
We’re.
Done right.
So so being able to do long term work and be able to afford it is really important to us.
Right, so.
Well, I tell you one thing on this Juneteenth with everything that’s happening in culture of sitting now, having a conversation with you and what your church is doing has brought a lot of hope to me.
10:08
And you know, we were just talking about like everybody just doing their part and those parts look different.
A lot of times we feel like everyone, everyone’s part has to look the same and it doesn’t.
And if you look at any social movements, what you’re doing is a lifestyle.
10:26
It’s not just a movement.
For one thing, you’re carrying on the legacy that was left from the leaders of the church who started the church, but also you’re continuing this long line of people who have contributed to this lifestyle and to this movement in various ways.
10:44
You know, and I and I, and that’s the thing that I recognize is the beauty.
You’re going to sometimes have people on the front lines.
You’re going to have sometimes people in the, the corporate offices, but it all makes sense and it’s all needed.
And so I’m grateful for First first friends and the work that you’re doing.
11:02
Keep it up.
This is how we show the world how to do bridges.
And you’re, you’re doing it right here where you planted.
So I know they’re going to be pastors that are listening to this.
They’re going to be like, okay, how do, how do we get a blueprint?
How did y’all start this?
11:18
We need this, especially right now with so much going on.
Like mental health is so important because you know, without it, you know, it, it, it can create a sense of hopelessness.
And when you have hopelessness, you have lawlessness and you know, and so I think those are some of the things that we have to remember in that society that we, we are called to care for the marginalized.
11:40
And I think I’m first friends is remembering that.
So thank you so much.
I, I would love to just just write off, you know, I like to sometimes just, if I feel that like what it, what is a scripture that like kind of helps guide you in the, in the work you’re doing, especially when it gets difficult and, and hard, You know, what is something that’s kind of guiding you?
12:03
I’m going to share OK and anything can be edited then you can have it to think.
But one of the things, especially in my work with the counseling center in this past year that has guided me is let us not grow weary in doing what is good.
In another translation, let us not grow weary in doing what is right.
12:21
And I just speaking with Be the Bridge about four years in to my work as a director of this counseling center was COVID in 2020.
And that’s when I started the my first Be the Bridge group via Zoom due due to COVID.
12:41
And one of the things that most impacted me then in my work back in the center came out of one of those small groups and we were talking about something hard that was going on around racial injustice.
12:56
And I was sharing as somebody who has childhood abuse in my background, that often times when these difficult times come, I just freeze.
Like, I just have to, I don’t do anything.
I have to just, you know, And one of the women I’d come to know and appreciate who was black said to me, that’s a privilege, you know?
13:17
And and she wasn’t, she was very gentle because it was, she understood where it was coming from.
For me.
But to recognize in the work that we do, in all the ways that we’re called, there’s always a way that we can respond, you know, and that in the mental health field where we’re trying to not grow weary and keep doing what is good and right, the more that we can figure out what that looks like for us.
13:49
And as as a white person in that context, to not think, well, I don’t know what to do, but to do something.
So thank you for being the bridge I love.
It I.
Love it, it’s your verse.
Well, that this is a dangerous question asking somebody who likes to, I know, preach 23 minutes service.
14:07
No2 Reverend Doctors 2 Reverend Doctors.
I think for me, what I was just multiple texts came in, but I think the one that’s most resonant for our what we’re marking today and what we’re holding space for today is John 11, when Jesus is outside of the tomb of Lazarus and he calls Lazarus come out and Lazarus comes out and the end of the story in John 11.
14:29
Is that the right John says that Jesus said that to the people that were there.
Unwrap him and let him go.
And that’s a comical situation, right?
Because here’s Laser’s coming out in the burial clothes.
14:45
I don’t know if you like rolled out or you.
Hopped.
Yeah, for what?
How to get?
Out how we smell exactly?
Yeah.
Days he’s been dead and the people just go nuts.
They’re like the hits just keep coming with this Jesus guy, right?
Like unbelievable.
And they’re so enthralled about him being raised from the dead.
15:02
They don’t take off this burial.
Clothes.
They don’t take off the dead man clothes.
I think part of what you do, part of what we do and the work that we’re mutually sharing together is helping people take the dead man clothes off their eyes so they can see the image of God in the other.
15:18
Or take it off the hands so that they can serve and wash feet.
Take it off the heart to to be moved by the things God has moved about.
So I think that’s our principal work is helping people get Jesus raises people the new life, but we help people get untied so they can be the people God’s called them to be.
15:40
So good.
Well, thank you so much.
It’s been good to have you.
Thank you.
And I appreciate all the work that you’re doing.
Same, same.
Thank you.
Do you have a story of hope in your community?
We would love to hear.
We want to know how bridge builders are showing up in your areas.
15:59
E-mail [email protected].
Be the bridge.
You are finally going to get to meet someone in person that is actually in the book.
But I’m here with Doctor Debbie Stevens and if you’re a long time listener of the podcast, you and you’ve been following me for many years, you know that Debbie is actually one of my best friends and some of her experience as a healthcare professional, you know, it’s also covered in the book.
16:31
And so it’s I’m, I’m grateful to have you here, not just as a friend, but as a mental health professional, especially in the culture that we’re in now.
I would love for you just to share a little bit about why you chose this bill and why it’s important to you.
16:50
And then we can just dive in, OK?
Well, first of all, I want to say thank you for this opportunity.
Although we have a a 30 year span of friendship, I still have been a huge fan of your work and I greatly admire the work that Be the Bridge is doing.
17:07
And I feel like there’s a lot of alignment between the work that you’re doing in this space and mental health advocacy.
So I’m thankful for this opportunity.
But yeah, I’ve been passionate about mental health, going all the way back to undergrad experiences and being able to connect with people in their most vulnerable times of their lives.
17:26
And when they’re either in acute crisis or in states of despair and depression or a lot of fear and panic, and being able to partner with them during those most vulnerable times.
I feel like the unique way that God has shaped me and giving me a heart for people have I’ve been able to be used and served and I serve in a way that I see people’s lives restored.
17:50
And so it’s just been a very rewarding career for me.
And I’ve done a lot of different things over the years, but but just been very grateful for the opportunity to serve these people.
Right.
And we’re here in Atlanta, and I know one of the things that you’re passionate about is just this space of dealing with backpack.
18:12
Patients who have.
Unique experiences, and I know some of that you incorporated because you’re now on the Mayor’s council and you know, So what kind of, you know, and I know this is something that you are, you know, being on that board that you are making recommendations, but what kind of unique challenges do you feel that Black, Indigenous people of color face, you know, within the space of mental health?
18:40
Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned that because I feel like right now we’re in a very tumultuous time politically, you know, all the things that we’ve gone through in our communities racially, you know, and then you look at the pandemic, so even just.
19:00
You know, across the globe.
People are more stressed, but yes, we as bar talk communities and people groups, we have experienced unique stressors on top of everything that everyone on the planet.
Is going.
Through, right, because of the historical injustices that we’ve experienced with oppression and, and legalized segregation and ongoing discrimination, there is this invisible kind of load that we carry of just being people of color in the world that sometimes people don’t see.
19:34
So it’s, you know, recognizing, OK, are people mistreated me because of who I am and what I look like and how do I navigate that?
And then and that spans from the least fortunate because when I was working at Mercy Care, which is a federally qualified healthcare center.
19:51
So we’re serving people who are unsheltered, unhoused all the way into private practice spaces where I’m working with attorneys and medical professionals and academic, you know, professionals.
Who are?
Also in spaces where they may be the only one, so now they’re experiencing, you know, mistreatment or different micro questions and they’re questioning, OK, how do I navigate this space?
20:14
So I think sometimes it could be dealing with social injustices, you know, and, and a broad span all the way down and all the way down to individual experiences on a one to one basis that people are trying to navigate.
And a lot of times people in the majority, I mean they don’t think about those.
20:30
Right, right.
And so as a professional, you have to kind of tailor your care there to deal with those unique needs.
Right.
Yeah.
So I, you know, because of that what I was on that invisible.
Load of just.
Being a person of color, and then you may come from a culture that really prioritizes family and faith, and so they may not lean into professional health and support.
21:00
And so you have to start breaking down a lot of the stigma, lack of knowledge.
So it takes a lot for people to get in front of me, you know?
So that’s why working on the Mayor’s Advisory Council is the important work because there’s a need for awareness so that we can address stigma so people can realize it is OK to ask for help.
21:24
And this is what I know I need help.
But a lot of that is still being disseminated in the community.
It’s not just going to pray away, you know, like, yeah, I saw a show.
I think it’s like it says like prayer and therapy or I forget what it was but it’s.
21:42
Like prayer works and therapy does too.
Yeah, yeah, Something like.
Medication works too, yeah.
And I think that’s important, you know, especially in a lot of the spaces when you’re talking about bipod that it goes hand in hand, you know, and so and I think you have an experience in both, you’re able to merge that faith part along with the the scientific part practices and show people how it goes.
22:09
Yeah, Tasha, that’s one of the things I really, I don’t say I pride myself, but I haven’t recognized that this is something that has made me a unique provider because a lot of times when people are seeking out someone who is culturally competent, sometimes they they approach me apologetically.
22:27
Like I’m sorry to say this but I I wanted a black woman.
I’m like.
Girl, you got apologize for that?
Want to, you know, saying.
Because you want to be seen.
They, they don’t want to explain like I’m feeling like maybe this could be because of my race.
22:43
They want to be like, have you considered that this could be because of who you are and what you look like?
And so I think that when you understand intimately and personally what the, the culture is like.
Oh.
OK, so this is.
22:59
A why you didn’t feel safe to talk about this with your parents or in your community.
Oh this is the reason why they told you to pray and they didn’t want to take you to therapy.
They didn’t want to get you diagnosed for ADHD.
They just, you know, whoop you the braising fruit, you know, so it’s like acknowledging some of that disconnect.
23:17
And, you know, I would say isolation, but some of the the we just lack that knowledge.
We didn’t have access.
And so I think when you understand the community, you understand the values and then you bring in, OK.
23:32
But this is what we’ve learned through research.
This is 20 years of experience of working with people like you.
This is what I’ve learned.
This is my clinical expertise.
It’s a blend that, but then do it in a way where they like, OK, girl, right, We be friends and we were in this space, right?
That makes people feel really validated.
23:49
Because you have a way of you’re able to connect because of your cultural knowledge, your cultural intelligence, and your.
Experience.
Exactly.
And so that’s so good.
How does historical generational trauma?
Because you think about where we are now And I, I even think about like some of the things my mom is experiencing right now with the culture that we’re in today, where history, different things are being rolled back.
24:16
Like, and I know it is very triggering for a lot of the baby boom boomer generation and then even some of the maybe Gen.
X people.
How does your historical generational, how do you think historical generational trauma show up in your practice?
24:37
Like when you’re dealing with that?
And I know like especially like people from our baby boomer generation who marched and who sat at lunch tables, who many of them have been spit on, beat up, like all of the things and they see this reversal.
24:59
What are some of the what kind of healing strategies or things that you feel that could be effective even for where we are right now?
Yeah, I think that’s an excellent point because a lot the generation before.
US.
Like our parents generation, you know, growing up in the in the 60s and 70s, they were, you know, they were like alive and well during the civil rights movement.
25:23
And so they may have experienced just upfront like, you know, racism in your face, being called certain names and mistreated.
And that becomes part of their understanding of the world, their understanding of the country, the understanding of politics.
25:38
And so they have, you know, said things and done things to their children and said things to their children that help form, you know, certain.
Belief systems and so.
Sometimes it shows up as anger, it show up as anxiety, It show up as irritability where sometimes people may have a prolonged negative.
26:03
Perspective.
You know it could show up.
As.
Hyper vigilance, you know, because it can be a trauma response to you’re always kind of looking and detecting a threat you’re looking.
For someone to.
Maybe mistreat you or or, you know, treat you differently.
26:22
So I think that a lot of and because we know that historical trauma isn’t just being called the N word, but it’s been denied access to the knowledge and the resources needed to have, you know, healthy perspective about mental Wellness.
So a lot of times it shows up as stigma and mistrust, You know, that they don’t understand what is it that you do?
26:45
Because we know, we remember the Tuskegee experiment.
We.
Know about?
You know how we’ve been betrayed by medical and research scientific communities.
And so I think partly this one of the strategies for me is to name it, to say, hey, this is what we’ve gone through.
27:06
And these are the ways that we’ve been traumatized as a people, as a collective, and a lot of times providing space for people just to share their experiences.
And then I’m almost like a remember the when you’re little and you got to connect the dots and make a picture like one to two to three.
27:24
And so sometimes for me, I feel like I’m connecting the dots and helping people to see, okay, is it possible that you’ve had these spelled marriages because you know, you’re, you know, lack of trust because what you’ve seen your mother had to go through?
Because.
What her parents had to go through.
27:41
And so a lot of times people when they feel seen and they feel heard and you’re, they don’t feel alone.
So it allows them to feel numbered, you know, with, you know, with others.
And that collective experience can provide healing and recovery.
27:59
That’s so good.
I think, you know, sitting here listening, these are really good things to think about now.
So I think we have to have a lot of patience with each other right now.
And I think also when I think about our community is like the black church has been like a a safe place, you know, for for many people, but now, you know, when we see things happening within the church as a whole, that doesn’t even seem like a safe place.
28:30
This is like, this is mistrust because of how religion has been used.
And so it’s, I think it’s important, like you were saying, to remember to connect those dots on why someone may be responding a way to like even spiritual leadership, you know, because of their, their past trauma and the, the current trauma that’s happening with so, so much like unhealthy theology and different things like that.
28:58
So that’s important.
I’m just thinking about that as you’re talking, why some people are having like just the resistance, you know, that they may be having, you know, within our culture.
What are some encouraging tips as we close?
What are some encouraging tips you can offer to bridge builders as we’re talking about mental health in this day and age, You know, with everything we have coming at us, I’m being like, it seems like the whole world is on fire.
29:26
It seems like the whole world is on fire.
So what are some things, you know, I know it’s like, you know, breathing techniques help like all of those things.
I would say to your audience, people who follow your work or maybe listening to this podcast that you know, I see you, you are seeing.
29:53
And while you are holding space and doing this work and carrying your own pain, you’re not alone.
You know, And I want to encourage you to give yourself permission to find rest, to get your own support and you know, whatever you need to cultivate healing for yourself so that you could keep doing the work because we need you, because I everyone is called to do the specific work in this specific way.
30:25
And so if God’s touched your heart to be interested in racial reconciliation, racial unity, we need you.
And I want, I want you to know that peace is not just in this huge experience.
30:41
And then, you know, in a church service, God could meet you in very small sacred ways.
You know, we’re, we’re finding ways that cultivate joy like you see women doing jump rope game nights.
You know, coloring you.
30:57
Know there’s all kind of ways to kind of cultivate joy in your life.
So I would say find that rhythm of activism and rest, you know, of being doing resistance work, but then also renewal, you know, just find that rhythm, you know, lean into it when you have the strength, but then also get that replenishment when you need it to.
31:18
I love it.
I think one of the things you said, like people, there’s a need to be seen and to be, to be known.
And I think as a African American, and a lot of times you can feel invisible and especially when there’s actual erasure happening, like you don’t matter and.
31:38
We’ve.
Seen that throughout generations and this is Swahili.
Swahili word when they greet each other instead of like how we say hello, you know, they say Sabania and it meets Savonia and it and it actually means it doesn’t mean.
31:54
Like hello, like.
But there’s a their language is deeper in its expression and it means you are seeing Yes.
So it’s like the greeting is giving acknowledgement to your existence.
Yes.
And I was like we.
32:11
We need.
We need.
Swahili words to express our human experiences and and there, and there’s this reply this like is I may pronounce it wrong, but it’s like sipping me and it and it means then I am here.
32:33
I got you and.
It’s so powerful, like like you are seeing and it’s like you’re caring it’s.
Like a validating, it’s like validating who you are in this space, and that is a huge part of healing and recovery.
32:50
Yes.
So part about resistance is we need to learn Swahili, yeah.
I.
Love it.
I love it.
Well, thank you so much, Doctor Debbie, for just always lending your expertise, for all the work that you that you do and for how you really, truly see people and you humanize people and you do make people feel like they are seeing no matter what their background experience.
33:15
I wouldn’t know when you’re talking to someone.
I wouldn’t know if you’re talking to someone, someone that’s the CEO of an organization or someone that’s living their houses on the street and you humanize people and I think we can learn a lot from that.
So I love you and I appreciate you.
33:30
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for joining us on the Be the Bridge.
My pleasure.
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge podcast.
To find out more about Be the Bridge and what we offer, visit bethebridge.com, [email protected]/give Connect with us on social media and remember you are not alone in your pursuit of righteousness and justice.
33:56
Latasha Morrison is the executive producer, Sarah Connatser is the producer and transcripts are done by a wonderful team of volunteers.
Thanks for listening.
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