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Jefferson and Gina from the Be the Bridge team co-host an insightful conversation with Dr. Nicholas Rowe and Sheila Wise Rowe where they delve into the themes of leadership, healing, and self-awareness. They discuss their new book, Healing Leadership Trauma: Finding Emotional Health and Helping Others Flourish. The conversation emphasizes the need for cross-ethnic reconciliation and the role of systemic issues in leadership dynamics. Ultimately, they highlight the hope found in nurturing relationships and the transformative power of God in the journey of leadership.
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Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison
Producer – Sarah Connatser
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Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.
*this was transcribed by Spotify and has not been checked for errors
0:02
Welcome to the Be the Bridge podcast.
Be the Bridge exists to empower people and culture toward racial healing, equity, and reconciliation.
Latasha Morrison founded Be the Bridge in 2016 to foster needed dialogue and brave spaces and to give people the tools to pursue racial justice.
0:22
We provide resources and community to do just that, and this podcast is one of those resources.
You’ll hear interviews hosted by Latasha and our team, conversations about current events, and encouragement for your racial literacy journey.
Thank you for listening, subscribing and engaging in this important work.
0:44
So I’m excited.
What’s up everybody?
Just welcome to our podcast on today.
I’m Jefferson Jones.
I’m the youth and university program manager for Be the Bridge, and we are delighted to have Doctor Nicholas and Sheila Wise row.
0:59
And I just know that we got some amazing things to talk about today.
Yes, we do.
I’m excited as well.
Jefferson and I am Gina Fimble and I’m an educator with Be the Bridge.
I work in the training department as well with a lot of white people and I am so excited to introduce Sheila Wise Row.
1:22
Sheila Wise Row is a graduate of Tufts University and Cambridge College with a Masters degree in Counseling Psychology.
For over 25 years she has counseled abuse trauma survivors in the United States.
Sheila ministered to homeless and abused women and children in Johannesburg, South Africa where she also taught counseling and trauma related courses for a decade.
1:47
She is the Co founder of the Sirene Movement and online community for people of color seeking healing for racial trauma.
She is the author of Healing Racial Trauma, The Will of Life, Heal Your Pain, Satisfy Your Thirst, Live Your Purpose along with the Wonder Years.
2:06
She lives in the Boston area where she is a writer, counselor, speaker, and spiritual director.
And we are so excited that both Sheila and her husband, Doctor Nicholas Rowe, have written a book called Healing Leadership, Trauma, Finding Emotional Health, and Helping Others Flourish.
2:25
And I cannot wait to talk about this book.
Awesome.
And so now we also have Doctor Nicholas Rowe.
He is a historian and the Hansen Associate Professor of Leadership at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.
2:41
He has over 30 years experience in senior leadership roles in higher education and nonprofit organizations and is a consultant in cross ethnic reconciliation and conflict resolution in the United States and South Africa.
2:57
Doctor Nicholas also provides spiritual direction for individuals and reconciling communities.
He and his wife, Sheila Wise Row, live in Boston and have a daughter, son, daughter-in-law and grandchild.
All right, here we go.
3:13
Y’all ready?
Yes.
Thank you.
All right.
Thank you for having us.
Yes.
Wow.
Welcome to the Be the Bridge podcast.
Yeah, it seems like you’re in a stage of life where you’re very, very busy.
You’ve got grandchildren, you’re writing books, you’re doing all the things, which is amazing.
3:31
And we’re thrilled to have you here to talk about this book that you guys are releasing together.
Part of our vision at Be the Bridge states that we help people and organizations become aware and respond to the racial brokenness and systemic injustice in our world so that all are equipped to flourish.
3:50
Telling Leadership Trauma is a much needed book for the Bridge builder community.
Tell us, what do you see flourishing looking like?
Well, you know what, I think that one of the the core pieces of the work is really one of challenging leaders, not just pastors, but leaders, Christian leaders to begin to really do the work that’s necessary in order to really effectively lead.
4:18
But even more than the effectiveness about leadership, it really is about their soul care and what are the challenges and the internal struggles that they need to address in order to, to really serve the body of Christ and those who are not members of the body of Christ in a way that has integrity.
4:37
And a lot of what we see out there, the damage that is being done, it’s to to really mitigate that.
But also it’s it’s about how does this person go forward in a more healthy and godly way and their own lives just living with integrity.
4:55
I think a lot about Jesus, Jesus’s fundamental commandment, right, which is to to love God from top to bottom and to love your neighbor as yourself.
But in order to love our neighbors as ourselves, there’s got to be a sentence in which we love ourselves too.
5:11
And what we find, what we find a lot with leaders who are dealing with issues of trauma or who are traumatizing those who follow them, is that there are places inside of them, places of their inner formation of their context, which have really impaired their ability to not even just relate to others.
5:33
Well, just to sort of relate to their own selves.
Well, they don’t know themselves very well.
We’re spending a whole lot of time trying to avoid the broken places.
We’re just trying to March on and, you know, fake it as we make it.
And all of that is costly.
It’s costly in terms of how we see ourselves, how we relate to others, and how we relate to God.
5:54
And that does show up in leadership.
Leadership will is going to be guaranteed to expose those places of deficiency within us.
And so if you wanted the definition of flourishing, it’s really just being on the path to resolving those those places of impairment.
6:10
We will never be fully done until we sit in the Lord’s presence.
Praise be to God, but but we are responsible in terms of how we surrender to God to allow Him to transform those places inside of us that can really impair our ability to to love.
That’s so good.
6:28
I’m going to run it back.
I don’t, I don’t want us to like run past what you said about the greatest commandment and Jesus command to love God from top to bottom, but then also to love your neighbor as you love yourself.
6:44
So we see that there is a direct correlation and connection between the vertical to the horizontal.
And so in that though, there’s a, there’s a centerpiece as well about loving the self.
And then as Jesus said, he, he took it a step further in John 13 and he said, love, love one another as I have loved you, he said, and then as you do this, they will know that you are my disciples.
7:12
And so we have to, and I think to in order to flourish.
Well, as you already mentioned that we got to deal with the self and a lot of we want to, we want to bypass, we want to use scripture out of context about and then spiritual bypass, the need to care for and the love self.
7:29
And some will twist it and say, well, I, no, I don’t need to do that, but you do.
We have to and in order to flourish.
Well, that we we we cannot neglect our faith in his love for us.
Exactly this.
Is this OK?
7:44
I’m gonna stop.
OK it.
Also, this is well, this is so good.
It also reminds me of a quote from Llama Rod Owens which says if we don’t do the work, then we become the work for other people.
8:01
Very good, that’s.
True part.
Of I want that, I want the citation later.
Part of this leadership journey, I believe, is doing the work that we need to do so we can show up in spaces and not cause harm.
And specifically, I’m thinking about whiteness and being socialized in white culture and having to unpack that a little bit before I show up into diverse spaces so I’m not causing harm in those spaces.
8:31
So, so good.
Thank you for that.
Now I want to share part of an endorsement from our friend Raymond Chang.
He said leadership is often a burdensome responsibility, but the burden can be shared.
8:48
Nicholas Roe and Sheila Wise role offer themselves as guides to leaders who are navigating the weight of leadership.
So as we think about that, what are some of the burdens you see leaders facing right now?
9:04
Wow.
I think, you know, we, we’ve seen like this post pandemic, just how churches have in many ways had to shift, had to shift how they’re doing church, how they’re ministering to their people, the weight of that people are not showing up.
9:22
There’s been a reduction in terms of, you know, income coming in.
So the church is Hanford in terms of how it’s able to serve.
And so there’s a stress level that I, I believe in this season is really heightening.
And because of this particular season we’re in, you throw in the election cycle and all the craziness that is happening right now.
9:43
And I think for leaders, they’re dealing with multiple things.
They’re, they’re juggling, you know, what we’ve referred to before about what’s going on internally.
A lot of that is about, you know, it, it goes all the way back, family of origin stuff.
Then we continue, we move into the present where they’re dealing with all of what I’ve talked about past been postemic, the pandemic, and then they’re having to stress about the future and about how do I carry my church forward?
10:14
How do I carry my ministry, my my role, my job responsibilities.
There’s a fear there that I’m going to drop the ball, I’m going to fail.
And so for leaders, they’re carrying all of those things, the weight of the past, the present and the future.
And it is, it becomes so heavy that in many cases, that’s when you see in the cases of pastors, pastors leaving and in cases of people who are working in their workplace, people are shifting jobs because of this.
10:44
And so it’s something that we absolutely have to pay attention to.
Yeah, and I think just being human, the stress level right now feels a little bit at least what I’ve experienced.
I’m getting ready to hit 50 for the first half of my life.
11:00
You know, I feel like just the stress of being human has really gone up since the pandemic.
We have wars that we’re seeing.
We have, as you mentioned, the election cycle.
There’s just so much that is happening that can affect their body, mind and spirit.
11:17
And so I think really leaning into taking care of our body, mind and spirit is almost like a necessity right now, and especially for leaders.
You know, I think a lot about Eugene Peterson, who who’s a pretty good influence on me.
11:35
But but one of the things he talks about, and I think this has always been a challenge, particularly for pastors but also for leaders of organizations, is that many followers have preconceived notions about what you as a leader are supposed to do and that you’re just supposed to conform to what they want.
11:51
So I’m thinking, I’m thinking Moses coming out of Egypt and, and everybody had this expectation of everything happening and it’s not happening the way they want things over which lead has no control or, you know, you’re not, you know, citing the right things in this political season or you’re not making me feel happy.
12:08
And unfortunately, leaders can contort themselves and twist themselves into all sorts of knots trying to meet other people’s expectations as opposed to really knowing themselves well and being in touch with the Holy Spirit to know what must be done right.
12:28
And so that that’s a huge burden to carry.
And if there is not some sense of inner groundedness about how much God loves me and a sense of what God has called me to do, then where’s that verse in Ephesians?
12:47
We get blown all over the place by the waves or particularly by those we follow.
And it can be a very messy situation in a while in, in, in a hot while.
And so those things, those burdens can really eat up leaders in a hurry.
13:04
And I think we’re seeing a lot of that.
Just a, you know, if you look at Barna does a whole lot of things on leaders right now.
And there’s a lot of statistics about just really troublesome qualities of leadership right now, largely because folks are not rooted in who they are and what they’re supposed to do as God has designed them, right?
13:25
We are God’s workmanship, created to do good things in Christ Jesus, which he has purpose in advance to do.
This is not something God is making up on the fly.
It’s it’s there.
But there’s so many things that can get in the way of us getting into that groove, and that can be a burden in and of itself.
13:43
I also wanted to just add that, you know, in that place of, you know, what we’re supposed to do that for some leaders, what we’re supposed to do was for a particular season and for some other leaders who are abusive, what they were called to do, they abuse that privilege.
14:04
And so then the question is that season is over.
And so for leaders, it really is assessing and being prayerful about what you know, If it gets to the point where I am not loving the Lord my God with all my heart and soul and loving my neighbor, my neighbor as myself, my congregant, my whoever, my coworker, then there has to be this assessment of what’s going on, what’s going on internally.
14:29
And is this a time?
A time when it’s it’s time to go?
Yeah, because I think so many people associate leadership withholding others accountable.
And really, it seems like what you’re getting to at the core of this message is holding yourself accountable and, and really getting to know yourself and doing the work to understand why you may be showing up in a particular way or why a word or phrase may trigger something in you to respond in a certain way or whatever it is.
15:05
It sounds like your book is really getting to the heart of getting to know ourselves.
What else would you say is different about this book on leadership compared to the other books that are out there about leadership?
I think a lot of those books are are about how to be a better leader.
15:24
So how how to do.
And I would say that our book really centers on being, it is your internal like your being, your being a child of God.
You’re being a human, you’re being a person who is a neighbor, you being a person who is looking beyond yourself as well.
15:45
And so I would say that is the core challenge and difference.
The other thing is that, you know, you see some some books that are around emotional intelligence, but again, it almost feels like it’s externalized in terms of, well, if you just do these things, then you will be more emotionally intelligent to your Co workers.
16:07
You’ll be nicer.
You’ll be able to say this phrase or that phrase and so, and not that that shouldn’t be, it absolutely should be.
And those tools are great.
But again, when we start to externalize things in a way that’s detached from what is going on, what’s going on is going to leak out in one way or another.
16:25
Come.
On regardless of what tools we have and so we’re really challenging leaders that looking inward not by yourself with God and even the whole thing about holding yourself accountable.
Yes, we do that.
We also, I firmly believe in having other people who will hold you accountable and actually hold your feet to the fire and not just, you know, you come in and you can kind of dump and then carry on.
16:53
There is there is a critical fundamental thing And you know, I was I was talking to one of my students yesterday, particularly about the book and yeah, she was, she was rather inamd with the design.
See the design over our shoulder over here.
17:08
Just a book design and and I talked about the sort of running inside joke that if you go to the airport and you see all these, you go, you did the airport bookstores, There’s always this big chunk devoted to all these business leaders, right, these hard charging business leaders doing this and the other and they have these, you know, deep black covers with silver lining.
17:28
And you know, it’s, it’s, it’s all about doing, doing strategy, strategy, strategy.
And I think we’re starting from a more fundamental, but also vulnerable place.
And that is you can do all the stuff in the world you want, but really fundamentally, the only way you grow is with the power of God, the transforming power of the word and the Holy Spirit in your life.
17:54
Fundamentally, only God can heal.
Only God can raise the dead.
There are some dead places in US.
And if those places aren’t done, if those places aren’t addressed, if those places don’t experience the resurrecting power of the Holy Spirit and we carry that into our leadership, other things will die.
18:19
So that must There’s just no negotiation around that.
That has to be addressed.
You have to look at those places.
That’s so good.
That made me think of real quick.
I, I, I see things in my head and different Bible stories pop up from time to time.
18:36
But for me, when what you just expressed and even what you expressed, Sheila, Martha and Mary popped up for me.
And when you think about that story, Mary was worshipping Jesus, Martha was worshipping her work.
18:52
And one was concerned about doing, the other was concerned about being.
One was more focused on relationship and the other was focused more on rituals.
And so I think as we learn to lead, you know, I think there’s a little quote and it’s on your it’s on your banner says he’ll first lead 2nd, right.
19:18
And so in this, this makes me think about how as leaders that we have to understand who we are at the core and God is more concerned about our being versus doing and the doing flows out of our being.
19:35
There you go.
Right.
The doing flows out of our being.
And I think, you know, I think about a quote from your first book and it said if we all speak up and engage in small and large acts that pursue love, peace and justice, we can dismantle the systemic structures that promote racism, xenophobia, white supremacy and privilege.
20:00
And this was in healing racial trauma, the road to resilience.
As I think about that, you think about love, peace, justice.
Those are those are like core character Kingdom things.
But if I’m not aligned with who I am my identity, if I’m not married more to identity, then I am a title.
20:23
I’m going to miss those things.
I’m going to miss showing up and really being who God wants me to be for myself, but then also for other people.
So this is just hopeful.
This is this is just so good and this I’m excited about reading the book as a leader and I’m just excited to see what comes out of this.
20:45
Before we move on to, I feel like I would like to say, and I think it’s such a great point that we have to have the power of the Holy Spirit to help us.
And you know, it’s God who brings the dead to life.
At the same time, I think it’s fair to say that that the Holy Spirit can use those people on earth, whether that’s our therapist, whether that’s a good cup of coffee, whether that’s a mentor, as Sheila was saying earlier, that we need other people to help hold us accountable.
21:19
So I just want to mention that because there’s no, I think as much as we like to feel that we progressed in this society when it comes to removing stigma away from mental health issues, I do feel I still believe there’s a stigma out there.
21:35
And so, you know, it’s, it’s Jesus and therapy, right?
Come on.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So Sheila, who, who are you hoping?
And Doctor Nicholas, who do you, who are you hoping picks up this book?
21:51
Who do you want to see?
Order this book and go through it and eat it and digest it and then live it out.
Well, you know what?
I I think that we’re really trusting that God is going to, you know, far and wide.
I certainly experience that with healing racial trauma.
22:09
Also my second book, which wasn’t mentioned, but young, gifted and black that I was really surprised with healing racial trauma that the number of people and Christians and not who actually picked up the book and and it it continues to be used.
22:26
And so anyone who’s in that leadership space.
And so we’re not just talking about, you know, the high level of leadership, the pastor, the CEO, the, you know, we have a variety of stories in the book where people who they’re experiencing various levels of leadership trauma in various different forms.
22:47
And so, and so they represent the spectrum.
We share our stories, we vulnerably go in and, and reveal some of our own struggles and our journey as well.
And so I think in that way, we really are casting a wider net in terms of, well, what is a leader?
23:04
And you know, if we want to look at it, everybody in some capacity is leading and it’s whether that you know, you’re a parent, you know, or, or you’re a CEO or, but we’re all leading.
Or both.
Yes or both exactly.
But I think that specifically for those who are in roles where they’re they are overseeing people, this will be extremely helpful for them.
23:32
And, and I would also just say that it also may give insight to some, some folk who don’t consider themselves like major leaders over a bunch of people, but it can give some insight in terms of the leadership that you’re, that you’re under what the dynamics that are going on in that church scenario or that workplace in terms of having some better understanding of what might be motivating a particular person.
24:00
Or we can just look at them and put a stick, a label on them and say that person is just whatever, they’re just toxic or that person’s doesn’t want to work or that person, but what actually may be going on inside of them.
And in that way, it’s offering a place of more, maybe more compassion to a certain extent, but also a point, more importantly, it’s a point of prayer.
24:22
It’s it’s praying for, for that person.
Exactly.
That’s good.
So Doctor Nicholas, I want to, I want to add another flavor to the same question, just to give it to you a little different because I know that you focus, you work you as a consultant in cross ethnic reconciliation.
24:39
And so in that we know that cross ethnic reconciliation can’t happen if there isn’t cross ethnic understanding, empathy, humility, and so much more.
So with this book, how do you see it?
How are you hoping that it it impacts different ethnic groups or impacts groups across a diversity?
25:01
Yeah, I, I thanks for that question.
We, we were very, very intentional about making sure we address this matter in the context of leadership and more importantly, that we tried to scripturally ground a biblical understanding of who a person is.
25:25
OK, what it means to be a bearer of God’s image.
Now maybe it’s just, you know, this is the academic part in me.
So we always go back-to-back to the fundamental first principles and, and, and I think that’s actually important to discuss that because if we don’t understand what it means to be a human being created in God’s image, then it becomes very, very easy to operate under one’s own cultural assumptions as to what a human being is.
25:55
And then all of our relational dynamics work out of that, especially leadership.
Leadership is a relational dimension, OK?
It’s not just about getting stuff done.
You have to be in healthy relationship with the people you lead in order to get stuff done.
26:14
And so that when we talk about cross cultural competence, it means how to have healthy relationships across the boundary lines that society and history and frankly sin and racism have done to distort, distort our understanding of how my brother and sister who is not out of my cultural, ethnic or racial context, how they distort how they are human.
26:45
I don’t understand their full humanity.
And so I lead out of that distorted vision of their humanity, thus imparting harm, thus instrumentalizing them, right?
So I’m a leader.
I have to get things done.
And I start making people into things become a means to an end rather than an end unto itself, out of which in relationship to them, God does things right.
27:13
Yes, Sir.
So when we talk about these dimensions, when we talk about, you know, white supremacy, when we talk about these things, let me also just say this.
And I think it’s important to say this because, you know, some folks listening to this podcast will hear the term white supremacy and have an allergic response like, you know.
27:35
Hopefully not by now if they if they’re listening to the podcast, hopefully they’ve done some work in the bridge and they’re not going to have an allergic response.
But yeah, you know what?
You know, my habit is to over explain things.
I’m a teacher, sue me.
That’s just the way it works.
But the but the you know, when we refer to white, it’s because of the history in this space and the groups that have benefited from it.
27:57
It’s not simply an A fact of your being white in and of itself.
So we can have these supremacist structures that put people in a social hierarchy within our society, but you may have people who are not white who also buy into it and say that’s the way things are and they kind of go along with it, which is the distortion of how God sees all of us.
28:20
And so that’s something we need to reject.
All of us need to reject.
We need to see how God sees all of us.
And God is no respecter of persons, as my mom would say.
And so we need God’s help in order for us to be able to relate to our brothers and sisters well across any of these dividing lines and to see them as God sees them.
28:45
Then in the context of that, we are able to engage with follow as well and as well as lead well, right.
So, you know, the book does talk about some of the things that the dynamics that we have to confront within ourselves.
29:03
We also talk for those who have been on the receiving end, right, of this, you know, faulty, diseased way of looking at other human beings, how they can start to walk into healing around that.
How how to how to come out of agreement with it, how to respond well to it when it happens to oneself so that everybody gets served in the end, right.
29:35
Yeah.
Look, the the church is going to need very culturally competent leaders.
It’s just non negotiable now.
We can’t get away.
We can’t get away with thinking that it’s an option.
It’s just there’s no, no messing around with it now.
29:50
It has to be something that we have to think about.
Yeah, I, I also want to just add in that, you know, we, we do have like stories and chapters that’s addressing issues around racism and bias.
But one thing I also wanted to say in terms of our focus, yes, is the internal part of the leader.
30:13
And then how does a leader in partnership with others serve better, but also just that they’re living better?
But we don’t want to neglect the whole issue that we’re also dealing with systems.
And so and whether it’s systemic racism or whether it is really dysfunctional systems in the context of where it is that we’re working or that we’re serving.
30:39
And so the, the work that needs to happen is yes, that internal work, but it’s also a system wide work where oftentimes there are systems in place, whether it’s in a church and it’s the deacons say elders, it’s a denomination or it’s, you know, the board for a company that are Co signing a lot of nonsense or, or covering it up or not looking at it.
31:05
And so we’re we’re saying, yeah, it’s personal, but it’s interpersonal and it’s systemic.
This is getting good now this is getting juicy just I love.
Juicy and good.
31:20
And I’m just thinking juicy and good for bodies racialized as white.
A lot of times I think we don’t even understand we’re operating out of distorted cultural socialization or in distorted systems that are full of racism or social institutions that are full of racism.
31:43
So it seems to me that your book might help one might help bodies who have been racialized as white to kind of come to that realization.
And I’m also just thinking that there’s probably many people, many bodies who are racialized as white, who have not really seen and experienced healthy leadership or a leadership that is set apart from kind of this Western productivity like capital listed go, go, go all the time sort of culture.
32:18
And so I know for me, since working, since being lucky enough to work at Be the Bridge and work for Latasha, she truly has invested in her staff to kind of come to grips with some of these issues and the ways that we show up.
32:35
So, gosh, I hope we can read this book together as a staff.
It sounds so good.
Yeah, yeah.
But one of the things that I just feel so endeared to is just the two of you as a couple, that you do life together, but you also have come together in this professional space.
32:58
Tell us, what was that process like?
What did you learn while writing this book together?
Well, you know what, I think the important part is that over the year, so my past was as a therapist and also a spiritual director, but we we ran groups and we did this together with a team.
33:21
The amazing part about the team is that the team goes back to the early 2000s and the team were he and I led and it was a diverse team.
And in some ways that kind of set the, you know, set the stage for what later emerged and that so we’ve really been in the trenches doing this work with not just a diverse team and leading that, but also ministering to a diverse group of people who came and did group.
33:58
And we did couples counselling with people individual.
And so coming to this book was really an extension of what we had already been doing for almost 30 years.
And and so in that way, it was easier to because we we, we lived out the stories in many ways together.
34:20
And then we had our own story and that included being in South Africa.
And, and so that made it easier I think, than maybe some other couples who come together and like they’re coming from different places and then they come together and write.
And so in that way, it was much easier because it’s like, like we’re not talking like we’re just like blowing smoke.
34:43
Like we, we’ve seen it.
We have seen it and and it’s real, like Jesus is real and we have seen people get healed and set free, like we have seen this.
So and that’s the praise God of you know, you’re post 60, then you know, you’ve seen some things and and so that made it a whole lot easier writing together.
35:10
And then I think just because you know, he is, he’s in the practical theology department of the seminary.
I think that him bringing that piece was really important for me because it really, I think it helped to contextualize things in a, in a different way.
35:30
Like I, I’ve experienced pastor pastoring on the ground as a lay pastor and several of the churches that we’ve attended.
But working together, we were able to bounce things off of each other and that really was great.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, definitely, obviously leaning significantly into this therapy counseling space.
35:53
I mean, tell a whole lot of funny stories when we first got married about what that meant to be getting married to a counselor and everything else.
But so she had to find some adjustments being married to an academic who who lives in his head a lot and how I had to learn over time, how to learn over time to make these two things connect.
36:11
And so that so so being witness to God’s transferring process in each other’s lives does undergird a lot of what we’re talking about in in in this book.
36:30
Yeah.
I mean, my, you know, the leadership experiences that, you know, mostly higher Ed, but you know, higher Ed is a very interesting space right now for a lot of different reasons.
If you might even want to talk about leadership dynamics.
It’s very, very interesting.
But I think I think that what that meant was much of my leadership context really has been on the ground and really had to learn the hard way from decisions that I’ve made and that I’ve seen others made that have been good decisions and some not so good.
37:05
And how that aftermath of those things for good or for or for ill.
And but also seeing God at work in terms of redeeming a lot of those things and knowing that God has the has the capacity, he can, he can sort things out.
And I’ve seen him bail a lot of things out.
37:20
So, yeah, I mean, I think I just want to reaffirm something she said.
God, we are our witnesses to the transforming work and power of God and his goodness in this.
We’ve seen, we’ve seen God do some really powerful things in people as they’ve taken the time to surrender to God and say, OK, I’m, I’m a mess here.
37:44
Please God, please have mercy on me and help you including yours truly I mean and God response.
That’s so good.
Just made me think real quick that our lives are the result.
What we see, what people see in our lives is the result of sanctification, in part what the Holy Spirit is doing in us, but then also what we submit ourselves to, to do our own work.
38:11
There’s a practical element where we have to show up and God, God does heal and he has the power to heal, but there’s certain things in us that God isn’t going to do that we have to do our part in this work.
And I think This is why a book like this is so important to help people say, look, yes, God is healer, Holy Spirit is working in US and there is an and to this walk.
38:41
There’s a part where we got to show up and participate with God in his work, right?
And so as I’m thinking about that, that makes me think, go on to think about, you know, we already talked about this being and this doing, and we understand that being is more important than the doing.
39:02
But in and in that as we are being, there should be some doing in our life.
And so just reading this book isn’t the end goal, right?
Just digesting the information, that’s not enough.
Knowing the steps, knowing what healing leadership trauma is all about that head knowledge is not enough.
39:24
So as we are looking to activate our community to take those steps onward, you know, after they, you know, hear a conversation like this, what would you, what would you like readers to do after they read this, this phenomenal book, this healing leadership trauma?
39:41
Well, you know, I think that it’s really one of hopefully reading it as a group, because then there’s a sense of like a shared experience.
Do it in community.
Yeah.
And there is a way in which then you can begin to hold one another accountable and you can begin to think about, well, how do we?
40:00
How do I pray?
I for some reason in the back of my mind, you had mentioned the whole Mary and Martha story.
And I was struck by that because, you know, you have this tube being and doing kind of scenarios.
But it’s very interesting later on when Lazarus dies that it’s not Martha who is doesn’t come out to, it’s Mary, the one who was the being one.
40:23
She sat at his feet, you know, and then he there’s a disappointment and she’s like, no, I’m not coming out to see him.
No, not going to do that.
And so and so it really is that in both of these cases, like you saw, perhaps Mary went through a journey because when it came down to it, you know, Jesus finally shows up.
40:42
She’s the one who comes out.
And that if we look at both of these women and just this, it’s a cultural dance, but it’s a dance.
This is like who we are as people is that we tend to to struggle with that, with being and doing come on and that.
40:57
But when we really submit to the Lord and we say, OK, Lord, what is it?
We’re like we’re attentive to what am I supposed to be doing right now?
What am I supposed to be doing with this information that I’ve just received?
I went through this book.
I took a be the bridge course.
41:13
What am I going to do?
Because this is not just about we’re going to hoard the information internally and do nothing with it.
And so the challenge then becomes praying and, and actually asking the Lord, what do you want me to do with this?
41:29
And and that’s when it becomes more real.
So in some ways, Martha was actually more real by the time we get to the place where Lazarus dies in terms of being more in touch with like who Jesus really is and how he can meet her in that place of pain and how she can come go to him as well.
41:52
Yeah, you know what?
This you know Martha gets in Jesus’s face.
She does.
Uh oh.
I I.
You know, people think, might think that’s a nice conversation because if you were here, yes.
Yes, yes, that’s.
42:10
Important.
Come on, all of us, all of us get into this Christian nice sort of thing and they’re not really emotionally honest before Sir, say that again, please say it one more time.
Say, you know, and, and, and I’m speaking from experience because one of the ways in which I was formed when I was very, very young is that, you know, this is the God of the universe.
42:32
And you know, you keep your pipe shut, you just God does what he does.
But you know what?
Deep in thrive, I’m pissed.
I’m pissed off at him that he didn’t.
Come through.
I’m mad, guy.
But that’s relationship, that’s real, you know?
42:48
I mean, it’s also to understand the nature of God that, you know, he doesn’t snuff out a smoldering Rick.
He God likes honesty.
Be honest, be honest.
OK, we’re tight.
But you know what, I’m I have some problems.
We need to have a chat, right?
43:07
And there’s so many examples of that through Scripture.
I mean, Jonah, David, I mean it.
And and so just I’m just coming back to your question is where are the places in our lives that we have tried to sort of manage all of these things by some fake modesty?
43:29
Or where are the places where we can be really, really gritty?
Come on.
And to be honest about, you know what?
This is the church I’m leading.
But I don’t like these people right now.
You know, you know, there’s got to be places where there is some measure of vulnerability and and let’s be wise about this.
43:55
You don’t do this it to your followers, right?
Let’s see, this is the thing.
You have to be smart.
You have to have some.
Wisdom, relational Dynamics.
We all need some places in our lives where we can be honest and frank with God and with others so as to allow otherwise people to speak the truth to you.
44:16
This is not some self actualizing type of thing.
It doesn’t work like that.
So, and I don’t think, you know, this is not the only thing, but it’s probably the thing that comes to mind.
And that’s such a great illustration that Martha, Martha Mary’s evolution over time, but.
Yeah, that’s good.
44:32
But you see different these are different types of people.
They’re not the, you know, Martha, Mary have different personalities.
So it depends depends on what who the type of person that you are, right.
But at the end of the day, there, there must be a revealing oneself, opening oneself, vulnerability of oneself.
44:52
There’s no going forward without that.
And so starting to build into one’s life those places, those relational places of vulnerability where 1 can be real before others and before God.
It’s how he’s built the system.
45:10
It’s how he’s built us.
We need that.
And if I lie to myself because of the discomfort of the truth about myself, then I’m going to hide the real me from God.
Yep.
Yep.
I think a lot of it goes back to even knowing ourselves and having an awareness like a self-awareness of who we are.
45:34
Because because of the way our culture is in this fast pace, go, go, go.
Oftentimes we’re not even taking the time to reflect on our interactions, whether that be our leadership interactions or interactions that we may have at home or at church or wherever.
45:53
So that that practice of connection, I think can build a lot of empathy and self-awareness.
It’s just making sure that we are slowing down and giving ourselves time to to really get to know ourselves because I swear, I think we do things all the time that even we don’t understand, right?
46:15
It’s like, I can’t, I’m not going to tell you about you.
I’m still trying to get to know me and understand me.
But yeah, I love that.
I love the heal first, lead second.
And you’re on to something, though, and I think that’s really critical.
46:31
And that is we have these things called disciplines.
You know, the disciplines don’t do the healing, but the disciplines put us in a place where we can show up and meet with God, right, rather than distract ourselves or, you know, over busy ourselves.
46:54
I mean that that’s the world shaping is to, you know, expect that we’re going to run ourselves into the ground and not just sit and I I’ll be honest with you, I’m still learning how to do that.
It’s it’s, it’s, it’s a tough discipline, but it’s non negotiable.
47:10
If you’re a leader, you’ve got to take those places just to sit and be quiet.
I also wanted to say that, you know, from a kind of a cross cultural perspective is that I think we need to also more and more dive into, well, what does that look like in different cultural contexts?
47:28
What is that?
Because we can also lean into a very Western perspective about or what we think is, is, you know, being contemplative or whatever, But that the reality of whether it is, you know, my, I look at my black ancestors and I look at the experiences that they had and whether it was in the black church, whether it was in the community, It’s very different.
47:50
And, and looking at that one from the outside can look at that and go, well, wow, that church is really, really noisy and like people are like running down the aisles and like, what was?
And then, but then the reality is, you know, you know, you’re watching these, you know, whether it’s on Instagram or whatever, and people are talking about, well, like they’ve just discovered something they really haven’t.
48:13
It’s like, now we’re going to we need to go into movement and just think, OK, was that not what was happening in the church?
People running up and down the aisle?
Was that?
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
You know, it’s like was that is that not salsa dancing that you saying you put another label on?
48:31
But anyway, so you have to really look at like, how do we embrace all of the body that you know, every time driving nation has something to contribute to, like what is healing look like?
48:49
What is leadership look like?
And it and it looks different in different ways.
So I just wanted to add that piece.
That is so good.
Thank you for adding that.
And also thank you that we, I took the conversation about Mary and Martha a little further because I feel like Martha gets a bad rap all the time.
49:11
And as as me being someone who is a Martha, a recovering Martha who, you know, very much socialized that I needed to produce and my value was tied up in that production.
It’s so countercultural for me to be a Mary.
49:29
And so thank you for that, for that reminder.
I could talk to you guys forever and I know Jefferson could too.
I know that I’m definitely going to be reading this book and purchasing it for others as well.
49:46
Can’t wait.
Thank you so much for your time and all of the labor that I’m sure that not only walking, walking it out in your lives, but to put it down to paper is a whole other a whole other task.
So thank you for that.
50:04
Latasha always ends the podcast with a question and that question is what is giving you hope right now?
What is?
Giving me hope.
50:19
No, you mentioned up front that we’re grandparents and so that, you know, our little grandbaby boy is giving me hope.
And I just think, you know, there are times when I have had this like experience where of just holding him and praying for him and, and God really reminding me that this is this is you and me.
50:45
This is how I nurture you and the way that you love this, this kid, you care for him.
That is what I am doing for you.
And so that gives me personal hope in terms of hope on a, on a bigger scale, I think I, I’m really like, aware of like that whole notion, like, oh, you know, nobody’s there.
51:10
Everybody’s off the deep end.
Everything is just horrible.
And so I’m looking for like every day, like, what are the glimmers of, of hope?
These little shimmers that, that remind me that God is there.
And so that gives me hope.
51:26
You know, occasionally there are these big things, but generally it’s just these little, little glimmers that something is shifting, something is changing.
Yeah, I think for me, because of my profession, I work a lot with young people.
51:45
And although a lot of, although a lot of there’s been a lot of complaints about Gen.
Z and late millennials and da, da, da and everything else like that.
But, but, but I think we also need to see some of the places where they’re particularly, particularly healthy.
52:03
And, and that is just a, an unwillingness to put up with things that don’t work.
And I guess you can say that about every generation at some point because, you know, the, the younger generation sees what’s going on and they say, you know, and they’re aware of it.
52:21
But I also, it’s also good to be working with those who, who on the one side are saying, look, the previous generic patient, you know, you’re, you’re putting up with this and putting up with that and and so on and so forth.
But there’s also a sense in which, at least with a lot of the younger folks I work with, they’re willing to listen.
52:40
They also know that the elders do have.
Stuff.
To, to donate and to give and to receive.
And so that’s a, that’s a, that’s a good, healthy intergenerational balance.
And as a historian, I can tell you that’s not always worked.
52:58
So very, very well.
More often than not, particularly in Western space, we kind of dump our elders aside and everything else.
But I’m not seeing that quickness to do that from Gen.
Z.
They’re very, they’re, they, they know the, the elders have something to say and that’s worth keeping.
53:14
And they, and they have an ear open toward it.
So I’m grateful for that dynamic.
I think that’s, I, my prayer is that they hold on to that space, that they hold on to that willingness to be discerning, right?
There’s a, there’s a significant amount of discernment going on there.
53:31
Not a willingness not just to be lied to or to be made into a, an object to sell things to, right.
So yeah.
Doctor Nicholas and Sheila, I know this is my first time meeting you all and I just want y’all to know y’all are right with me.
53:50
So folks, folks better leave y’all alone.
No, there’s so much, there’s wisdom between the two of you and I can, I can feel it.
And so I’m sure that I’ll be able to feel that as well as I read your book.
So just thank you again and thank you for being here and sharing it with their community.
54:10
Thank you.
Say hi to Latasha.
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge podcast.
To find out more about Be the Bridge and what we offer, visit bethebridge.com, partnerwithusinthiswork at bethebridge.com/give Connect with us on social media and remember you are not alone in your pursuit of righteousness and justice.
54:35
Latasha Morrison is the executive producer, Sarah Connatser is the producer and transcripts are done by a wonderful team of volunteers.
Thanks for listening.
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