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In this episode of the Be the Bridge Podcast, host Latasha Morrison engages with guests Kara Powell and Raymond Chang to discuss the book they co-authored with Jake Mulder, The Future-Focused Church. They explore the challenges facing the church today, particularly regarding youth engagement and diversity. The conversation emphasizes the need for churches to adapt and change, focusing on relational discipleship, modeling diversity, and loving neighbors. Ray and Kara share insights from their in-depth research and the work of Tenx10. This is a helpful discussion especially for those in church leadership but also for anyone who needs to feel hopeful about the church.
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Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison
Producer – Sarah Connatser
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Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.
*this was transcribed by Spotify and has not been checked for errors
0:00
OK, be the bridge family.
We have some of my favorite people here today, people that you may have known a but some maybes a few new voices for you.
But we love to make sure that we are introducing great scholarly work to our community so that you can use for tools and resources and your perspective areas.
0:25
But today we have Doctor Kara Powell.
She is the Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary, of the executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute and the founder of the 10 by 10 collaboration.
0:41
Named by Christianity Today as one of the 50 Women to watch.
Kara speaks regularly at national parenting and leadership conferences.
Kira has authored and co-authored numerous books.
She and her husband Dave are regularly inspired by the learning and laughter that come from their three young adult children.
1:01
And then we have Mr. Raymond Chang here who is the Executive Director of 10 by 10 Collaboration.
He is also the President of the Asian American Christian Collaborative, a pastor and a writer.
Prior to his role at Fuller, Raymond served as the Associate Chaplain for the Discipleship at Wheaton College.
1:23
He has worked in the for profit and nonprofit sectors and served in the Peace Corps in Panama.
Learn something new, Ray.
He and his wife Jessica are proud parents of their beautiful baby daughter Sophia, and they reside in Chicago.
1:40
So welcome to the Be the Bridge podcast.
Welcome to the Be the Bridge community.
Ray, you’ve been here before.
I care.
I think this is your first time.
I think that’s right.
Being with us, yes.
And it’s so good to see you.
We have one in the Illinois Chicago area and Garrison here from California.
1:59
So we’re all across the globe right now.
So you are listening to people that are really, really in three different time zones right about now.
Yep.
And we are digitally connected.
Yes, yes, so welcome.
We’re going to talk about your book that you co-authored today with Jake Mulder and it’s called the future focused church and leading through change, engaging the next generation and building a more diverse tomorrow.
2:26
And this is really important to me.
You know, a lot of my formative work in the church was with was with Next Gen. ministries.
That’s I think we met through youth specialties and Orange and all of that.
You know, back in the day when I was doing that work, I think, I think our first encounter may have been in, I have no idea, but I remember it was with youth specialties.
2:52
I think it was through Jeannie Stevens and we were on a panel together.
We were doing something called Her Story back in the day.
You.
See, that was a long time ago.
3:07
That was a long time ago.
So we’ve been we’ve been at this for a while and Ray, we’ve met through of your work that you’re you’re doing with the Asian American Collaborative.
And so we’ve seen each other on and off in this this advocacy work and standing in the gap and in the middle in the midst of the chaos.
3:26
So let’s talk about the future focused church because this is a great for such a time as this conversation because right now when I think about, I know, listen, my head knows that the future of the church is in good hands, but my heart and what I see, it’s a little scary out here in these streets right now, right?
3:47
Tell us what this book is about some of the key challenges that you found in your research that the church is currently facing, especially as it relates to our youth.
I know there’s a lot of other issues that the church is facing, but I know you can’t dive into all of those issues.
4:04
But you guys are you’re focused on a specific area and share some of the elements of what your research look like.
Yeah, so the two of us, along with Jake Mulder, wrote a book called The Future Focused Church with the subtitles Leading Through Change, Engaging the Next Generation and Building a More Diverse Tomorrow.
4:24
And as we were doing the work that we’re doing, we realized that a lot of people felt were increasingly feeling the need to change.
But we’re asking the question on how to change and what areas to prioritize.
And so this book really was birthed out of that.
4:40
But you asked about some of the key challenges that we found in our research and some of the challenges that the church is facing at the moment.
One of the things that we we we see several things, including the fact that us Christian leaders are increasingly dedicated yet increasingly drained.
4:57
There was a study in 2023 from the EPIC Multi Year Study where 53% of religious leaders were found to have seriously considered leaving pastoral ministry, which is up from an already astonishing 37% in 2020.
5:13
Pastors who are younger, female, part time, or by vocational are also likely more likely to consider quitting.
We’re also seeing that the average church is getting smaller instead of larger.
The median worship size has declined from 137 people in 20 in in 2000 to 75, which is a significant drop, almost half in 2023.
5:35
The number of Christians in the US is also shrinking and not growing.
In 2778% of the US population of adults identified as Christian, that figure dropped to 63% in 2021 and is projected by Pew to drop the low the 50% mark in 2070.
5:53
And the the rise of the nuns is a real kind of trend where between 2007 and 2021, the rise of the nuns has increased from 16 to 29%.
And so almost a third or one in three US adults are identifying as religiously unaffiliated compared to one in every 20 in the 1970 in 1972.
6:16
And then you have like young people who don’t trust institutions where one of our partners along with Be the bridge.
We’re really excited about partnering with it.
Then by then Springtime came out with a report that said that 13 to 25 year olds are almost three times likely to say that they’ve been hurt by organized religion and and trust organized religion.
6:37
And so our hypocrisy, moral failures, unkindness have really earned a lack of trust.
And then we also know leaders like Vince, a senior pastor of a small rural congregation in the mainline tradition, who shared that.
I know God has called me to this work and this church, but I honestly don’t know that our discipleship efforts in the last decade have made any tangible difference because people seem to be more divided than ever.
7:03
And so we, along with the team at the Fuller Youth Institute, have guided over 1000 local congregations through a comprehensive, often year long change process to become more vibrant and, and have a vital future.
And so we’ve gathered data along the way through congregational surveys and evaluations, as well as in depth interviews with 45 leaders from 23 of those congregations, which were then analyzed for the for certain themes and insights which made its way into the book.
7:32
And in some cases we’ve, you know, walked with these churches for over 10 years.
And so this book is the kind of the summation and the and the gold from all of that research.
Wow, that’s good.
Kara.
What?
What would you add?
Was anything left out?
7:49
Because boy, you covered a lot there, Ray.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ray, thank you for such a comprehensive summary of some of the most important research about young people and churches.
And I think Ray’s given us an accurate picture that there are a lot of struggles and, and Tasha, you said that at the beginning, but we are not with hope, without hope.
8:12
We are not without hope.
We are not.
Without.
No.
Yeah, that.
Was.
I hear what you put it down.
I hear what you put it down.
That was an accidental slip.
Freudian slip.
Yeah, exactly.
And I mean, here’s why.
We’re not without hope because of God.
8:31
Like in the midst of all the struggle, in the midst of pain, in the midst of loss that many are feeling right now, we serve and know a good and loving God who’s constantly redeeming and restoring.
So that’s what we try to do in this book is really be honest and empathize with the struggles we’re all feeling, but then also paint a more positive picture forward about how any church can change.
8:58
Right, that’s so good.
I I have been studying in school.
The the prophet said, you know, it’s like just think about the times where, you know, that they’re writing from times that were desolate and chaos and just sinful depravity, but still writing, you know, telling the truth.
9:18
Yeah.
But also with a sense of hope, you know, but God, and I think that’s where you’re coming from.
And this is like, hey, it’s the, it’s the grace of God right now that we are able to have research to identify this, to correct course or to help lead people into a better pathway.
9:40
So that’s something that’s hopeful because God has shown us basically what is broken.
Now, those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, may may you listen.
And I think that is something that’s, you know, astounding, especially like, well, I appreciate facts and research.
9:59
You know, I know a lot of people don’t, but I appreciate facts and research search.
I believe God is in the facts and the truth and, and, and within the research.
And so the book highlights 3 checkpoints that you think are essential to the future for churches.
10:18
What are they and why are they so important?
Yeah.
So we’ve already been talking about one of those checkpoints very specifically, and that is young people.
All three of these checkpoints, they reflect Scripture.
They are grounded in research, the facts, as you’ve said, and based on what we’ve seen in churches, they offer a lot of hope for changing and improving church culture.
10:42
We think of them really as tipping points that we can be aware of and leverage.
So First off, it’s relationally cycling young people.
Note that Ray and I didn’t say, you know, entertaining and offering great programs for young people.
10:59
It’s more about how are we really helping adults relationally invest in young people.
And the good news is young people are open to adult relationship.
Ray mentioned Springtide Research Institute.
They’ve had some interesting data come out in the last few years that shows that young people really are open to adult relationship when it’s an adult that they trust.
11:23
And so when churches mobilize adults to invest in young people, everything rises in a church.
There’s just special, special potential and power in churches when young people are mobilized.
So that’s the first one.
11:38
The second we know this is something that all three of us are passionate about and it’s such a theme of this podcast in your work, Tasha, and that is modeling Kingdom diversity.
God’s made us diverse people and wants us to live in community that.
11:54
Oh, you just said a bad word.
You just said a culturally bad word.
Break it down for the people.
Like, I mean, when you’re talking about the Word of God, when you’re talking about the Kingdom of God, you’re going to always talk about diversity, right?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I’ve really come appreciate how our Fuller president describes it as he loves the term David Goatly does vibrant variety.
12:20
And that is how God’s made us even just look at the three of us on camera.
Now in this conversation.
We are different genders, different races, different ethnicities, different ages.
I’m the oldest, I’m pretty sure.
And yet we experience community and that’s what we want churches to be is a community that reflects the diversity of the community where they live.
12:43
And for us, this is a, this is a good test for a church.
Like as I look at the ethnicity and gender social economics of the community, where our our physical building stays planted or where we meet, are we reflecting that community?
And that’s our invitation to churches.
13:00
And then the third touchpoint checkpoint, in addition to young people and diversity, it’s the way that we love our neighbors.
And of course, this is timeless in Scripture.
And we know from God’s word that that our love is such a powerful witness.
13:17
And especially this, this day and age when people expect churches to be against things, when we as Jesus followers can be really for people and for love and justice and hope and peace and love our neighbors, that’s a powerful message.
13:34
So the book can help a church that wants to make any kind of change, but we’re especially inviting churches to integrate young people more, to experience the full diversity that God intends, and then to love our neighbors.
Yeah.
13:50
And that’s such a welcoming, you know, component when you think about the early church.
The early church grew because of the love that they had for one another and the care that they were given.
It was a witness to the rest of the world.
It was a witness to those who were in other faiths, and it was the power that drew people in to the message of Jesus.
14:09
And I think that is something that we forget about.
Like when we think about the some of the stats that Ray talked about earlier is that when people don’t sense love, they don’t sense community, they don’t sense unity.
They sense, you know, division and divisiveness.
14:27
That’s not attractive, you know.
And so Scripture tells us we will be known by the love that we have for one another that’s drawing and compelling.
And children are not falling for the Okie doke.
They don’t sense that, you know, and so they’re not playing around.
14:42
So one of the things that I know when it comes to research and data and all of these things, especially when it comes to the church, sometimes those things, you know, I’m like, who did they interview?
You know, like what, you know, what sampling did we do?
14:59
And and that sampling has to come from a diverse community, you know, and so I would love Ray for maybe can you speak into that a little bit?
You know, where this is coming from.
This is not, you know, a lot of times we hear stuff like this and is, you know, we’re saying the church, but we’re not talking, you know, like, OK, are you talking about the white church, the global church, the American church, the Western church?
15:23
Like, you know, can you give us a little sense of what we’re what, where your research delves into a little bit?
Yeah, so there.
And Kara should speak into this as well.
But so we did sample a cross section of churches and so multiple churches are highlighted and featured even in the book.
15:43
And so geographically, ethnically, racially and denominationally.
And then one of the other things that we really wanted to look into was in addition to the research and the consistent themes that we saw over and over through the churches, you know, as we look at the Scripture, it was really hard to ignore what is plainly there.
16:06
I mean, to, to your point, you know, like culturally, it’s becoming less and less appealing to talk about issues of diversity, equity, inclusion and justice.
But the reality is if you look through Scripture, it’s it’s impossible to not see.
And so from Genesis to Revelation, you see the beauty of God’s creative diversity and the beautiful, the beauty of God’s peaceable and just Kingdom.
16:30
And, and we see this emphasis over and over on the Kingdom of God, which is diverse from every nation, tribe, people, group in tongue.
And how the Kingdom of God is, is, is, is perfectly just.
And so to, to lean in on these things is extremely important because the Bible says so.
16:52
And if we hold the word of God to be true and we stand with and on the word of God, then it’s something that we have to learn more heavily into.
Yeah.
So some of the research emerged out of the the broad cross section.
And I don’t know if Carrie, you want to speak into that as well to to further address some of the research that was done.
17:12
Well, you did a great job, Ray.
Well done.
I don’t have much to add, but Tasha, we’re always mindful of the most of our research tends to be focused in the US and so we pay close attention to US demographics and we try to have our research reflect US demographics.
17:33
So because again, just like I said with the church, the question is, are you reflecting your community?
If we’re doing a nationwide study, we want it to reflect the diversity of our community.
So that is always a goal of ours.
This sample skewed a little bit more toward white churches because much of it was people who had been through our research over the last decade and that skewed a little bit more toward white churches.
17:56
But we tried to correct for that based on follow up interviews that we did.
So So yeah, we do feel like churches of diverse size, ethnicities, denominations are all represented.
And in addition to the three checkpoints that we’ve been talking about, a lot of what the book does is walk a church through how do you make change for many churches, what needs to change?
18:21
That’s kind of tough, but how do you bring about change?
That’s the real tough question.
And so Jake Ray and I, we’ve mapped out a four zone map that we’ve seen churches use time and time again to lean into the vision God has for them for the future.
18:38
We’ve seen this progression really bear Kingdom fruit in churches, and we’re looking forward to more and more leaders and churches following the map that we outline.
Yeah.
And when you talk about that map a little bit, you know, talk about maybe some of the churches that are following that, what are they doing?
18:55
Because the how is one thing, especially in this day and age.
And like, I think, you know, a lot of times people need, I think that’s what gives people hope when they’re seeing so much division.
And but when you’re seeing this like I do feel like this, the growth for the church in this next faith is going to be the multi ethnic multicultural churches.
19:17
Yeah, yeah.
I, I think that is going to be the, the next, you know, continued wave of growth.
Where do you see that happening now with some of the churches that are looking at these checkpoints that you guys have laid out?
19:33
Well, we’re especially seeing it when churches walk through these 4 zones, which I’ll highlight real quickly.
So first is here and so that’s a current, a church’s current reality.
What is actually happening now?
And we help churches know, you know, what are the strengths and weaknesses?
19:51
What are the ways God’s already working in your church?
How do you appreciate that?
Then second is there, what’s the vision God has for you?
And we invite churches to work as a team.
It should be.
This should be a communal process to understand God’s vision to marinate in Scripture.
20:08
And to really get broad input so that you know you’re there or maybe God’s there for you.
So it’s here to there.
The third phase in the map is who?
Who are the people God’s called you to bring about change with?
Folks are probably listening or watching this podcast on their own, but you don’t make change in a church on your own.
20:30
You need a team.
And so we walk through how do you create a transformation team?
How do you really listen to everyone, including people who are resistant or even opposing the change that you want to see?
How can your listening actually bring them on board?
20:46
And then last is exactly what you said, Tasha.
It’s that big how question.
And we give all sorts of research backed tested by Church’s principles like begin with experiments.
Don’t make huge change, but make small experiments.
21:03
As you make those small experiments, how do you leverage those wins toward bigger change?
How do you navigate conflict which will inevitably occur?
And then how do you lead like Jesus in the midst of all four of these stages of the map?
21:18
So, so you know, we have seen Korean churches, immigrant churches, multi ethnic churches, even predominantly white churches make progress when they follow these four steps.
So that’s our top recommendation for especially busy leaders who have a sense of where God’s taking them but struggle to know how do we actually get there.
21:42
That’s good.
Like right now we look at, you know, some of the landscape of the church and of the body and we think about youth.
What are some of the things that our youth are saying right now?
You know, what are what are some of the things?
21:57
You know, I know there was just a study where I don’t have the, we could probably look it up and add it in.
But there was a recent study where youth, particularly white youth, have been leaving the church.
You know, I would want to know, I know from the African American perspective that wasn’t the case.
22:17
But within the last two years and we if we think about what has happened in the last two years, we’re now seeing, you know, African American youth on target with white youth and leaving the church.
Where does that stand like as it relates to Asian American youth, Ray, you know, as it relates.
22:37
So what are they saying about the church and why are they leaving?
Like I know for African American youth is they see hypocrisy.
They don’t see truth.
They’re saying that the what you would say, the characteristics that are described as as as God and within the church does not relate to them.
22:58
You know what what is happening, you know, as it relates to the youth, as it relates to Asian Americans, you know.
Yeah.
I mean, it’s great, Excite.
I mean, I think, you know, one of the things that we’re seeing is that everybody is somewhat losing and so every group is experiencing A decline.
23:13
And the question is, what are the areas in which there’s overlap in one of the areas in which there’s distinctiveness?
And so I think the hypocrisy piece across the board is a true kind of sentiment that young people are seeing.
And so they want to see action before they hear your words, or they want to know that your words are followed up with right action and consistent action because they just don’t know who to trust anymore.
23:36
And this goes to what Carol was saying earlier.
Why?
Why listening is so important and how, you know, listening creates space for people to actually voice their concerns and feel heard, but also to be able to contribute their ideas in real meaningful ways.
23:53
I will say, like, I just had lunch with a Korean American pastor and he’s he, he basically said, like, if we just get out of the way and allow young people to lead and spend all of our time building trust and just supporting their activity, you’ll see their faith become more vibrant.
24:14
And he’s in an interesting scenario where because the pipelines of youth leaders are drying up and English ministry leaders are drying up, he’s feeling a lot more freedom to experiment from his role, which normally would have been a lot a little bit more controlled in a very hierarchical setting.
24:33
And at the same time, he feels extremely alone because he doesn’t feel like a lot of others that are kind of in similar roles either have the opportunity to do that or are willing to do it because they feel like they have to fit everyone into an established box.
24:49
And so the question is how much of the box needs to be expanded or transformed or even blown up?
And I think that’s a big question that, you know, that that young people are asking in terms of like, what are the, what’s the extent of which we can really kind of take ownership over our own faith and our own faith community?
25:10
You specifically asking about the Asian American church are a big concern that I have is the decline of young people.
And then the the, the higher percentage of young people who are disaffiliating from from the Christian faith, which again cuts across all the different racial and ethnic groups.
25:27
But the reasons why are probably a little bit different across the the different communities.
I mean, you know, one of the things that we know is the, the within the African American community is this kind of the hyper spirituality around like the crystals and the use of sage and, and, and, and, and even the draw from the Hebrew Israelites with the Asian American community.
25:51
I think that a lot of Asian American youth have bought into this notion that their ultimate goal in life is either to succeed in this world.
And so the church, if it doesn’t help you succeed by going to a good school or going to and getting a good job, that gets impacted.
26:09
Or they’re pushing against that narrative because they don’t want to quote UN quote, become the model minority and explore the arts and feel like their churches have no space for them to explore that.
And their faith communities have no space to explore that further.
We’re not seeing a lot of faith conversations taking place within the household.
26:28
And so, you know, there are more compelling narratives to participate in outside of the home and outside of the church.
And then, you know, I mean, I feel like youth sports is affecting everybody and we love youth sports.
But I was just with a pastor talking to him.
26:44
He’s out of Colorado and he basically, I said that he’s telling his congregants and the parents that, you know, that they shouldn’t be surprised when that their kids who go to college have no interest in the church when they spent all of their time taking their kids, you know, to to the soccer games or the baseball games.
27:05
Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but in replacement of any sort of rhythmic a ritual of going to church each and every week together.
And so I mean, the reasons are complex, but you know, like every group kind of share certain things and then you know, there are nuances based on based on these community culture as well.
27:25
Yeah, I was.
I really think, you know this.
That’s so good.
And I know you don’t speak for the entire Asian community, so I know like your perspective, you know, as a Korean American, but you know, and there’s so many in the diaspora that we have like Chinese, Vietnamese that may look different in those contexts.
27:43
So I want to make sure that I address that.
But you know, a lot of my, you know, been in family ministry next Gen.
One of the things that I noticed and I still noticed today, even just this model of church that we have, it really needs to be deconstructed in a sense where, you know, you want kids to that are engaging in in community and church.
28:06
You like, you want them to have that peer attachment, but also that church family attachment.
And so like, I was just my godson, for instance, you know, he, there’s, you know, school, there’s band, there’s orchestra, there’s, you know, soccer, there’s all these other things.
28:27
And you know, his particular church, you know, they, you know, youth group, you know, they don’t meet on Sunday, you know, there and I which I like that, you know, where they’re engaging in, in service.
And but then I’m, I’m, I’m also wondering, OK, how, how is this being interpreted for them on their level and what processes are in place because he can’t make it out to a Wednesday night service homework.
28:54
You know, there’s so many competing things and, you know, parents who work, you know, that have jobs like where, you know, the mom and dad are working, you know what I’m saying?
Like in that context.
And there’s so many misses, you know, that I see in church culture that allows when that framework is not in place for other things to seep in that we’re seeing in our community, you know, other things to pull kids out.
29:23
And then you looking at the world and how they’re being discipled through social media, through TV and all of those things.
You know, so I, that is something that I feel like this contributing factor to what we’re seeing pull away from the church.
29:39
So I, you know, and I know this is some of the groundwork that you’re doing and bringing leaders together and brainstorming and dialogue in this.
And so, you know, this is something that is like also close to my heart in the sense where when we started be the bridge, I said, I just don’t didn’t want to have something for adults.
29:58
But how we bringing this generation alongside of us to to make sure that they understand racial literacy, that they understand what bridge building is that we are, you know, giving them a space to to utilize their voice.
30:16
And that’s the other thing that I’ve seen too, where kids want to be seen, They want to be heard, they want to be known.
Like they don’t want you coming in the room taking up all the space, right, They have a voice and there’s so much that we can learn from them, you know.
30:32
So how are y’all since in that too?
Oh, for sure.
And in fact, one of the one of my favorite stories in the book is about a church in the Pacific Northwest where when the senior pastor was hired, church was about 100 people and it was aging and shrinking as we’ve been discussing.
30:48
And so the interview committee basically told the senior pastor, hey, if we don’t start building relationships with young people and engaging young people, this church is going to die.
And when the senior pastor started the job, he realized that was the case.
And so whenever any young person made their way into church at an activity or worship service, whatever it was, he would make a beeline for them, meet them, get their name, get their phone number.
31:13
And it got to the point where, especially with young adults, he thought, you know, I want to start having young adults over for dinner.
And so he and his wife started inviting large groups of young adults over for dinner.
And eventually that became a Bible study.
And eventually that became a ministry.
But one of the real exciting turning points, which dovetails so well with what you just said is the senior pastor asked these, asked these young adults a wonderful question.
31:39
What would you like to see God do through you?
What would you like to see God do through you?
And my kids are 2422 and 18, and I love talking with them about that question.
What would you like to see God do through you?
31:54
And then once we get that answer from a young person, then it’s not just, OK, I’m going to pat you on the shoulders and let you be on your way.
But how do we create a church that supports young people in those dreams?
So if it’s a young person who wants to be really involved in racial justice, wonderful.
32:13
What can our church do?
What other ministries like the Bridge can we connect them to?
If it’s a young person who wants to be involved in making a difference with homelessness and a community, well, great.
How can we help them take the next step?
I mean, you’re so right.
That’s the future of the church.
32:29
I have far more hope in 16 and 26 year olds taking the church forward honestly than I do people my own age.
And that’s what we want to see happen in churches nationwide.
Yeah.
And I would just say to church leaders, you know, just across this country, you know, our children are, are watching and they’re looking for authenticity.
32:50
They’re also, they can’t believe what you say because they see what you do and they’re paying attention.
And I think that’s important.
How do you see now we’re in different parts of the world, Ray.
How do you see God working in your your, your city right now?
33:08
Yeah, I mean in in a lot of incredible ways.
I mean that that one church that I mentioned, you know, he’s in the Chicagoland and I’m encouraged because, you know, he’s modeling a new way forward for a lot of these smaller immigrant churches that are trying to figure out like, how do you survive?
33:26
And you don’t have to just survive.
You can actually become vibrant and thrive.
And a big part of that is by allowing young people to really help shape the current and future trajectory of the church community and essentially coming along that beside them and saying, Hey, we just want to support what you’re doing and then and then help deepen your discipleship in the process.
33:49
You know, we have kind of cross racial efforts across the city.
I mean, some of the work that you’ve highlighted and featured, you know, from us before, but those conversations and, and those efforts continue on.
34:04
There are gatherings of prayer, you know, every, every several months that take place throughout the entire city.
And so we, we get encouraged by that, but then we’re also seeing more ecumenical collaborations.
And a part of that’s because the work of 10 by 10 is that we can connect a Protestant evangelical Latino community with a Catholic Latino community and have them start collaborating, especially on issues of of social import and justice.
34:33
And so we say, hey, like you’re both serving in this neighborhood.
Let us connect you to and then see if something had come out of there.
Yeah, I’d love to see that connection happening.
And I think some of the strongest communities are churches that collaborate and connect, you know, and I God is using 10 by 10 as that connector.
34:52
I see that’s like one of the things that’s missing here in the Atlanta area that I saw a lot when I was in Austin, you know, where churches were working together to deal with literacy in the, you know, and partnering churches with title one schools, churches were working together to deals with to deal with houselessness, you know, in in the Austin area.
35:16
And you don’t see pastors were meeting together and collaborating and praying together and having lunch together.
I don’t see that as much, you know, in the community that I’m in now.
It’s happening, but it happens still in separate pockets.
35:31
But I love this thing with 10 by 10, you know that this being the bridge for, you know, when you’re talking about evangelical spaces and and and mainline spaces.
I think that’s a beautiful thing.
And that’s the part of the beautiful truth telling that you’re doing in 10 by 10 care what what is something that you’re reading or watching right now?
35:54
You know, just just as other people are listening, when people who are doing difficult work, hard work, people want to know like, what are you reading?
What are you watching?
Even if it has nothing to do with the work that you do right, That great.
That’s great.
36:10
Well, I’ll, I’ll share what I’m reading these days.
So the, the senior leadership team at the full Youth Institute, we’re reading Business Made Simple by Donald Miller, where he gives all sorts of really helpful paradigms and practices for leadership related to everything from team culture to marketing and sales.
36:31
So I’m working my way through that.
And then I’m also working my way through a book called Make Sense of Your Story by Adam Young, which is a much more personal book about the ways that we all have stories from our past.
36:46
We’ve all been affected by our past, the good and the bad, the pain and the potential.
And how do we really recognize that and come to terms with that and experience God’s freedom or healing in the midst of that?
37:02
So I and like those two books, they, that’s just my life, Tasha.
Like I love, I love leadership and management and theology, and I also love personal formation.
And so I’m always trying to weave those two things together.
So those are the two books I’m reading these days.
37:18
What about you, Ray?
Yeah, I’m actually reading a book called Our Unforming It just like 3 people mentioned it over the last month.
And so I just picked it up and finally came in and I, I cracked it open this week and it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, it’s essentially a de westernizing, decolonizing spiritual formation framework.
37:39
And I thought it was excellent, at least in terms of the introduction, how there is a difference between Western and Eastern spiritual formation being more linear or circular and so on and so forth.
And so I strongly recommend it.
By who?
She actually is a professor at Fuller too.
37:57
And so her name is Cindy Lee.
OK, and what’s the name of the book?
Say it again.
Our unforming.
Our unforming OK, well, thank you so much.
You know, right?
Just close out what is what is You know, what is your hope for the church?
38:15
I think the people that are persisting are my hope right now, the people that are staying in the game, staying in the fight, they have every reason to jump ship or abandoned the, the the mission, but they’re staying in because they’re connected to people.
38:33
They’re invested in, you know, in the, in the work of God and they’re finding ways to to make it through and not just make it through, but innovate new ways forward so that the rest of the church can learn.
So right now I’m hearing a lot of those stories, which is really encouraging.
38:49
Well, thank you both for the heavy lifting that you’re doing for the church.
This is not easy work, but it is beneficial work.
It’s rewarding.
You are being obedient to the voice of God.
39:05
And I, I thank you for leading well.
And so it’s so great to have you here on the Be the Bridge podcast, you know, for such a time as this.
So I’m so grateful.
These are the things right here.
Talking to people like you gives us hope where there’s so much happening.
39:22
Sometimes we can get inundated in our own world, in our own space, but knowing that God is moving, God is active, God is listening.
And so it’s so great to talk to you today.
So thank you so much for joining us on the Vita Bridge Podcast.
Thank you.
Thanks for having us, Tasha.
39:38
Yeah.
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