Episode 230 | Jamie Ivey

Jamie Ivey

Host & Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison
Senior Producer – Lauren C. Brown
Producer, Editor & Music By – Travon Potts
Transcriber – Sarah Connatser

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Podcast link: https://podlink.to/BeTheBridge Social handles/links: Instagram: @LatashaMorrison  Twitter: @LatashaMorrison

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LatashaMMorrison/  Official Hashtag: #bethebridge

About Jamie Ivey

Jamie Ivey is the creator and host of the popular podcast The Happy Hour with Jamie Ivey, a central gathering place for talking about life and Jesus. Jamie told the raw, redemptive story that brought her to this place in her debut book If You Only Knew. Now she’s telling the story that keeps her going and frames her God-empowering message to women today. Jamie and her husband, Aaron, make their home for six, plus guests—come anytime!—in Austin, Texas. Her new kids book, God Made You to Be You, comes out in October!

The full episode transcript is below.

Narrator  0:01  

You are listening to the Be the Bridge podcast with Latasha Morrison.

Latasha Morrison  0:06  

[Intro] How are you guys doing today? This is exciting!

Narrator  0:09  

Each week, Be the Bridge podcast tackles subjects related to race and culture with the goal of bringing understanding.

Latasha Morrison  0:16  

[Intro] …but I’m going to do it in the spirit of love.

Narrator  0:19  

We believe understanding can move us toward racial healing, racial equity, and racial unity. Latasha Morrison is the founder of Be the Bridge, which is an organization responding to racial brokenness and systemic injustice in our world. This podcast is an extension of our vision to make sure people are no longer conditioned by a racialized society but grounded in truth. If you have not hit the subscribe button, please do so now. Without further ado, let’s begin today’s podcast. Oh, and stick around for some important information at the end.

Latasha Morrison  0:54  

Okay, Be the Bridge family. It is an honor to have this next guest here. She’s been with me from the beginning of this journey of Be the Bridge. And some of you know her, some of you this is gonna be your first introduction to her. But I’ve been on her podcast I think about three times. This lady has always given me a platform, given me advice, and has journeyed along with me. So I am so honored to have my friend here with me today. And I want you to love her well as you listen. Miss Jamie Ivey of the Happy Hour Podcast.

Jamie Ivey  1:39  

Tasha, listen, I am like, I can’t believe I’m on the Be the Bridge podcast right now. This is so exciting. (laughter)

Latasha Morrison  1:46  

It’s crazy, right?

Jamie Ivey  1:48  

It’s so exciting. I love your podcast, I listen to it. And I love you. And I love the work. And I love Be the Bridge. So this is my honor.

Latasha Morrison  1:54  

Oh my goodness, I know. I am so grateful for you. And you know, I wanted to talk to you. You know, I was thinking Jamie and I’ve talked about so much. I’ve been on her podcast. But my audience have not, we haven’t had the opportunity to hear you. And we have a lot of the shared audience. You know, I get a lot of people that are part of Be the Bridge to say, “I heard you first on the Jamie Ivey show.” And I’m like good gracious that Jamie Ivey show is everywhere. (laughter) But since when we first met in 2014, when we started these circles of conversation, it wasn’t called Be the Bridge then. It was just reconciliation circles. It was just friends in the community coming together from these different spaces to say, “Okay, there’s some brokenness here, and we don’t really know what to do about it. But we want to talk about it.” And at that time, you had just started your podcast.

Jamie Ivey  2:57  

That year. 2014. Isn’t that crazy?

Latasha Morrison  3:00  

We were just getting started. And we didn’t talk about anything. You remember, we didn’t talk about anything that any of us did personally. And really, until the end that, you know, we kind of discovered, “Oh, this person owns a jewelry company, or this person does this.” Some of you knew each other. But I was so new to Austin, I had never even heard of anyone in the group, including Jennie.

Jamie Ivey  3:25  

Including Jennie Allen. (laughter)

Latasha Morrison  3:26  

Including Jennie Allen. But you’ve added a few books to your bio recently. So you’re not just Jamie Ivey the Happy Hour host. You have added not just one book, not just two books, but three books. First of all, how in the world do you have the time to do all this?

Jamie Ivey  3:54  

I don’t know. But I mean, good team. You know, you’re doing all the things too, Tasha. But yeah, three books since we met. I mean, if I can just say, let me just get it out in the open right now. And then get going. That Be the Bridge group that we had, the racial reconciliation group that we met at the African American Heritage Center, wasn’t that what it was called?

Latasha Morrison  4:16  

Uh huh, uh huh.

Jamie Ivey  4:17  

Right there on the east side? I can say without a shadow of a doubt that that was a life changing thing for me. Meeting you, being a part of that experience. Like my mind was blown all the time. And I’m telling you, it has changed the trajectory of things in my life. So thank you. I’ve told you that privately. I’m gonna say it publicly. Thank you.

Latasha Morrison  4:43  

Wow, that’s great. And you know what, just because a lot of people in our audience, some of them have heard of you, some haven’t. Tell the audience a little bit about yourself. You just told them how we met. We already kind of did that. But how did you end up in that group?

Jamie Ivey  5:03  

Yeah. I guess God just plucked me up and put me in there because I am so grateful for that. But I have been married for 20 years, my husband’s a pastor here in Austin. I had just started my podcast that year, which is so crazy. So everything I’m doing now was not happening then. There were no books, there was no office, there was no fancy microphone, it was just me in a closet talking to people. But my family is diverse in that we have four children, and one is biological, and three joined our family through adoption. And so two of my kids were born in Haiti. And so they’re Haitian American. And then one of my kids was a domestic adoption. So he was born here in Texas and his first mom, his birth, mom is white and his birth dad’s Black. So we have this diverse family that sets us apart a little bit, in a lot of ways. And so coming into that group, that was what I was bringing to the table was a white woman raising Black and white children.

Latasha Morrison  6:02  

Wow. Yeah. And I think that was the common thread for a lot of people there.

Jamie Ivey  6:10  

Yeah, yeah. And you know, it’s like, in 2014, I’m gonna mess up my years. And hopefully you can edit this to make me look smarter than I am. But what had we experienced, what had we gone through in our country then that was this kind of big moment of outrage? Do you remember? Can you think?

Latasha Morrison  6:34  

Yeah we had, Tamir Rice had happened. Excuse me, not Tamir Rice. The first one was Trayvon Martin.

Jamie Ivey  6:44  

Trayvon. Okay, so that’s a good thing right there. So when we started that group, we had seen as a country, Trayvon Martin. And I mean, I’m pretty open and vocal about what I’ve learned and where I’ve come. And I think that I can get some pushback for that for having, you know, eyes closed previous to that. But I’m just by the grace of, look, we’re all learning. And we’re all in progress. So praise God for where we are. But that was a moment for me. And I think it was a moment for a lot of white people. And I think it was really a moment for a lot of white people who might be, you know, raising or married to Black people. And so, that had happened before we joined the group. And so that was fresh. And here I was as a mama raising Black children. And I was just like, “I don’t even know what’s happening.” And so that group was such a Godsend for me.

Latasha Morrison  7:30  

Yeah. And you could be honest in that group. And I think for me, even for a lot of Black people, we were raised by parents that were born in the 50s and 60s, where there was this whole approach by our society of being color blind. So a lot of our grandparents who participated in the Civil Rights Movement, because of trauma didn’t talk about a lot of things with their kids in that way. And that’s my personal story. I know that’s not everyone’s story. So I was the first one born with a full set of rights where I could go to school where I wanted, where there were, it was illegal to redline. So I’m the first one, think about that. I was the first one to be born with a full set of rights. And if you think about that, Trayvon, for me, and although I had done this work in Black spaces a lot throughout college, this was the first time me cross pollinating into white space, to say, “Okay, I’m tired of talking to the choir, I need to talk to some other folks on the other side of this conversation, because I need you involved in it.” And I think Trayvon Martin was the catalyst for me also to step out of the Black space conversations into this, I want to say almost pit of white space conversation. So not only was that for you, I was even surprised at the injustice in the thought process and the lens and the perspectives of people. You know, this was a 17 year old kid that had the right to take up space that was denied that right because of the color of his skin, and how people interpretted that to me, where you saw, you know, racial biases on display, racism on display. And it was just shocking to me and that propelled me into these conversations. So we both were coming in, so this was the first time that I had started engaging in these conversations face to face with white people on a larger scale.

Jamie Ivey  9:56  

Wow.

Latasha Morrison  9:28  

Besides the one on one. So we both were coming to this with a lot. So you see God, but it was. It was such a God thing. It was a God thing. And I’m so grateful for you. I’m grateful for how God has used this to bring out even the writer in you, you know, with all your books, and we can talk about that at the end and point people to that. But I wanted to just dive in. We can dive in, we’re friends. And you can tell me, “Tasha I ain’t touching that!” But you started on this journey toward racial righteousness with me almost seven years ago, it’s been seven years. You know, how do you feel like you’ve grown? You mentioned a little bit before, but I want you to get a little more specific, because I know this will help people. How have you grown since that first discussion? Because I’ve seen growth in you and everybody’s growth is different. And this is the thing I tell people, I can work with people who are moving forward, but people who are complacent and stagnant and just want to talk about it, but they don’t want to do anything about it or they don’t want to change, I don’t have the patience for that. I need movers, you know. And so tell me a little bit about Jamie in 2014 and Jamie in 2021.

Jamie Ivey  10:57  

I can think that one of the most major things that’s happened in my life, and yours, too. We’re sitting here like seven years ago, wow, both of our lives have changed so much in seven years. But within those seven years, my platform has grown and so the places that my voice can carry has changed a lot. And so I think that when I started on this journey of understanding more of how our country was founded, and the the truths of things, and what it’s like to be Brown and Black and America today and 10 years ago, and I started to kind of wrap my head around these things, I started to realize that I have this opportunity to bring people’s voices to more people. And so one of the things that has really been important for me is to think through what voices can I elevate because of the people who are listening to me? And so that’s one thing professionally that has happened is I’ve really had to look and say like, “Hey, who can we elevate with voices?” Because I think I told you this, probably four or five years ago, I looked at my podcast list. And I was like, wow, it’s a bunch of white women in their 40s writing books. And this is not okay. And so we became more diligent with our yeses and our asks. On a personal level, I have grown so much in sympathy. I have grown so much in listening. I’ve grown so much in wanting to become a learner, not for knowledge, but I think for like, understanding. I told you, we have Black children in our home. And so that has changed the way we parent, it’s changed the conversations in our house. And so I think my brain and my eyes and my heart have been opened wider than I ever imagined they could have been. And that’s taken work. And I’ve taken heat for it in some ways, you know, and so I think that’s a lot of the ways that I’ve grown professionally and personally over these last seven years within this conversation.

Latasha Morrison  13:38  

Yeah, we’ll definitely talk about the heat a little bit later. But how old are your kids now? And what I would say is, I want you to say: “I’ve grown in empathy.” Repeat that. Say, “I’ve grown in empathy.”

Jamie Ivey  13:57  

But I don’t know that I can have empathy because I don’t know what it’s like to be Black.

Latasha Morrison  14:02  

You don’t?

Jamie Ivey  14:03  

I’m not Black.

Latasha Morrison  14:05  

Yeah, that’s true. Okay.

Jamie Ivey  14:08  

I was gonna say empathy. But is it empathy when you understand? Like I feel the same feelings?

Latasha Morrison  14:17  

Well, I think you know what? You can relate to the feelings of a Black mother because you have Black children.

Jamie Ivey  14:25  

Yes.

Latasha Morrison  14:26  

You don’t feel it, you may not feel it the same, but you love your kids in the same manner. So you do have empathy.

Jamie Ivey  14:36  

Well, that’s kind of you. I was trying to choose my words really carefully, because I don’t want a Black woman to say, “You don’t know what it’s like to be a Black woman.” And I’m like, “I know, I don’t.” But I do know what it’s like to raise Black children on maybe the same level? I don’t know. I don’t know.

Latasha Morrison  14:51  

Yeah. I think you have empathy because you don’t have…I don’t have the same experience of someone who is raising children because I don’t have children. But I can have empathy with my best friend who is navigating this young adult life, these teenager, this teenage life, navigating a divorce that you know, although it’s not my story, I can have empathy with her. And empathy is the difference of sitting in it with someone. Sympathy is when I’m a bystander but I’m not sitting in it with you. And I would say you’re sitting in with this. Yeah.

Jamie Ivey  15:37  

Well I’ll take your definition any day. If that’s the definition, I’ll go with it. 

Latasha Morrison  15:39  

And if anybody comes, just come for me, come for me. And I think this is actually a really good conversation. Because this is kind of, this is what we do, right? This is what we do. Y’all know, I’ll text you and say those things. And it’s not to say I’m not, you know, I’m on this journey, too. But I feel that you’re sitting with us in this. You’re not a bystander in this. And I think sympathy…when you send a sympathy card, it’s like, to me you’re a bystander, you’re speaking into that emotion right then and you kind of move on. Empathy is you don’t move on, that you’re going to do more than send a card, that you’re going to send a card, you’re going to send a text, you’re going to get on the phone, you’re going to send flowers. You know what I’m saying? You’re going to do more. And I feel like you’re doing more than just sending a card.

Jamie Ivey  16:39  

Well, thank you for that. I think so too. But I also, I always want to not, I also want to value the experience of a Black person.

Latasha Morrison  16:52  

Yes. And I appreciate that.

Jamie Ivey  16:55  

Thank you. And so I have sympathy and empathy. I’ll go with Tasha’s statement. Because I’ll tell you what, and this is like, some people can get upset about this as well. But I’m being just honest about my journey, is it’s not my children’s responsibility to open my eyes up to racial injustice in our country. I can’t put that on them. That’s not fair.

Latasha Morrison  17:16  

Oh, say it again, Jamie!

Jamie Ivey  17:18  

That’s not fair. But I also have to be honest with my situation, and say that becoming a mom to Black children changed the way I view things in our country. And so on one hand, it’s not their job or their responsibility. On the other hand, it’s our current reality is that these are my babies. And so parenting them has changed me. And it has changed our family for the better, and it has made me see and understand things, that if I wasn’t parenting them I might not have. But also I like to follow up with this too. And I know that not everyone listened to your podcast is a Christian, but that is my faith. And as a Christian, I also am deeply convicted with the way that my children have affected the way I see things. And as a Christian, we think all of us are in one big family. And so when my family is hurting, i.e. my kids, it changes me. But Tasha, you’re also of the same faith as me as a Christian. When you’re hurting, you’re my sister, it should hurt me the same way it hurts when my children that live in my home are hurting. And so I think that’s been very challenging for me, is repenting of the way that it didn’t hurt me before, moving forward, and encouraging my other brothers and sisters who are white like me to also hurt when our brothers and sisters who look different than us also hurt. Does that make sense?

Latasha Morrison  18:51  

Yes, because you’re, I mean, that’s scripture. You are mourning with those that mourn. And I think you are up close and personal because of your family. But Jamie, like there’s so many people who are raising kids like you, but still continuing to ignore these issues and ignore and play down their kids experiences. I hear these stories every day where kids are in private school having to play slave. And who are the slaves? The little only four little black kids in the class. Or having to write about their ethnic story when their ethnic story is different through adoption and their ethnic story is different as an African American – it’s not as a Black American, but as an African American, where your story is through the Atlantic slave trade. So if you don’t understand those things as a parent that’s raising children your kid could have a real major identity crisis later on, especially in their teen years. And so you leaning into this conversation is honestly not the norm for a lot of people.

Jamie Ivey  20:13  

That’s sad. And, I want to say this as well. I remember there was a MLK parade that I was marching at, and I think you were there. And there were people who were chanting, “I am Mike Brown, I am Trayvon Martin.” And one of my kids who was young at the time, it would have been probably six or seven years, looked up at me and said, “Who is that?” And I remember in that moment, I could almost cry because as a mom I wanted to protect my son. And so I didn’t want to tell him about it. Because I thought, if I don’t tell him, then he doesn’t know the evils in this world. And I had this moment of, I don’t know what to do. And I don’t know what I did. Hopefully, I told him, I have no idea. But soon after that, I read an article by a young Black man who was raised by white parents and went off to college. And for the first time, his eyes were opened up to some of the injustices in our country, because his parents had done that, that I wanted to do. They had shielded him, they had not told him. They had really, I guess, in a way hoped that their privilege as being white Americans would rub off on, would help him. You know? And I read that article. And I knew from that point forward, that I had to be honest with my kids, because it was detrimental to them to not. And so, I mean, parenting is hard. I talk to people all the time about this thing. But I’m also talking to parents about like, you got to teach your kids about sex or else the world will. And so parenting is hard. And so we have to teach our kids these things. Because they deserve to know. And if you’re raising a Black child and you’re white, also their experience in life is going to be 100% different than yours. And you want your child to feel like they can tell you and that you are an advocate for them.

Latasha Morrison  22:10  

Yeah, I love that Jamie. And I love, and the fact that I remember you telling me that story as as a part of your change. And I know you’ve been on this learning journey, you know, since then. And you know what I love to tell people, it’s not always what people do in front, but it’s also what they’re doing behind the curtain. And I love what you’re also doing behind the curtain, too. And I’m just so happy about that, and that you’re having these conversations. Because at that time, your son was probably about six, but tell the ages of your children now. So it’s a different story now that they’re like middle school, high school versus elementary. What ages are your children now?

Jamie Ivey  22:53  

So my oldest is our only biological and he is 17. He’ll be a senior next year. And then I have two boys who are 15 and 16. And they’re going to be sophomores in high school. And then my daughter is 13. And she’s going to be in eighth grade. So we do have these big kids and those challenge. It’s no longer, “Oh, I don’t want to tell them.” It’s like I have to prepare for what will happen. So yeah.

Latasha Morrison  23:14  

Yeah, yeah. And I know, there’s been a whole journey. And it’s gonna make your kids really understand their identity and their place more when you have these conversations. I learned this. I forget…It was this man who did college ministry, and they were talking about there’s three things when you’re parenting, and I tell this being in next gen ministry for so long and doing children’s ministry, I will tell my parents, you know, either you don’t want to saturate because society will have you saturate your kids with the world system. So you don’t want to saturate. You can’t isolate though. Because what we want to do is like, “I don’t want my kids exposed to all this, I want to protect them. I don’t want them…” You know, I heard this one woman who was white raising Black kids say, “I want to protect them from Black people. I don’t want them to become like Black people.” You will not believe some of the things that people say in this and how wrong that is because those kids are Black. And when the world looks at them, the world that is infused with systemic racism, we live in a racialized society; we are divided by race; race is a social political construct. God created ethnicity, but not the race and how we interpret it here in America. Because you go to other places, and it doesn’t exist like that. It just has another name, you know, but some of the same issues. So we live in a racialized society. And so you can’t say something like that. So you don’t want to saturate, you don’t want to isolate. But what you have to do is you have to interpret the world that they live in and around them. And I think that’s what you’re doing, you’re trying to interpret, you know, the things that are happening, and trying to give them language. And you’re trying to give them history and context, so that they understand, so that they can move forward not in naivety, because that could really be dangerous for them. But they don’t have to live in fear. Because you also are grounding them in the gospel and you’re not making everyone their enemy. But you’re interpreting the world  in which they live and giving them the tools that they need to navigate in those spaces. And I think even as a Black parent that’s what you have to do. Because some of these things are beyond your control. You don’t know who will stop your son, you know, if it’s on a dark night and the lights are out in the back, the tail light. Make sure those tail lights and make sure they have their registration. I don’t sleep on that stuff, let me tell you. I don’t play with that stuff. I’m not giving anyone an excuse. But you can end up with the nicest person. Or you could end up with a person that is power hungry, and they misuse their power. So you know, so you just don’t know. So you’re prepare them for the unknowns. But you’re interpreting the world around them. And you’re not doing it in a way that’s going to instill fear. But you’re trying to protect them, you know, and I think there’s a difference when it comes to that. So I know you’ve had to have these conversations with your kids. What has been the hardest thing to change about yourself?

Jamie Ivey  26:52  

I think the hardest thing and what makes me the saddest is that I still see bias come up in me. And it feels sad, because it feels embarrassing. It feels like and this makes me want to cry because it feels like, “Jamie, you you’re learning. You’re investing. You’re empathetic. You’re sitting. You’re raising Black kids. Like how could you still have that pop into your head?” And I could, like, beat myself up over it. But what I’m trying to do, is say there it is, there it is that was it, call it out, like name it. Say why it’s wrong, and do better. Go the other way, like change. Replace it with something else. And so I think that makes me super sad. Because I feel like a failure. I feel like I don’t care. Like I feel like I’m not on the same team. It just, it’s hard. But I think the growth that I see in myself is that it produces a response of sorrow in me. And that I want to do better. And then it also reminds me like man, I had years of experiencing the same bias and didn’t give a flying flip about them and didn’t even know they were biased. Just thought it was normal life. And so I think that is something that maybe a lot of white people on this journey would understand is that this feeling of, “Man, I’m so upset about that.” And I don’t want to share the particular story. But I called you one time after an experience that I had had, and I was so unbelievably ashamed of myself, and what I had done and thought. And I called you and I think you didn’t answer and I think I left you this long sobbing message. And to me, it felt almost like I needed to apologize to you. Because we had been on this journey together. And so I think that’s what’s hard sometimes is when those things still pop up, and you go, “Really? Like what?” And so that’s what’s hard.

Latasha Morrison  29:36  

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, Jamie. Thank you for being honest about that. I think that’s gonna help a lot of people. And I think as a friend that’s in this space with you at some times when, like, I remember that call, and I wanted you to sit in that. Because I wanted to see what was God going to speak to you about that? Because sometimes, you know, I don’t have the words to fix that. This is your journey, your journey is a separate journey from me. But I knew that you were going to be okay, because you confessed it. And you had lament about it. And I knew God was gonna do the rest. And it’s a continued work, like I told you, this is a lifestyle. This is not a marathon, you know? I mean, excuse me, this is not a sprint. It’s a lifestyle, which is like a marathon. But it’s longer than a marathon. Yeah. A marathon is only 26 miles, this thing is longer than that. And so you’re going to have these, but it’s like, how do we allow God to come and fix those broken places? This work is spiritual work. This is discipleship. This is spiritual formation that we’re going through. And how does the word of God apply to what you’re feeling right now in that bias? And we see scripture from the New Testament to the, from the Old Testament to the New Testament of people who are dealing with some similar things in different ways if we have the lens to see what God has said about the marginalized, especially Jesus. And we see this in Peter, you know what I’m saying, we see this in Paul. And so, I think it’s good to lean into that space. And I think out of all of that, thank you for leaning into that, and not stuffing it, and pretending it doesn’t exist. Because sometimes we can try to put on these fronts, like, everything is okay, I’m not dealing with this. And we can continue to hurt people of color when we’re in spaces with them. Because we’re not dealing with our mess. But when we name our mess and realize I haven’t arrived. Not to make an excuse, but to say I am a work in progress. And I think that’s what we say about our salvation. We are becoming new, we are becoming new.

Jamie Ivey  32:16  

We do that in other areas of our life. Like if I’m struggling with, you know, thinking bad thoughts about my body, then I need to confess that and I’m going to keep moving forward. And I think one thing just to say, like, kudos to what you guys are doing with Be the Bridge is, the reason I could call you is not because you were like this one Black person that I met one day. It’s because we had that safe, shared space. And I felt super safe saying that to you. And so entering into those spaces that are safe, is where you go, “I can confess this out loud.” And everyone knows we’re on this, you know, longer than a marathon journey lifestyle growing together. And so that’s what you guys are doing so well. And that’s what you had done for that group is I knew Tasha is going to let me say this, and she’s going to help me and correct me and point me, but I also I didn’t feel like you were going to be shameful towards me.

Latasha Morrison  33:05  

Yeah, yeah. So that’s really that space of courage. But I on the other end of that, I knew you guys were gonna have enough vulnerability and humility to receive. Because there’s a lot of people who are showing up into these spaces, but they haven’t done that work of humility and listening. And so you have to be teachable. And if you’re not teachable, that is exhausting to a person of color. It’s exhausting. And so, you know, this work is about convictions and I think we just talked about that. At the end of the day, this work is about conviction. I can have conversations with people where they want to do the right thing, either, especially pastors, they want to do the right thing for their church, because of optics versus it being a true conviction for them. And that true conviction, that comes through heart transformation. And that’s what the Lord does. And so we cannot do this work apart from God. And I think those that are tuned into that, and doing this work, through the message of Jesus, I think that is the things that sustains us. Because I’m convicted about this, so it doesn’t matter. So that means that winds and waves are going to come and toss. People are going to change. People are going to leave you. People are going to talk down about you. But when you’re convicted about something at the end of the day that keeps us pushing and committed to change. What is something that convicts you? And you just mentioned it a little bit. But what is something that convicts you that keeps you going and pushing, even when you lose followers, even when you are facing challenges? What is something that keeps you rather than…I remember you saying this, you realized this, you said, “I can wake up and not even in my own self, not think about this.” And I think that was easier probably when your kids were younger. But now that your kids are older, that’s probably a lot harder. But I remember you saying that, and you said, “I have to make a conscious effort to make sure that I care.” But I think you’ve moved from caring. to conviction, and that’s different. 

Jamie Ivey  35:30  

Yeah. It is different. And what I mean when I say that is that for most, and I don’t want to generalize, because there obviously might be a handful of different scenarios, but for most white people in America we literally could go our entire life and these things not affect us. And so, for me, obviously, we’ve talked about my children and how that’s changed my life. But for me, I have to have the conviction that because it’s not going to personally affect me, you know, my family, my kids, yes. But if I just look at Jamie Ivey, I have to have the conviction that it matters, even if I never experience it. And I think that’s where a lot of people who are doing this work with you that are white, like me, have come to realize that it does matter, even if it doesn’t personally affect you for a lot of reasons. Number one, like I mentioned before, if you’re Christian, it does affect you, this is our family. These are people made in the image of God. Everybody is made in the image of God. Everybody has value. That should convict us. End of story. Done. But then also like we can look at our country and it is it is not thriving in so many ways. And so that should matter to us as well. One of the newer things in my journey over the past couple of years has been talking about and caring about and concern and learning about asylum seekers and migrants at…I live in Texas at the Texas Mexico border, what’s happening. And so that’s been another kind of convicting thing of like, now that doesn’t affect me. I don’t have children who were born in South America or Mexico or Spain and have you know brought, I don’t have, that’s not my journey. But it has become to really matter to me. And so I think that is the conviction is like, how do we make this matter to us, even if it doesn’t personally affect our home that we live in under our four walls? Because it affects our communities, you know. It affects our leadership. It affects our schools. It affects our churches. It affects everything really. And so bringing that conviction in has been good for me in lots of ways. And it helps me stay in the fight and care.

Tandria Potts  37:54  

[Voiceover] This is so good. Aren’t you loving this conversation? We’re gonna take a quick break. Stay with us. We’ll be right back.

Latasha Morrison  38:04  

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Tandria Potts  38:17  

[Voiceover] Thanks for staying with us. Let’s get back to our conversation.

Latasha Morrison  39:49  

I care about human trafficking. You know, I did 10 years. But when I looked at some of the intersections is that the people that it was impacting even the most were those at the crossroads of vulnerabilities that make them more susceptible to human trafficking. And a lot of time there’s a race thread in that. 

Jamie Ivey  40:17  

There’s all kinds of threads. Yes.

Latasha Morrison  40:21  

Those that are the most marginalized in our society fall victim to a lot of the injustice.

Jamie Ivey  40:28  

It comes from foster care. It comes from medical procedures…not procedures, but insurance. And government, housing and all of it.

Latasha Morrison  40:38  

Everything. It impacts everything. And so even at the border, the border crisis, we see this playing out 20 years from now on what’s going to happen. And then people will get, you know, we have short term memory in America where we get amnesia on the trauma that we’ve caused and the mess that we’ve made. And then we try to act like, oh, what’s wrong with you? When we’ve created these systems of impoverishment. You know, all the things. I think about redlining and how we’re living out that legacy, and still living out that legacy today as things that were done 50 to 70 years ago, which is not that long ago. I am the first one…my parents, or my dad was 68 when he passed, my mom is 68, and they were children of the 50s. I was born in the 70s. And I’m the first one to be born with a full set of rights. But then all the things. When we look at Just Mercy, that movie, all of that happened in the 90s and early 2000s.

Jamie Ivey  41:51  

Don’t forget this guys. Yeah. 

Latasha Morrison  41:52  

That that Sheriff was empowered into 2019. And we want to think that systemic racism doesn’t exist? Yeah. So anyway, it’s a lot.

Jamie Ivey  42:05  

And with the convictions, too, Tasha, I’ll tell you that, you know what I’m saying, you understand this at even different level than me, but for me, when I talk about these things, I always get pushback. I always lose people. There was recent article in The Washington Post about our family, and I had events cancel me. I mean, I talk about the border and people get all up in arms. I talk about Black lives matter and all of a sudden, you know, “Well who are you?” And so I think like if you’re entering into these spaces in this work to be prepared for the pushback was something I did not know or understand was going to be coming my way. Which I look and I’m like, oh Civil Rights Movement, Black people for centuries have been dealing with this pushback forever. And I’m new to this space of getting the pushback. But feeling like it matters. And I’ll say it again, and louder if I lose every booking ever again at a certain church. I don’t care.

Latasha Morrison  43:01  

Yeah, I’m telling you. And I love that. And that is conviction. Because this is the thing, I say this all the time, like, I love Be the Bridge. I love this ministry that God has gifted me with to come along in the work that God is doing. This is not my work. I hold Be the Bridge, I hold it with open hands. This is not my work. This is God’s work. And that’s what sustains me. But let me tell you, before I keep my mouth shut to be comfortable and to keep speaking engagements and to keep people comfortable, let me tell you, I’d rather it burn to the ground, to be honest. Because that’s when this work when you’re convicted that this is about the kingdom of God. You know? And this is about being a credible witness for the glory of God. And that’s the thing that sustains me. So, you know, waves are going to come. And I will get the job at Sephora. (laughter) Whether I’m in this position with Be the Bridge or not, I am still the leader, I am still a bridge builder, and I am still the change agent. That is who God has created me to be whether I have this platform or not. And so, that’s the thing right there that drives me. Money drives people, you got to have money to operate and I get it. Like Be the Bridge, I have a staff, you know what I’m saying? So I want to use wisdom, but I’m not going to live in fear. You know? And so, yeah. And this is the thing, this is for the greater good. I care about my brothers and sisters in Christ. I care about the Church, the local church. I started Be the Bridge because of the local church. So I want to see the Church whole and well. And when we get it, the world gets it. If we understand the flourishing of image bearers, the world gets. We can see how the world has followed after the battles of the Church in a lot of good ways and then in a lot of unhealthy ways. And we’re seeing that play out right now, even with the whole critical race theory stuff. So anyway. So we’re excavating and we’re rebuilding as it relates to our belief systems related to racial brokenness. But listen, before we get into, because I have a question that I really want to ask you about. Sometimes we don’t dream about what does racial righteousness, to me righteousness and justice go hand in hand, you cannot have reconciliation without righteousness and justice. And so. So what does that look like to you? Like if we were to dream and there was racial righteousness where justice has been done, repair has been done, restoration has been done. What does that look like for your sons? Your daughter?

Jamie Ivey  46:19  

That’s a hard question. It’s hard because it feels impossible. I mean, to be honest, it feels almost unimaginable. Because I was thinking when you said it, I was like, well, I feel like we need a few generations to get the bad out. I mean, you know what I mean, like even saying that sheriff was still in power till 2019, we need three generations after him to cleanse. You know what I mean? Because that’s what I’ve learned as well, this is generational. And so what I know is what my parents taught and said in our home, and what they know was what their parents said and taught in there. We’re just going back down the line. And I hope I’m doing better. And my parents did better. All the things. It’s like this generational, we need a generational cleanse. And it feels impossible. And it feels unimaginable. And I know that’s a really bad answer.

Latasha Morrison  47:16  

No, that’s, that’s, I think that’s the honest answer. Because I think that’s where for me, but hope comes in at some point. Because hope is the driver in this. Yeah. And I think about those before me, they had to have hope to continue.

Jamie Ivey  47:36  

For sure.

Latasha Morrison  47:36  

I think about Harriet Tubman. So, what did they see?

Jamie Ivey  47:40  

Right. And I think what I think when I think about that is like you said, this is like a personal what happens behind closed doors matters. And I think that that’s to encourage people and what feels impossible. And what feels, you know, unimaginable is that you get to change your home, and you get to change your next generation. And so we can see a ripple effect of that. You keep saying this is discipleship, and it is discipleship, and discipleship means we’re changing people’s lives with the gospel. And so we get to impact a generation below us. And I think that’s where we do see this change is like, every home is different than the home before. Every church is making decisions differently than they have in the past. Every community group is saying, hey, we value things that we haven’t valued before. And so those small changes, eventually would create change within communities and homes and churches. And I think we would then see a ripple effect. So I pull back my answer of impossible, because I think things are possible. But maybe just real hard. But worth it.

Latasha Morrison  48:42  

They’re real hard, and they do take generations. But you take it one step at a time, one person at a time, one generation at a time, one system at a time, one policy at a time. And we can’t robot back those policies, those advances that we’ve gained. And I think of this, when you know, I think about this country thought at one point they were so entangled in the Atlantic slave trade that there was no way to unravel all of that centuries of injustice and oppression and dehumanization. But a few people, not all, not the majority, thought that we could. And so I hold on to that. And I hold on to my ancestors before me that hoped for a better future. And so I tried to imagine. I ask this question because I think it’s good for us to try to imagine so that we have hope in the work that we’re doing because to me that also fuels our conviction. And it fuels us when things get hard and when things come our way to keep going. People were jailed, and they kept going. People lost their life. But maybe relatives kept going. Harriet Tubman returned to the south, again and again, being led by God. They called her Moses. And she kept going and then defended this, participated in defended this country’s truth of liberty and justice for all through the Civil War by being a general. Like I think about her story, that’s not, when when I read her stories, sometimes I’m like, “This make believe. That can’t be possible.” She survived and lived until 1911. My grandmother was born, my great grandmother was born in 1910. She lived on this earth at the same time that Harriet Tubman lived on this. My great grandmother died in 1998. This is recent history. And so I am so grateful for this conversation. And I remember this conversation that you and I had. One of the things that wasn’t in my last book, I’d done a lot of work on Native American boarding schools. And that wasn’t included in the last book that I did. And I would love to talk to you. I know, this is something you haven’t talked about publicly, and I want it to be mindful. But I know it’s something we’ve talked about. You know, because sometimes I look at you and I remember, we were at, this is a funny story. We were at this IF:gathering dinner. And one of my friends had come and you know, it’s like, a lot of white women. And you know, it’s like I travel with the entourage sometimes. But it was like one of my friends came and she was like, she looked at you, as she said, “What is she?” Cause my friend is biracial. Her mother is white, and her mother was adopted so we believe there’s some other things there. And then her father was African American, and she was actually raised by her father. And she looked at you and she said, “What is she?” I was, “What are you talking about? She’s white.” (laughter) “Oh, Jamie just came back from vacation. She’s just all tan.” But I remember telling you that, because you said I think my Native heritage comes out. But you hear people say that all the time. You talk to an African American person it’s like, “Oh, my hair is like this, because, you know, they told us we have Native in it.” But when you do the DNA it’s like, no, that was white. So you hear that. And I didn’t take that as serious, but we talked about that. And you talked to me about your grandfather. And that is from your grandfather was Native, and he was adopted. And I wanted you to, if you feel comfortable, you know how comfortable…because you were very adamant, like, I don’t want this, I’m stepping into this, because you were raised a certain way. You were raised as a white woman. And you didn’t really know anything about your Indigenous ancestry and heritage. And I want you to talk about that, because you actually are registered. And I just, I would be honored for you just to share whatever you feel like sharing. And I know this is your first time, you let me know if you don’t want to share anymore. But that was just something that was intriguing to me. And that has been one of my prayers for you is that God would reveal your ethnic story even more, because that is something that he has given you. Like our ethnicity, our culture comes from God. And it’s expansive. Look at all the people and languages that God has created. And so when that is stolen from us, or when that is withheld from us, there’s disruption that happens to me in God’s original design. And so it’s about the reordering of things, you know, reconciliation, justice is about the reordering of things. And so I’m so glad that you had this history. So just share a little bit about that.

Jamie Ivey  54:46  

Yeah, you know, it’s funny when you mentioned this before we started recording, I was like, oh gosh, I’ve never talked about this, and I don’t think I’ve even ever thought about it. Which now that I’m saying it out loud is kind of embarrassing, that this is part of my story and I literally have never engaged it, I have never dug into it. Because to set the stage, my grandfather, his mom was full Choctaw Indian. And he never knew his dad. And so we’re not sure how much percentage he is. So he grew up though in an orphanage. His mom worked there, and he grew up there. And then his mom left. And so he really kind of grew up in an orphanage. And I vaguely knew that about my grandfather when I was growing up. But keep in mind, I’ve already told you that my journey of having my eyes open to some of the realities of people in our country that aren’t necessarily taught correctly in school, that my eyes were open to that until the last seven years. And so I grew up with like, yes, my grandfather, Choctaw. But no really knowledge about it, he never really talked about it. It wasn’t ever a thing. He was very successful in life and all. So I never really thought about his journey and what that was like. And in 2006, he had already passed away at this time, but for years, this woman that he knew said to him one time, “I’d like to write your story down.” And she’s passed on since, you can’t even, my mom bought all the final copies of this book. And so there’s a book and it’s called Major Choctaw. I just looked it up on Amazon, and it says zero copies because it was like this independent book. But it’s called Major Choctaw: the Life and Times of Frank James Self. That’s my grandfather. And I read this book for the first time about five years ago. And my grandfather passed 17 years ago. And it was the first time I ever knew about his journey, and what it was like for him growing up, as, I mean, he called himself as an Indian, the injustice he experienced, the prejudice he experienced, the names he was called. And again, even as I say this out loud, I’m like, “Wow, I can’t believe that I have never taken that story of my grandfather and even dug into it even more with people surrounding me.” But that was his journey. And that’s what he experienced, and it was full of hardship for his entire life. His skin was very dark. So I think I am at a loss for words, because I don’t think I’ve thought about this very much. And you’re challenging me in a huge way right now, Tasha.

Latasha Morrison  57:42  

Okay. That’s what I do. I’m your friend.

Jamie Ivey  57:46  

I take the challenge. I know. And I take it and I think, wow, this matters. This is who I am. This is two people, this is my mom’s Dad. You know?

Latasha Morrison  57:58  

It matters. He wrote it down. He had someone capture his story because he wanted to leave a legacy. There’s a reason why he wrote it down. And maybe it was easier for him to write it down to talk about it. And maybe it helped him even begin to process. But I want you to finish the work. You know?

Jamie Ivey  58:22  

We can have our counseling session after, but I don’t feel like I understand him in that way. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know that life that he lived. And so it feels very removed from me. And I didn’t even know it when he was alive. And so I didn’t know it till I read the words.

Latasha Morrison  58:40  

Wow.

Jamie Ivey  58:41  

So that even feels a little like, wow, this is what my grandfather went through. And he never talked about it. You know?

Latasha Morrison  58:46  

Where was he was he born?

Jamie Ivey  58:47  

In Oklahoma.

Latasha Morrison  58:49  

Okay, in Oklahoma. He was Choctaw. That’s a good start. And he was registered, right? He has a card.

Jamie Ivey  59:01  

I mean, I get Christmas cards, calendars, oh, I get all the things from the Choctaw Nation. I get the newsletter. I get it all.

Latasha Morrison  59:12  

So you’re registered also?

Jamie Ivey  59:14  

Yes.

Latasha Morrison  59:16  

Okay, so your registered. Your mom was registered.

Jamie Ivey  59:19  

Yes. But our percentage is unknown because of my grandfather. You know what I mean? Like, because he only had one side. But he lived with his mom, but there’s no knowledge of the father.

Latasha Morrison  59:32  

Okay. Okay. So no knowledge.

Jamie Ivey  59:35  

When we get done with this, when I go home today, I’m gonna text you a picture my grandpa.

Latasha Morrison  59:39  

Okay, yeah, please do.

Jamie Ivey  59:41  

So handsome, but you could tell. I mean, it’s very obvious of his ethnicity.

Latasha Morrison  59:48  

So he wasn’t able to really pass.

Jamie Ivey  59:51  

No, no, no, no. No passing.

Latasha Morrison  59:53  

Yeah. And then his mama, you know, left him there. There’s a lot of story there. Wow. There’s so much Jamie. And I know, this is kind of like, unearthing a lot, even for you. But I think there’s some people listening that this may help. And then also some people listening that can help. My friend Mariah, she’s of the Choctaw Nation. And she’s actually biracial. And she actually lived on the reservation for a short period of time. And so there are a lot of people out there where this is their story, especially with the role that orphanages and boarding schools. And the injustice that happened to our Native and Indigenous community where people were forced to give up their children because of systemic racism. Where they basically said that you could, you know, I forget the particular saying, and I might come back and do this, but it was like, basically, you can’t kill all, then they use this word, you can’t kill all the Indians, but you can kill the culture and language attached to their history. And that’s what was done to a lot of people with the boarding schools. You know, where they were made to cut their hair, or they weren’t allowed to speak their language. It’s the same thing in a lot of places like Texas and California where the Latinx community weren’t allowed to speak their language. But that’s not a way to say, oh, you’re going to be an American, but that was done out of oppression and fear by Americans. And so I mean, you think about people who were from Poland, stopped speaking their language or Italians. All of that to fit into this bubble. But we’ve left a lot of our God given identity behind, you know, so why couldn’t that be a part of this story?

Tandria Potts  1:02:12  

Yeah, and you said this earlier that we see, we see the damage from generations before today. And you can look at that with Indigenous people and see, life today is a result of the past 50, more than that obviously, but for the years before of how our country treated these tribes and these different nations and these people. And we see that today still playing out with what’s happening on their reservations, and the lack of, you know, the poverty level and the drug level, all of the things, is this, it’s a direct response to what has happened to them before.

Latasha Morrison  1:02:52  

Right. Well, thank you for just showing just a little port that you do know.

Jamie Ivey  1:03:00  

Well, I don’t know anything about that, Tasha.

Latasha Morrison  1:03:00  

But you do know, first of all, you do know. You know your grandfather’s name. And you know what nation he’s a part of, you’re affiliated with that nation. Some people don’t have that information. So you have some information that some people long to have, you have that. And so you take that and however God leads or time to process. But I just think he wrote it down. And there’s so much that I wish my grandparents or my great grandparents would have had the opportunity to write down, or the opportunity for me to ask the questions if I knew what I know now, how many questions I would ask. I ask my grandfather, who is still alive, a lot of questions. My grandmother who died in 2016. My dad, we talked so much, I had so many questions. I was trying to get him to write down all the sayings that my grandfather used to say, I thought I had so much more time with my father. But it’s important for us to capture these stories. And a lot of times, you know, my dad didn’t talk about stuff because it was just a way of life. And they bury it. And it wasn’t until I started doing this work that my mom and dad start telling me stories. My auntie tells me stories. You know, the my grandmother talked about how she worked. I had never heard that story before. You know, and so I think there’s so much there. And I know we’re closing on time; we’re out of time. I could have a whole nother session with you, there’s so much. But what I wanted to just, as we close up and before we point to how people can follow you and get in contact with you. I know you started a YouTube channel. You just released a book last year and this year. What I would want to know, What do you wish other people knew about this conversation? And what do you think is missing from the conversation on racial brokenness that we’re not having?

Jamie Ivey  1:05:22  

I had a conversation with someone just the other day. And I alluded to the article, it was about our family in the Washington Post, and then the time that we were on Emmanuel Acho’s show last year. And on that show, I had said that I am afraid for my children every day, and that friend sat across the table, and she said, “Are you really? Like, is that true?” And I said, “It’s really true.” And so I think that I wish people knew the pain and the emotions that people walk through with every day that you might not see on the outside. And that they’re real, and that they matter. And I think that as humans, when we can see people’s, we can hear people’s stories and hear their pain a lot of the noise and the chatter that’s in the world goes away when you see someone for who they are. And so I think I wish that people would enter into spaces and conversations with people and trust that their feelings are real.

Latasha Morrison  1:06:37  

Wow. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, that’s real. I saw a picture of your boys. I think you guys had just taken a picture not too long ago. And I saw your middle son, the one from Haiti. What’s his name again? I know Story.

Jamie Ivey  1:06:58  

Amos.

Latasha Morrison  1:06:58  

Amos. And I don’t even know if you wanted me to say that. Oh, we could edit it out.

Jamie Ivey  1:07:02  

It’s okay. I talk about my kids.

Latasha Morrison  1:07:04  

Amos. And I saw, I was like, wow, he’s turning into a young man. And I know with that, you know, is how the perspective that the lens that people look at him through. He’s still your baby boy. He has a big, beautiful smile, fun loving. But sometimes people don’t know all those things, or see all those things, all they see is Black. And they attach so many other things to him that he’s not even aware of. I thought about that so much what my brother when I talk about my brother being 6’4″ and you know, but he’s a big teddy bear. I always say that. Because it’s like, I always have to give a disclaimer for his presence. And why should I have to give a disclaimer for his presence? You know? And so I saw that, and I was like, they’re growing up. And it’s like you’re in a whole nother, a different season of parenting. And that is scary. And my friends live with those thoughts every day, and they learn to adapt, adjust. But there’s a fear there, you know? My friends are sending their kids off to college now, and the talks and the concerns, and “You can’t do everything that everybody else does. You’re an athlete.” Like, all these different things that’s going through their minds, that is real. And I do wish that people understood that. What hope do you have for racial healing?

Jamie Ivey  1:08:56  

Well, based on what I said earlier, you would think none. But here’s the hope I have is that I have seen change in myself. I have seen change in generation above me. And if I can see change in myself, then there is changes available. Like it is it is possible. And it is it is there. And it’s for the taking. And people are willing to do the hard work, because it’s not easy to change. It’s not easy to change anything in your life, and especially not easy to undo things that you didn’t even know you had been taught. Like you didn’t even know that you had been taught things that aren’t true and right and kind and God honoring. And so I think the hope is, we see glimpses of change, and although this work is hard, and you see it on the daily, you probably have so many stories of change. And if there were so many stories of change, there’s hope for everyone to also change as well.

Latasha Morrison  1:10:01  

So good. It’s all about transformation, all about change and leaning into this. Now, Jamie, how can…what are you working on now? Like, you’re always working on something. I’m telling you. I’m like, sometimes when things get hard, I think about I’m like, “You know what, Jamie got four kids, she got a podcast, she’s a wife, a mother, she writing all these books, you can do it, Tasha. You can do it!” That’s me motivating that nine in me sometimes that you know. That eight wing helps me out. But you know, sometimes that nine is like, oh, I just need, I need to think. (laughter)

Jamie Ivey  1:10:44  

I know. Well, I have a children’s book coming out in October. And so that’s the newest thing that’s happening. God Made You to Be You. And it comes out in October. I’m super proud of that and excited about it. It’s a board book for ages two to six. But that’s that’s the biggest thing that we’re working on right now. And then eventually, I’m going to start writing again, I’m trying to figure out what that’s gonna look like and what that’s going to be about. But I’m on that journey as well. And so yeah.

Latasha Morrison  1:11:10  

And you just wrote a book with your husband also, right?

Jamie Ivey  1:11:13  

My husband, Aaron, I released a book in the spring called Compliment: the Surprising Beauty of Choosing Togetherness Over Separate in Marriage. So it’s a marriage book, which I said I would never write. And we did. Yeah. And then I had a book come out last fall called You Be You. And it’s just about really, really being the person that God created you to be and not trying to be other people. Be you because God made you to be just how you are. So yeah.

Latasha Morrison  1:11:38  

Yeah. I love that. And let me tell you, you’ve inspired me in so many ways. You are so unconventional. And I love that about you. That’s one of the things that I’ve loved, like, you know, I love your tattoo sleeve. You know, you’re spicy. And the other thing, there’s something that’s always stood out how your husband does all the cooking, like, he’s a chef. And he loves to cook. And that’s his thing. That’s his lane, and you let him have it. And he’s okay with it. He’s confident about it. And then how you tell me, “But the outside is mine. I like to cut the grass. I sit on that tractor.” And I can I know where you live. And that’s a lot, that ain’t grass. That’s like, that’s a whole, I don’t know what that is. That’s a field.

Jamie Ivey  1:11:38  

It’s a field, yeah, (laughter)

Latasha Morrison  1:11:43  

You’re cutting that field. And we’re in Texas. And I know where you are. And I mean, there’s like scorpions and snakes. You know me going to bugs and all that stuff. And you talking about how you just chilling on the tractor just cutting that grass. And I was like, but I love that. And I think how you approach life, you bring that into this space in this work. Just being courageous and brave in this. And we’re all growing, you know, you’re on that journey, you’re not going to arrive. You’re trying to say, because I know how it is like, okay, cause you have a lot of different friends, you have other friends, you have other Black friends besides me. And so sometimes, and we’re not a monolithic group. So we all feel different ways, sometimes about different things. So if one person tells you this, another person tells you that, and I know how that goes. So you’re like, “Okay, I’m trying to do this dance. I don’t know, okay, do I say this? This person said they don’t like…” and so the thing is to do the best that you can. And you can say, “I was told this by one person. And I’m learning.” And so you got to filter these things out and allow.

Jamie Ivey  1:13:33  

Can I say something about that, Tasha? Because we had the whole conversation about sympathy and empathy. And you know that’s such an example of like me wanting to be careful. But I’ll be honest with you, I don’t know if you noticed this when we were talking about my grandfather, I don’t have a grasp on language with, and so I am even stumbling into Native American, Indian. Like so I’m telling you, you have challenged me so much in things that I don’t know. And it’s my family. So I want to know, and so thank you for that challenge so much.

Latasha Morrison  1:14:08  

Yeah. Because your grandfather probably uses the word Indian. The whole book is saying that and I know like, it’s a generational thing.

Jamie Ivey  1:14:19  

And he said that his whole life to me. Yeah.

Latasha Morrison  1:14:19  

And like, even if you go to some of the websites of the nations, some times the language is in there. Like a friend of mine, well, they’re not like a considered a registered tribe, there’s a whole history. I mean, when you get into this stuff, I’m still learning and I may mess up and so I’m sorry if I mess up in this. We need people to help lead us in this. This is not my story. But I like to use my platform to elevate other stories. And so my family grew up in Robeson County which is home of of a lot of Native communities and one which is the the Lumbee natives. And so I grew up, I went to school with all of these people, and you know, and some friends are Native and so, or Lumbee. And I always grew up there was Lumbee Indian. That’s what my family calls it. But now I’m like Lumbee Native, but when I go and read stuff, it says Indian. So all these things, but it’s what broken systems do, right? Broken systems create broken language. And language that dismisses and dishonors, but we take on that a lot. My grandfather’s birth certificate said negro, my father’s birth certificate. No, excuse me, my grandfather’s birth certificate said colored. My father’s birth certificate said negro. My birth certificate says Black. This next generation, their birth certificate says African American. So systems can be corrected. But we are living within a broken system. And you know, you see that. And when you read speeches, MLK’s speeches, he uses the word, you know, we use those words and those terms that are not politically and socially accepted now. So we’re on a learning journey. So I challenge you to learn the language. And I’m still learning I mean, these titles, all these things like, you know, and one of our generations, you know, some kids don’t like to be called Black. And you know, I’m fine with it. You know, they prefer African American. I even have my my goddaughter tell me, “Well, I mean, we are a color. So why is colored bad?” I’m just like oh, baby, oh, baby. You just don’t know, you know. So now she understands. But you know, that they’re learning because some things have a negative meaning to them. And so anyway, she said, “Because I’m not Black. I’m Brown.” And so it just the racial hierarchy, it makes no sense. But we’re trying to make sense out of something that makes no sense. And so thank you so much. How can our audience listen to you and find you?

Jamie Ivey  1:17:19  

Well, wherever you’re listening to this podcast, also search for the Happy Hour and you’ll find me and if you want to search for the Happy Hour and Latasha Morrison, and like you said, you’ve been on a couple times, you can start with our episodes, which I love them. And then my favorite platform is Instagram. So I’m over there @JamieIvey and then JamieIvey.com is where everything is, but our newest venture is the Jamie Ivey Show, which is a video format and it’s on YouTube, so check it out.

Latasha Morrison  1:17:43  

Okay, well, thank you so much, Jamie. Thank you for your friendship and just love you and I look forward to hearing more about of the story because I know you, I know you. So we got to have a part two to this because yes, get everything in. We’ll have to have a part two. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much audience for just being my Be the Bridge friends for listening, and we look forward to having more conversations and really leaning into some of those difficult conversations.

Tandria Potts  1:18:16  

Go to the donors table if you’d like to hear the unedited version of this podcast.

Narrator  1:18:23  

Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge podcast. To find out more about the Be the Bridge organization and or to become a bridge builder in your community. Go to Bethebridge.com Again, that’s Bethebridge.com . If you enjoyed this podcast, remember to rate and review it on this platform and share it with as many people as you possibly can. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Today’s show was edited, recorded, and produced by Travon Potts at Integrated Entertainment Studios in Metro Atlanta, Georgia. The host and executive producer is Latasha Morrison. Lauren C. Brown is the senior producer. And transcribed by Sarah Connatser. Please join us next time This has been a Be the Bridge production

Transcribed by https://otter.ai