293 – What to Do When Faith Disappoints with Apologist and Author Lisa Fields

Narrator
You are listening to the Be the Bridge podcast with Latasha Morrison. Each week, Be the Bridge podcast tackles subjects related to race and culture with the goal of bringing understanding. “But I’m gonna do it in the spirit of love.” We believe understanding can move us toward racial healing, racial equity and racial unity. Latasha Morrison is the founder of Be the Bridge, which is an organization responding to racial brokenness and systemic injustice in our world. This podcast is an extension of our vision to make sure people are no longer conditioned by a racialized society, but grounded in truth. If you have not hit the subscribe button, please do so now. Without further ado, let’s begin today’s podcast. Oh, and stick around for some important information at the end,

Latasha Morrison
Be the Bridge community. We are back. It’s been a little break. We’ve had a lot to happen over the summer, but we are back, and we have a special guest that is with us. And if you don’t know her, you’re going to know her after this interview. We have Miss Lisa Victoria Fields, I want to say the whole name, and I’m telling you just this season that I’ve been walking through, personally, Be the Bridge has been walking through, even Lisa is sharing some things with me. It’s just this book that she has written that we’re going to talk about today, but I want you to know a little bit more about Lisa. I had the opportunity to endorse this book, and her book is called “When Faith Disappoints”. And I know that a lot of us can relate, when we’re hearing that, some of you are turning your volume up a little bit louder, because we have been here. Because sometimes we feel like, I’m a Christian and nothing should happen to me, and that’s not the case, and sometimes that disturbs people. When life is life-in’, you hear me, life has been life-in’, I feel like I’m walking this out. How do you lean in to this grief? How did you lean into the season and draw closer to God in that? And with your questions, with your doubt, with your fears. Lisa is the founder of Jude 3 Project and one of the world’s most sought after Christian apologists. A Black woman apologist, like I want us to pause there, and let’s give her a hand. Her personal experience of having her faith challenged in college led her to the work she does now with Jude 3 Project, helping Black Christian community know what they believe and why they believe it, and this is so needed. Her target audience is the Black community. Through the Jude 3 Project, Lisa has hosted the Courageous Conversations conference, developed curriculum, curated various video series, a documentary, hosted the Jude 3 Project podcast. She has helped to produce two documentaries that are, that I highly recommend, and we’ve, I think they’re actually on our list. One is called “Unspoken”, it is an in depth look into Christian heritage of Africa and people of African descent and “Juneteenth: Faith & Freedom”. And so I want you to make sure, even if you are a white person, to check these out, because this is going to help you, equip you to understand what’s happening within our culture, we’re brothers and sisters, and we want to know how we reach one another. And I think, and a lot of you who are listening to me, you have adopted transracially, I think that this is just an important conversation. So I don’t want you to turn it off, because I said her target audience is the Black audience. I want you to turn it on, and I want you to lean into the conversation even more and learn to strengthen that muscle sometimes that when you’re not centered in the conversation, I think that’s important. So thank you, Lisa, for being here.

Lisa Fields
Thank you for having me. Tasha, I’m excited to join you.

Latasha Morrison
Now, why this book? Why? Why? Why did you write this book?

Lisa Fields
So I think it’s funny, because I’ve been telling people, when people leave the faith, especially millennials, I feel like they do an exit interview with me. People want to talk to me on their way out, to tell me why they leaving and just hearing and doing this work for so many years, I know that so many people are disappointed, and they’re disappointed with people, they’re disappointed with church leadership, all those things, but their real disappointment lies with God. Because if you’re all loving, all powerful and all knowing, why are you letting these people do this to me, yeah, or why are you letting these things happen to me, and when you’re upset with God and you have questions, sometimes people don’t feel the freedom to ask those questions, because they’re like, I can’t, I can’t ask God a question. He gonna strike me down. Right, right? Or, you know, there’s all these things you can’t, in our communities, older people, you say, “Don’t question God”, you know. So when you’re not able to ask questions from the person that your deep concerns are, it builds up a level of resentment, and eventually you will leave the faith, or you’ll be present in the faith, but mentally gone. And I wanted to speak to people who were, who have been in the faith for some time, and they are kind of just on the fence, they’re like, I’m here, but I’m not here. It’s so much stuff I’ve seen. It’s so much stuff I’ve heard, I’ve dealt with emotionally, and Christianity seems to not be working to help solve these deep core concerns and problems that I’m facing. And for those who are skeptics and not Christians, they’re looking at Christianity from outside looking like, if this looks like chaos, when I see the political climate, when I see what’s happening, I don’t know if this is the faith that I want to buy into. And so after I’ve talked to many people through the years, I noticed that their core concerns are not usually, so somebody may say, I’m an atheist because of evolution, right? Then, when you peel back and listen, it may be that they prayed as a young child for their parent to be healed of cancer, and they still died. And so it’s like, what are the root issues that are causing people to leave the faith, that are causing people not to want to be a part of the faith and speak to that, and minister to that, getting really to the root of the issue, and that’s what this book is about.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah, so good. And I think it’s so needed. I was just talking with my my god daughter, who is a, I guess she’s considered Gen Z, and not Gen alpha, but Gen Z. And she was just saying, you know, Auntie Tasha, you know, we gotta talk. I have so many people that are just leaving the faith, or either, you know, becoming very apathetic, you know, and a lot of them are being drawn into, you know, other things. You know, she mentioned Hebrew Israelites, and you know, just different things that they’ve been drawn into. I know you’re having conversations on college campuses, you know, across the country, where I know a lot of, you know, talking to African American, to Black Christians, Gen Z, Gen alpha. What is some of that? Where’s some of that coming from? And why do you see some of the resistance to Christianity?

Lisa Fields
Yeah, I think when you think about like African spiritualism or Hebrew Israelism or New Age crystals and sage and people using those for spiritual connection, I think especially when I think about African spiritualism and Hebrew Israelism. I think about identity, right? I talk about when we were at Southern University in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, a Hebrew Israelite, two Hebrew Israelites came to our event, and they were trying to cause the disruption during Q and A, and one stormed out because he got frustrated with some of the answers, but one stayed and tears welled up in his eyes, and he said, “Why are my people struggling like this?” Like, why are we being shot in the street, like he he said, essentially, it must be that we are cursed. And so he was like, we have to fulfill the law to get from up under the curse, you know, because that’s how he was making sense of the problem of evil. That’s how he was making sense of him having some kind of value or him having to retain his worth. And a faith that gave him like that, we are the chosen people. It gave him an identity. And so I think beyond arguing with them on the street is seeing what is the at the core of this? You want to feel valued. You want to feel like there’s justice for the injustices that you’re dealing with. And that’s the core concern. And so I think people miss that in the argumentation, or when people are saying they want to do sage and crystals. It’s like, well they’re looking for peace. They’re looking for something that would, if this crystal or this sage is supposed to cleanse their atmosphere. What do they feel their atmosphere is like? They must feel like their atmosphere is chaotic. They must feel like their atmosphere causes them turmoil and angst. So that’s a peace issue. So I’ve just found my approach better dealing with the core concern, instead of arguing with them. Oh, you need to put that sage down. You need to put that crystal down. Oh, you know, that’s demonic, yeah. Well, it could be. But what is the core concern? And let’s minister to that, because so many of our young people, especially with mental health, are dealing with so much torment, so much angst. They’re afraid because they’ve had school shootings. They’re afraid because they’ve grown up in these kind of anxious environments with Covid and they weren’t able to graduate, you know, they weren’t able to go to prom, they weren’t able to do certain normal things, and so that creates a level of angst. And then you go to school, and then you’re wondering, like, all of these things that create angst, and then you’re isolated, and you get used to isolation. And so really looking at like, what is, what are they wrestling with? And how can I minister to that? How can I be present with them in that to really show them the shalom and peace that God offers?

Latasha Morrison
Yeah, so good, so good. And I think with a lot of this, you know, we have to look at biblical literacy, you know. And I think that is a lack, you know that’s happening now where there’s not a understanding of Scripture by Bible historical context. Hermeneutics, like all of that is lacking within the church. And so when that is lacking within the church, we see that in people. So how do you see biblical literacy, the need for it. And then how do you see that connected to racial literacy?

Speaker 1
Yeah, so biblical literacy is huge. I always say in apologetics, you can’t defend a faith you can’t define. And one of the ways we define our faith is through the word of God. But not only we can’t defend the faith we can’t define, but it is very hard to understand God apart from his word. And we build up a faith based off of principles and not based off of Scripture. So there’s a scholar, he’s passed now, but he has a book on Hebrews. His name is William Lane, and he essentially argues, we claim to be people of the book, but in reality, we’re people of our favorite scriptures. So we we’ll read Psalms forever, but we have never read all 66 books. Yeah, and that’s most Christians. And so if you construct a idea of God based off pieces of information, you have a very skewed view of God, a very skewed view of the Christian experience, and when things are different than what you expected, or when your life starts to go different, or where you’re having trouble it, it looks like this is like, that God is not true to his word, but reality, you may have not read his word to know what He said, like, if things are going bad, He says, “Many are the afflictions of the righteous.” He prepared you. He didn’t, he didn’t blindside you because things are in his word, I’m suffering and going through. Well, read the Psalms, David is always,

Latasha Morrison
I mean, half of the book is on lament, like half.

Lisa Fields
Why is my soul cast down? Like Psalm 73 the Psalm of Asaph, which is one of my favorites. “I saw the prosperity of the wicked… and my foot always…”, like this is the norm, if you read his word. And so I think so many people are blindsided because they don’t read. And so they’re biblically illiterate. And so they’re like, Oh, I believe God, I believe all 66 books. Like, well, have you read it? And it’s like, oh no. Well, how can you believe what you haven’t read?

Latasha Morrison
Right. And so that’s the problem we find ourselves in. Yes, so good. And I think that’s important, because even as you know, we don’t become Christians and become invincible, you know, and you know. And I think that’s important to remember when you’re going through it doesn’t feel good, and you know. And I always say, sometimes, when I see things happen. I said, “You know what? I feel like picketing the pearly gates. I’m a picket the pearly gates.” That’s just about like, how I laugh about the situation. But then also, on the other side of that, I’m like, God, like, Okay, I feel like sometimes when you’re suffering, you’re like, Okay, I’m on the right track in that sense, you know? And which is, which is hard to wrestle with, that both things can be true at the same time. And I think when you understand scripture, it helps you see it in that way, because you see, you know what happened to Paul, or you see David, or you you understand, you know Peter, or you see Jesus, you know, like if they cast Jesus aside, like, you know, what more should I expect? You know? So I think those things are really important. You know, in your book, you know, what are some of the, what does some of the chapters look like? And how did you put that together? I know your Courageous Conversations event, your conference that you have coming up. I love the format of this, where it’s like a panel discussion, and you post a lot of content, like great videos to kind of capture the thought, you know, in a short amount of time, but really with laser focus. You know? What are some of the things that are going to be discussed? I know you a lot of it is coming from your book. What are some of the key chapters that you’re going to be focusing on?

Lisa Fields
Yeah, so every panel this year is based off of the the seven pain points. So the pain points are Personhood: Who am I? Peace: How can I find some kind of solace in this chaos? Provision: Where is God in providing for me? Pleasure: How can I find joy in a life full of pain? Purpose: Why am I on this earth? Protection: Why didn’t God protect me? and Power, which is the panel that you’re on. And so every panel is a chapter, is a pain point, that’s based off the book. Because I think these, if we get at these core concerns, these core pain points, then I believe it will free a lot of people, to know that not only they’re wrestling, I’m wrestling, and people they admire, respect, leaders across the country have had to wrestle with these things and navigate this.

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Latasha Morrison
The book gives people permission to do that, that wrestling. And I think, you know, I think one of the things that I remember, you know, especially being in youth ministry, kids would be afraid to ask their parents questions, because they felt like, “Okay, I’m not being, I’m not full of faith or I have doubt”. And so I had to, like, really establish, like, a safe zone, in a sense, where no question is a stupid question, no question is ignorant. We’re going to bring our questions to the Lord, because it’s healthy for us. You know, we have a brain. We’re a part of this broken world, and so we, I would rather you wrestle with this question with believers in community, then try to go and deal with this on your own, or your first year of college, when you’re vulnerable and you know, and just in that, that era of curiosity and not knowing what you’re going to be met with. Why is that really important to really set the groundwork for people to understand, you know that doubt is healthy.

Speaker 1
So Dr Jo Vitale, a great dear friend of mine, she’s an Old Testament scholar, says when you go into any relationship, the first thing you do is ask questions. Yeah, to get to know people, you ask them questions. And so we need to reframe questioning as not a bad thing, but a healthy way to get a deeper relationship with anyone. And if you when you meet someone, you’re interested in dating, on the first date, you’re asking them a whole bunch of questions, not to interrogate them or not because you’re angry, but you want to get details about their character. Yeah. And so when we’re entering relationships with God, sometimes we leave out the practical element of, if I want to know God on a deeper level, if I want to know his character, I need to ask some questions. Why do you move like this? Yeah, and some answers are laid out in Scripture, but there are some answers to your pain that you have to wrestle with him to get answers to, and you might not get all the answers you want, but usually in the wrestling you get a reframing of perspective. And if you don’t ask him that question, you build up false ideas about who he is, or you, or or both. You grow resentment towards him. And so it is important for freedom, for deeper understanding of God, for a deeper relationship, that questions begin to take place. And I think if we frame questions like that: I’m questioning God because I want to know him deeply, not because I want to abandon him, right, then people will see it differently and will feel freer to ask those questions from God.

Latasha Morrison
I know, you know, just in this space as an apologist, like as a Black woman, you know, how have you navigated this, you know, being a leader of an organization, as a African American woman, you know, I want to know like, what are some of your learnings, what have been some of your challenges, and then some of your triumphs?

Lisa Fields
Yeah, so I think, you know, learning this space has been a very interesting thing. Yeah, apologetics is that all white men discipline, for the most part, older white men run apologetics. And so when I came in this space, I remember talking to an older white gentleman, and he said to me, he was a leader of a major Christian nonprofit, and he had been doing this for years. Before this he was a businessman. And I was like, Yeah, we struggling to fundraise, what would you recommend? He said, Well, you have three things working against you. You’re Black, you’re young, and you’re a woman, and apologetics is an old white man sport. And he wasn’t really trying to be mean. He was just trying to give me the reality like, this is the challenge for you. You’re on the opposite end of the spectrum from this. And so I left that conversation discouraged, because I’m like, God, you sent me on mission impossible. But he encouraged me to still move forward. God did, in that disappointment. And so there have been many challenges, many microaggressions, many aggressions, not micro that have been hurled towards me. Not just because of me being Black, but sometimes even with Black men, me being a woman, yes, and the intimidation sometimes that comes because Jude 3 has gotten further than maybe some of them have, and so that’s caused, like, Oh, you’re not supposed to be doing this, because you’re a woman, you know. So that’s a constant struggle. But, you know, it’s funny, because friends sometimes become enemies of your work, and sometimes enemies of your work become allies, yeah. And so I’ve learned just to give time time. Yeah, some people come around. Some people that are celebrating you today won’t be celebrating you tomorrow, and vice versa. But that has more to do with where they are in life than what is going on actually with you. It might be something going on within them. So give them grace, because they might come back around again. It is just, that’s what I’ve had to learn, to not take some things personal and not be so connected to the idea of people liking me. I lean heavily on the friends I’ve known for years, and my family, and if they’re good with me, and if God’s good with me, then all the other stuff, it doesn’t really matter. Because at the end of the day, if something happens, and Jude 3 is unable to be this great organization, the people that I’ve built deep relationships with that knew me before this, my family and friends will still be there, and these, all these other people will probably be gone. And so I keep that in mind for sobriety. And also it’s like, I tell people this, and I, it may be the corporate background I have, but I understand that people are doing business. They may say, Oh, we’re family, and this is a Christian community, but I know, I’ve known that people are doing business, and I keep that in mind when I’m moving in different spaces. Because no matter how much they try to tell you to make it seem like it’s Christian agenda or Kingdom agenda, I know they’re doing business, and if I no longer help them do that business, I’m going to be gone. And so these are things, practical things I had to learn. Learn to do this work as a woman in this space.

Latasha Morrison
And I think that goes back to why, you know, some of the things that happen, especially in the racial justice space, over the last couple of years in the Christian space, has been performative, because, like, at the end of the day, people are doing business, and if it’s not bringing in money, or if it’s going to cost them, if it comes with a cost they don’t want to do it. And this work comes with a cost. And, you know, I think one of the things you said is so true, as a female leader, you know, we communicate outside of this because we need support. Like, you know, there’s, you know, you’re building a nonprofit organization, and you’re an anomaly, you know, in this space. You know, the same thing with myself. And I think one of the things I had to learn is that everybody’s not going to rock with you, and everybody’s not going to like you, and every room that you go in, people are not going to like you, and sometimes that very hate and what you would say, discouragement, is going to come from people that look like you and that, I think that, to me, has been the hardest when some of the the tension or the angst or the pushback comes from people who look like you. Boy that used to rock me, you know? And it would also, I think I never had quit in me until you have some of those experiences, where it will make you doubt yourself more so because you have that expectation for people who don’t look like you, you know, you’re prepared for that battle. But when it’s a battle that people that look like you, it has been very difficult, you know, in that so I get that, I understand that. But then also, like you said, like not realizing that that small group of people, or some of those voices, are not the majority voices, and so learning to lead into your calling and what God has called you to. And for such a time as this, you think about what’s happening in our society and the good work that you’re doing, and the work that you’re doing also coming out of the seminary that you’ve come out of. You know we have that in common. I’m not giving them any free advertisement right now. But if you read our bios, you may pick that up. But I’m also back in seminary right now, just to, because I feel a need to get even more equipped as it relates to what’s happening in culture now. And, you know, I will give this, this little, this seminary, a little bit of cred, you know, Denver Seminary, because of just some of the work they’re doing and the support that they’ve been giving women leaders, female leaders, which is difficult in this space, you know? One of the things I want to know, I want you to tell our leaders more about Courageous Conversations, the conference that you’re having and how it gives you hope for the future of the church.

Lisa Fields
Yeah. So Courageous Conversations is our annual gathering that pairs thought leaders, preachers and scholars that were trained in conservative and progressive spaces, an opportunity to come together for dialog around things that impact faith and culture. And the reason that that is important for me is because it is a bridge building exercise. People think Black people are monolith, and we all believe the same thing, but just like any other group, there’s diversity within our belief systems, how we think, what schools we attend, all of that. And so I really saw this as a bridge building exercise, because I know the value of hearing from different voices within my own community. I remember as a seminary student, I went to a thing called the Academy of Preachers, and it was in Atlanta, and it was all of these seminarians from Black, white, they were all from different denominations, from every school across the country, seminarians from America across the country, conservative and progressive. And we had these preaching circles where we had to, we had to preach in front of our peers, so we had to give a sermon in front of our peers. But then we had preaching circles where we would all look at the text and the sermons and talk about it from different perspectives, and that was so transformational for me, coming from a Black, non denominational, Pentecostal background, and then going to Liberty is like, that’s one perspective, but then you have a Catholic, you have an Episcopalian, you have a Methodist, and we’re all sitting around the table having a conversation about the text, and we see it differently. Not just based on our denominational background, but our schooling, our own individual things that we’ve navigated with. And I thought that was so transformative. And so I was like, why don’t we do this on a major scale? And I think it has been transformative for people. It’s like, how do I talk to people? I believe in, not only telling people how to do things, but showing them. And so many people have come and said, you know, watching Courageous has taught me how to talk to people, what tone to use, like that we could all have a conversation and not be volatile. And I praise God for the civility that we’ve been able to have, even though we’ve had some tough conversations. And even though people don’t agree on some key issues, to be able to look at each other, stand ten toes down on what you believe, and the other person, and it still be civil. I think it’s a gift from God that he’s allowed to happen for for our conference.

Latasha Morrison
Well, I’m so grateful for the work that you do, it’s so needed. I’m grateful for just your courage and your braveness to step out there and to start something, not just talk about it, but actually do it. You’re starting something, and you’re pioneering and trailblazing in a space that many of us don’t go and I know, that you need the support, like Be the Bridge needs to support. So you know, those of you who are listening, if you want to pour into Jude 3 Project so that they can continue to produce the amazing videos and documentaries and curriculum, just reaching people just helping people to to become biblically literate. You know you can. Where can they find you?

Lisa Fields
Yeah, at Jude 3 Project.org, we are at Jude 3 Project on all social medias. And I’m on Lisa V Fields on all social media.

Latasha Morrison
I am so grateful. What is something, you know, there’s a lot happening. I know you’re in this season of grief with losing your grandmother. What is something that is bringing you hope and joy right now?

Lisa Fields
My nephew yeah, yeah, he’s two and so, one of the things about going, I went back home, I live in DC, but I went home for the week after my grandmother fell and passed, and I got to play with my nephew for that time. So it was a bitter time, but he made it sweet. And so he’s always a source of joy for me.

Latasha Morrison
That is so true. That is so true, watching kids play, and where they can play and be free and just laugh, that does bring a sense of joy, and so in this time of suffering, embrace the moments of joy, you know, and I think that is, the both of them can exist at the same time. And I think people don’t understand, you know, understand that, and there’s no one way to grieve. So I’m thankful for you. I’m thankful. I’m excited about your book, and I have it right here “When Faith Disappoints: The Gap Between What we Believe and What we Experience.” And so it’s available for pre order, right?

Lisa Fields
Well, it’ll be out next Tuesday, so August 13.

Latasha Morrison
So when this, when this drops, it’ll be available. And so make sure that you pre order this, or you order this book, finding hope when we can’t make sense of the pain. And this is the thing. This is another way to support, you know, leaders. This is another way where we kind of put our money, where our mouth is. This is another way not to be performative, where we like, “oh yeah, follow them” and you not reading what they’re writing. And we always tell people to look at, you know, your books in your library. How many books do you have written by women? How many books you have written by, you know, Asian Americans or Latin Americans, or you know African Americans, or people that are international, that are not in the western culture? You know, you know, broaden your view, and this also helps us become even more biblically lliterate so, finding hope when we can’t make sense of pain. This is renowned Christian apologist Lisa Fields here with us today. Thank you so much for joining us on the Be the Bridge podcast.

Lisa Fields
Thank you for having me.

Narrator
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge podcast. To find out more about the Be the Bridge organization and or to become a bridge builder in your community, go to bethebridge.com Again, that’s bethebridge.com if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, remember to rate and review it on this platform and share it with as many people as you possibly can. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Today’s show was edited, recorded and produced by Trayvon Potts at integrated entertainment studios in metro Atlanta, Georgia. The host and executive producer is Latasha Morrison, Sarah Connatser is the Senior Producer. Please join us next time this has been a Be the Bridge production.