Ep 292 | A Conversation with Jen Hatmaker to Celebrate the Launch of Brown Faces, White Spaces

Latasha Morrison
Be the Bridge community! The day is finally here. My new book, Brown Faces Whitespaces is out. I cannot believe it. I’m so excited for this book to be in your hands. This message involved years of research, writing, and prayer. Thank you for your pre order and your notes of encouragement. Thank you for cheering me on. To help me celebrate the release of Brown Faces Whitespaces. My good friend Jen Hatmaker is on the podcast with me today. This has been a long time coming, we go back to the beginning of Be the Bridge and look ahead at our collective journey to true emancipation. Stay tuned because after our conversation, you’re going to get a treat, you’ll get to hear the audio of chapter one of the book, Brown Faces Whitespaces. So make sure you stay tuned in and listen. So thank you so much for your support. And know that you can pick up your copy where books are sold or audio books are downloaded of Brown Faces Whitespaces. So pick up your copy and remember that the transformation that we’re wanting to see begins with each and every one of you. And this is the beginning point. Thank you so much again.

Narrator
You are listening to the Be the Bridge podcast with Latasha Morrison.

Latasha Morrison[Intro] How are you guys doing today? It’s exciting!

Narrator
We Be the Bridge podcast tackles subjects related to race and culture with the goal of bringing understanding, but I’m gonna do it in the spirit of love. We believe understanding can move us toward racial healing racial equity and racial unity. But Latasha Morrison is the founder of Be the Bridge, which is an organization responding to racial brokenness and systemic injustice in our world. This podcast is an extension of our vision to make sure people are no longer conditioned by a racialized society but grounded in truth. If you have not hit the subscribe button, please do so now. Without further ado, let’s begin today’s podcast. Oh, and stick around for some important information at the end.

Latasha Morrison
Okay, Be the Bridge community. It’s been a long time. It’s been a long time. We’ve wanted to do this for so long and it finally has happened. I have my friend, the One and Only Mrs. Jen Hatmaker. She is the New York Times bestselling author of 14 books including For the Love, Mess and Moxie, Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire. And her latest project, Feed These People – a recipe book she’s doing it all. She is secure rated for the gym, hatmaker book club and the homeless stuff, her award winning podcast, “For the Love” and I am so happy to be with her. S he is also the co founder of Legacy Collective, a giving organization that grants millions of dollars towards sustainable projects around the world. And she is the mom to five kids. And she lives in my former home Austin, Texas. Yes, and this is where I met Jen in Austin, Texas. And what I’m doing is, as I am about to launch a book, I’m actually having some conversations with people who were here from the beginning. And Jen, you were here from the beginning. I know some of our audience may not know that. They may not remember that. But even when I was reading this about Legacy Collective I mean – I’m just gonna say this like without the support of the friendships and the people and people leveraging their influence. I don’t know if Be the Bridge would be here because I remember you know, wanting to start this and not having the upstart money and Legacy Collective came alongside of Be the Bridge in the very beginning. And it was the first major donation that we had to really help make it a 501(c)3. And so I don’t forget that. And I know you haven’t forgotten that. And that is not removed from me and how that has happened. And not only that, just your enduring support, not just from the beginning. But even now, I know that I can pick up a phone or text, and text you. It may take you a little bit now actually, you actually, y’know, to be honest, you actually text back.

Jen Hatmaker
I was within 24 hours. That’s about my window. So- I’ll get there, I’ll get there.

Latasha Morrison
I wanted your advice on something I was going through earlier this year. And I was like, I just I need to, I need to, I need to ask people that have journeyed, that pathway before me. And I was able to text you, we got on the phone. And you helped me walk through that. And so I think that’s, that’s the real important thing. In this work of racial bridge building, is there’s no time stamp on it, y’know and it’s like, we don’t get to talk every day. We – our lives are in so many different places, but I know at the end of the day, and I hope you know this, too, that you can text me, and I can text you. And y’know, and it’s going to be there. So I love you so much! It’s so good to see you! Because we were talking on the phone, but I didn’t get to see you. So listen, you’re there’s so much going on right now. How are you doing? Wait a minute, you just had something major to happen!

Jen Hatmaker
I mean – I don’t want to make a big deal out of it. But like Oprah knows by name, so

Latasha Morrison
Listen, listen, I’m gonna make a big deal about it. I want to make a big deal about it.

Jen Hatmaker
I mean, Oprah raised me! I jetted home from high school every day, and I’d make my garbage snacks, whatever, mom had in the pantry, and come 4 PM. Let’s see what Oprah has got today! Let’s see it! I tried to explain this to it to my daughter. My daughter’s about to turn 24. Show Oprah show ended in 2011. So you know, this next generation doesn’t know Oprah the way we do.

Latasha Morrison
They don’t – they don’t

Jen Hatmaker
She’s our person! And yeah, they were just littles like, what she was kind of going off of her show. So anyway, it was really special. And she was really special. And, you know, it can close the loop moment here is that it’s always meant something to me, it’s always been special and important. And have a sense of honor and duty and responsibility and gratitude when someone like you invites me into an important conversation. So that does not mean it’s a one and done conversation. It’s not like, “hey, racism is fixed.”

Latasha Morrison
Right!

Jen Hatmaker
Ever, you know if it is it, it’s a table that is set imperfectly. And I’m always grateful to have a seat and say, I wonder if we could reimagine a different world than the one we see. And that’s what you do. And that yeah, is kind of the, the invitation you held out to me God, what, when, when, what year?

Latasha Morrison
Oh, my goodness, I had to be in 2015. I think we met we met before 2015. We met in like 2014. But I remember when when that conversation happened at the conference, you came up to me. And you said the conversation has shifted. You were like Tasha, like the conversation has shifted. And I remember looking at you like, “what in the world are you talking about?” What’s going? I had no – I had no idea. And it did and I mean, you know we were doing courageous things back then. You’re still – we’re still doing courageous things we’re having conversations that sometimes other people don’t want to have. Like – just even the Oprah thing like there was a piece done on Be the Bridge in her magazine I think in 2020 / 2021 and our team was doing the same thing we were like,”oh my god! Oprah knows our name!”

Jen Hatmaker
Team no chill!

Speaker 1
Yes! No chill! It’s a thing because you know, the things that you were talking about and referring to are things that are on people’s heart and their mind and you would just share your heart not knowing that things were happening you were being gin [ginuene].

Jen Hatmaker
Y’know everything is a risk analysis of everything is trying to manage an outcome specifically a response to a conversation that is fraught, and that comes with history and pain and triggers and we’ll never ever get a table, really. Like, I just I have this, I have some sort of internal mechanism where I go, “alright, let’s analyze the merits of the conversation, or the host, or, y’know, the, the, where is it going? What’s the North Star of this conversation?” And then also, we may just have to do this imperfectly, and we’re gonna let people respond to how they do. That’s not what we’re in charge of, we’re gonna charge of outcomes and responses. However, what we are in charge of us sitting across from people and saying, “what sort of world do you envision that is healthier, more fair, more equitable, truer, better, kinder, wiser?” Those are my favorite conversations, and they tend to be clunky, and slow. And so it’s not that it’s not sexy work, that’s for sure.

Latasha Morrison
It is not, it is not. And, and like you said, like, we always say, you know, it’s a marathon, it’s not a sprint, and, and we’re in it for the long haul, and it’s gonna be ugly, and it’s gonna be messy. And this goes back to like, I remember you were in one of the original Be the Bridge groups – Faith Brooke was your leader!

Jen Hatmaker
We made her be out leader! I think she was 22 years old – 22 years old! And do y’know what you gave her, what her curriculum was our little pilot be the bridge group? I remember that she brought it to our first group at Larua Jenning’s house. It was whatever you had given her printed out – on the front of one page and the back half of it. That’s it. Yeah, we had a page and a half of Be the Bridge free curriculum and you’re like, “go be a group.” We just, again, started imperfectly, we’d like sat at a table that was set to the best of our limits at the time. And went,”What can we still learn? Like, where could this go?” You knew, you knew your vision for Be the Bridge was absolutely anointed. And so even if we started with a page and a half, yeah, look at look, look at it! Bonkers. What you have built!

Latasha Morrison
It was the entry point. It was a it was an entry point for a lot of people. I even think about Marcy, who was in your group, and like all that she’s doing now. And I remember I had a conversation with her last year when she came out with her book. And I remember us meeting for lunch. And, you know, there’s not a lot of like, in the spaces we were in, in Austin. There’s not a lot of people that looked like she and she and I, and she was like, you know, wait a minute, wait a minute, we mad – we mad, are we mad? Okay, I’m gonna get mad like, it was so cute. It was so cute, but like to see all that she’s doing and all that she’s lending her voice to, you know, I couldn’t be just more proud of, of just all the good work that everyone is doing standing up for those in the marches. So, I’m just I’m just really grateful.

Jen Hatmaker
Faith has since written a book, Marcia has written a book. That was incubated with some thinkers, and some leaders and some really gifted communicators like that was an embarrassment of riches around that dining room table with our one and a half sheets of instructions. And so, yeah, yeah, you you really have led a movement. A true movement, and it is, it’s profound. To witness. Perfection.

Latasha Morrison
Can you believe that it’s been eight years? It’d be eight years coming up in June. Like I mean, I was very resistant, like, and so to say, eight years later. I mean it has not been easy. It is still not easy. It’s very difficult right now. But I mean, I mean, there’s been a lot of shifts in our culture since, you know, the eight years like, I mean, we go back, you know, what was happening in 2015, ’16? You know, we had election, and, you know, and I remember some encouragement, even through that, like, people were, you know, saying, like, you know, for such a time as this for such a time, and I was like, “I don’t want no time like this, like no.”

Speaker 1
Please stop! Like we’ve had enough, y’know. Look, look!

Jen Hatmaker
George Floyd and Oh, my God, the Black Lives Matter Movement. I mean, really, and truly,

Latasha Morrison
I think because we were coming in that – I think we when we were coming along, originally, we had it was like, Ferguson was in the midst of Ferguson. And then we had the Charleston nine of all the things that happened in Charleston. So, that was kind of like the beginning stages. And now here we are, where it’s like we have America has a very short term memory. So, here we are four years removed from the half reckoning that we had in 2020. And everybody done lost their mind and strategically lost their mind, and flipping the script and trying to roll things back. I mean, you’re right there in the midst of Texas. And I mean, so you’re witnessing it. You have kids in college, you know, every – everywhere. I mean.

Jen Hatmaker
All of their programs have been stripped from their universities. It’s devastating. We are racing backward in real time right now certainly in Texas, but we’re not the only culprits here. Yeah, it’s we’re in a dogfight with Tennessee, and Florida is a race to the bottom.

Latasha Morrison
At this one, I’m saying it’s a race, I was like, wow, we are like, when you think about the predecessors, like, you know, people who have led. And, you know, those States historically, when I look back at, you know, George Wallace, and just a different ones, like, some of the governors and things that they said, like, history keeps a receipt. And, and history is keeping a receipt. And 20 years from now, 30 years from now, you know, what will history say about you? And so some of those things, at that time, maybe they didn’t realize the waywardness of their ways and the wickedness of their hearts. But now we can point that, but we always say like, man, like, but they had, you know, I always say, you know, they had the Bible, just like we have the Bible. You know, like so. So, I have empathy, but not like empathy when we think about some of the things that has passed. But like, I mean, we’ve seen a lot of shifts and a lot of changes. What ways have you seen yourself like, shift and change when you go back? Eight years ago, or when you go back 10 years ago, from where Jen Hatmaker was, and how Jen Hatmaker has grown?

Jen Hatmaker
I was just talking to Tyler about this yesterday, I was telling him that you and I were going to be on today. And I was talking about our friendship and our history. And I was laughing with him, because I just, you know, I said, Tasha is uniquely gifted to lead this particular organization in this exact way, which is very largely in white spaces. Even mostly, if that’s a fair thing to say. And I’m like, I remember asking her early on, don’t you wish you were gifted differently? Don’t you wish somebody else got to this? This is a hard one. This is why did you have to take this baton? You lead in hard space.

Latasha Morrison
It’s not easy. It’s not easy?

Jen Hatmaker
Not easy? Yeah. You are clawing your way for every inch of gain. And I think about your leadership and friendship to me in those early days that we’re talking about. And that was near sort of the beginning of my internal process and work that I was doing just to dismantle my own innate sense of white supremacy and bias and learn.That was my that was my learning journey, too. I still am, of course, but that was more the beginning of of it. And what I was telling Tyler yesterday, and I just said, this is what I can tell you for sure about Tasha is she is a good teacher. And you taught me you were one of my most profound teachers during the worst phase of learning, which is the first face. It’s so terrible, like, Oh, it’s just so terrible. It’s sloppy, it’s ignorant. It’s uninformed. It’s a horrible phrase I hate well intentioned, well intentioned white people. At the front of the line, say, nonsense, just saying nonsense. Not understanding yet and not not listening. We only know how to be centered in a conversation. That’s been our entire lived experience. And so you’re my first teacher who said, Oh, nobody is centered. You got to be quiet for three months. The amount of people I have told that role to, Tasha, is 10 billion. I’m like, let me tell you the best thing I ever learned, and from one of the best teachers I’ve ever had, and so you have this, you’re just gifted this way. I know I’ve told you this a million times, but you have a patience and a you just have a gentle soul. You are a gentle natured person. You’re even and you’re just built for this.

Latasha Morrison
That’s just that nine in me. That’s that nine in me!

Jen Hatmaker
I know! We’ve got rage under herer! We just aren’t allowed to show it.

Latasha Morrison
I’m telling you that’s that, nine, but that eight – it keeps me It keeps me going, you know,

Jen Hatmaker
That eight we go strong

Latasha Morrison
And everybody like they know when the eight the eight, the eight is scary, in a nine.

Jen Hatmaker
That’s right. Because when you when you touch that rail, you’re there. Your path’s there and so everybody needs to buckle up when that when the nine goes eight.

Latasha Morrison
So funny oh my goodness, I mean, I think about you know, just even how, like, you know, I’ve done some training with your community and, and all the things and there’s a lot of things has happened – that happens on the back end that people don’t see. And people don’t know, there’s conversations that you know, you have that people don’t see and people don’t know. And even for me when things happen, or people mess up all the all the different things like I am never, and I’ll just, you know, say this, like, I am never about the call out like that, you know what I’m saying? Like, especially if I have relationships with people, I’m going to text you, I’m going to DM you, I’m going to talk to you because first of all, that’s how I would want someone that’s a friend of mine to react. And I love the way in any times that we’ve had conversations, you are so humble, you are reflective. You’re like, Girl, I didn’t know what I was thinking I was just such and such you know, and I love the fact that I’m going to look out for my people. And I’m you know, and I’m going to, you know, to try to initiate things if if there’s something I feel like I can I can speak into, you know, and I think the greatest thing that we tell people in this work is that you have to start from a place of humility.

Jen Hatmaker
That’s right. That’s right. That’s, that’s 80%.

Latasha Morrison
So key.

Jen Hatmaker
It’s so key. You talk that – set that expectation for the community you lead. Which is important! It’s important, because it’s your responsibility to protect the members of your community and to protect their souls and their psyches from further harm from a bunch of people who don’t know what they’re saying yet. And that matters. And that’s really, really important. And I’ll just tell you, I still feel that way. I still feel like…

Latasha Morrison
Yeah, yeah.

Jen Hatmaker
I am not the front of the march holding the banner. I’m back behind ya.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah, I know.

Jen Hatmaker
I’m here! I’m with you!

Latasha Morrison
Yeah!

Jen Hatmaker
I’m like lead on! Lead on! You’re such a good leader. And yeah, I have learned so much from you so so so much from you. And I just, I credit you with doing this slow, hard work of turning a tide. It’s so slow. Yeah. Oh, yes. Well, I wish it could be faster. But this is how it goes.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah. And you know, we’re gonna stay, you know, like I tell our team that we’re in this work, when it’s in the news and when it’s not. When people are listening, and when people are not, you know. When people value it and see that its matters are important and when it’s not, because we’re not reactive, we’re not reactive in this, we are proactive in this. I am even thinking about even you know, you are a parent that has adopted transracially. And I even think about like, even some of the things that has been inspiring because Be the Bridge we reach a lot of parents that have that done that. And I love how your posture in that and you know how you write about so many times, you know, your journey and how that was the beginning of some of the learning for you. But I also remember, you know, you putting your son, I think in a on a football league, and you want him to be more connected with people that look like him. And you’re driving like like –

Jen Hatmaker
We drove to the next town – yeah. So all of his coaches were Black, yeah. His teammates were black. He saw his self represented in the stands and on the field. And yeah, that was a great decision. And, and that’s not hard. Like yeah, no, I like I love the word the “work” because that’s what it is. Yeah, it’s just a choice. A lot of it’s just a choice. Is it hard to drive to the next town? It’s not like in the big scheme of things. That is not a heavy lift for what it creates and my son’s heart and soul. As he’s developing his worldview and as he – he already has to be in a white family. Like, yeah, yeah, that is already racially disruptive to his story. But again, these were conversations we were having too

Latasha Morrison
Yeah!

Jen Hatmaker
Back then, like, this is what it looks like. And I learned – I learned from a lot of people in your community, you, of course, but also a lot of people in the community. Because your space is a no holds barred, you know, like it’s on.

Latasha Morrison
It’s on and I think, you know, one of the things even with forming Legacy Collective, the need for that, and the reaching back and reaching forward and reaching sideways, that Legacy Collective has done and I mean, I mean, you tell the story of Ben and his, you know, like, being able to find his mom, and, you know, you’ve taken him back there to Ethiopia, he’s in contact with his, you know, his family there, just just that whole story. I mean, if you guys read her books and follow her, you, know, some of those things, but I think those are some of the things that are really inspiring. And as, as women like you, tell those stories, other people are able to glean from those people who are listening are able to kind of pull up a chair and listen and grow as you are listening and growing, being able to share some of those parts from you with sometimes criticism, and then sometimes, you know, joy, those things are going to connect with the things that people are connecting with. Why do you think it’s important, Jen, like, just just where we are now. You know, I mean, I know even Tyler, like, he uses the arts. Like, if you guys know, Tyler, like I drink my coffee, black. It’s so funny, like, I we’ve never met, but I feel like I know, you know, but I think about that. And I know, You’ve had a lot of conversations. Why do you think it’s important for us to collectively tell our story, and not conceal the difficult parts of our history? Why is that important for us? You know, I’m talking about in this new book, systemic racism, and so much of this like, I mean, we want to conceal I’m like, You guys are banned in Ruby Bridges book, and Ruby Bridges is alive and well, and 69 years old. 68 or 69. She is on Instagram wearing Chuck Taylors, you know, like, and you’re salicin her story, because it makes you feel bad. I mean, why do you think that is? First of all, the most absurd thing? But why is it so unhealthy?

Jen Hatmaker
If you can even know the letters I have written my legislators about this. Number one, just buckle up governor, I, I can speak personally, and just tell you that toward the beginning of this season, where I’m like, I want to opt in here, I want to opt in as a learner, I want to opt in as knowingly a part of this dominant culture who has no outside experience. I’m going to have to sit pull up a seat to a new table and listen, yeah, yeah. For me. Outside of listening and learning from your lived experiences, from the lived experiences of so many Black teachers and Black authors, and Black leaders and Black activists and everybody that I was like, listening to at the time, it was history. That reached down into the center of my soul and changed me.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker
I grew up in Kansas and so my history like much of America’s, was literally whitewashed. There were whole sections left out – whole ideas, reframed, and just the brutality, of slavery and white supremeacy all of it just dimmed. Of course, the light just stemmed right on down to a little bit more palatable. And so, it was actual US history, just not embellished, not editorialized not, like bunch of commentary, just here it is on the page. Here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here. And then here, here, here, boop, boop, boop, decade after decade, generation after generation that arrested me for this work. And so people can get – they can find a place to hide from the work of anti racism inside your feelings. That white people have done it forever. The need to appear virtuous, particularly for Christians, but it doesn’t matter all white people – to appear virtuous and this beautiful idea that white people have, which is that everybody gets what they have on merit, right? You know, which somehow says, well, look how much merit we must have. Wow! We are killing it. The white people are killing it. You know, we love that idea. And so there’s all these constructs that can keep us separated and distance from the work of anti racism. But you know, what won’t? Cold hardfacts. History.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah, yeah.

Jen Hatmaker
This is what happened on the page. No, there’s no, it’s not. It’s not up for debate. Yeah, we’re not –

Latasha Morrison
Yeah!

Jen Hatmaker
We’re not sorting out.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker
The truth of it. This is what happened. It is. It was baked into the origin story of America. And it has been the, the bedrock of every system, every structure and every generation since that’s just facts. And so stripping our, our libraries, our universities, our public school systems, our corporations, with their, with their DEI departments, stripping them of the opportunity to steer the next generation into “real history.” It’s not just upsetting, it’s dangerous, we’re in trouble.

Latasha Morrison
Yes, yes,

Jen Hatmaker
We’re in trouble.

Latasha Morrison
Ye s and I’m so glad you said that. Because I like t think people understand the dangers that we’re in, you know, I was I was just thinking I was, I was watching, I think it was, it was a protest happening at one of the universities, why the universities are protesting. And it was a, a protest, protesting was happening at one of the Southern universities. And there was some racist remarks said against one of the protesters. And for a moment, I thought, like, I mean, you know, peaceful protest is a healthy thing, people are gonna say things that you don’t want to hear or say, but they have the right to do that. And I remember thinking like, man, although she is being brave right now, and trying to stand up, I know that pain, when you are called out of your name, when you are mocked. And I just remember, because I was one of those students who was called the name by someone in a frat, and but I remember I had a recourse on my university, to go to this organization called ABLE – Ally, Blacks for Leadership Inequality, you know, I had a minority student affairs office that I can go and talk to that Dean, and help and get resources to help navigate being in this PWI, this predominantly white Institute. And I was, I was thinking at that moment, like, a lot of these kids with things happening, they’re not going to have a recourse. They are not creating safe universities, you know, you know, are even brave or courageous universities, because what’s safe for you may not be safe for me, and was safe for some and not safe for others. And so, but sometimes being able to create these brave spaces where you deal in the tension of all of these things that are happening on our university, especially with the the protests, you know, with in the war against Palestine, and Israel, like all those things that are happening, and I’m just like, wow, like, this is, this is going to be devastating. And you know, like, and I don’t havechildren that are in college, you know, but I know for me right now, like, I’m like, although I went to a PWI I don’t, I wouldn’t feel safe sending my my kids to a PWI right now, you know, and, and that’s just that’s just that’s just real talk. It could be wrong, but it’s just how I’m feeling right now. And I mean, when we think about this, when we think about truth and justice, and history, and what are some things right now, this hurt helping you to persevere when we’re looking at like, because it’s easy, Jen for us to get into despair and to lose hope. I mean, I mean, for me, even for me right now, in this moment to see us like doing about face, you know, and to say one thing and do something, do something else. I do know that we have a minority group of people bolts that are really that have power that are speaking on behalf of a majority people, which is, which is interesting, you know, even as we it relates to our politics and, and all of those things. What are some things that’s helping you persevere right now – to not give up?

Jen Hatmaker
Everything feels so rattled right now. It is so yeah, we’re in an overwhelming moment in our culture in our country and everybody feels it, I feel the edge is fraying. And I this stuff’s same as you I lay awake at night, and worried. But even though we just you just use a really salient example of how race racism is very easily and intentionally even passed on generation to generation, as you referenced that school in Mississippi, where those kids are 20 or 19. Those boys yelling, that’s their kids for repeating cycles. So yeah, even though that is true, we just saw that that made national news and that’s, that’s factual. One thing that is keeping me marginally encouraged is what I think is maybe a large story or I broader story of the next generation in which I’m finding a lot of hope. I in general, again, this is not a carte blanche. everything’s fixed in the next generation, because of course, it’s not, but I feel really hopeful for this next gen coming up. I parent, you know, I have a bunch of them. I hope they’re, they’re mine. Like, I paid some of their bills.

Latasha Morrison
And one just got married!

Jen Hatmaker
One just got married! He’s off the payroll, we’d love to see it. So I know them. I know, their friends. I know their community. I’ve known them for a long time. They’re different. They’re different. They’re coming up different. They know more by miles than I knew at their age. They’re asking questions. I did not even think to ask until my 30s. Like, they, they’re paying attention. They’re engaged. They have a vision for a different world for something that’s more just more equitable, more fair, more, more aptly represented. Representative even. Yeah, so yeah, I listened to them. And I watched them. I see them on other college campuses just hurting for Palestine right now. And yeah, they’re, they’re engaged. And some of the things that I’ve talked about in front of my, my kids and their friends, they’re like, “mom, know.” Like, I’m thinking I’m doing some revelation, like revelatory teaching. Like, these are paradigms, we are shifting, and we reject, and we will overturn. They’re like, DUH. I’m hopeful. I’m hopeful that they’re going to come up and do more than we were able slash willing to do one generation ahead of them.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah, yeah. And I think they’re very teachable, like, you know, some of the things that we’re seeing, I know that these kids are, are teachable, with the right, you know, direction and they are listening, they’re leaning in, and they are compassionate. They are a very just generation. And they empathize. So I think I think we’re, we’re in good hands, you know, but I think it’s gonna come with a lot of discomfort, you know, you know, I have, you know, just and then when we’re talking about even some of the rolling back of, of DEIis so broad. In that sense, you know, we’re talking about, you know, you know, gender issues we’re talking about. We’re talking about, you know, yeah, it’s broad, we’re talking about special needs, like kids that have physical challenges, like when so it’s not just even race, and that I’m talking about even, you know, with all the anti semitism that’s happening now. Islamophobia, like, all these things that are happening, you know, you want your kids to be able to have people that’s going to stick up for them, you know, that’s going to be there to listen and stand in the kitchen with them. So just I’m not just like seeking that just for are kids that look like me, but I’m thinking about any kids that are in the margins? You know, we want to have that place those those those brave spaces on college campuses. So I am in, you know, encouraged by what I’m seeing. And then and but it is that tension of like, there’s some encouragement, but then there’s some disturbance that, you know, that we all have. What would you say – because a lot of people that are in this in this work, you know, I would say, there were many that started out with me, but now they’ve gone astray. Like, you know, because, you know, those of you that’s an old song, but like, but you know, but you know, it’s, it is difficult, and it’s so easy to get this, you know, discouraged in this, when it is a slow moving of the needle, what words of encouragement do you have for the be the bridge community, people who are still, you know, on the battlefield, they’re still in the game, they are still wanting to see restoration of all systems, like, we want to see racial healing, we want to see our version of reconciliation, while we’re still breathing, you know, in that sense, what would you say, what is some encouragement?

Jen Hatmaker
Gosh, I’m so proud of the community that you have built. And the individual decision that somebody makes to say, this matters, and I’m willing to, I’m willing to accept all the discomfort that comes with that, because, of course, to this conversation, there’s this this sort of maximum discomfort that we see at the policy level, at the university level at the state level, like, you know, huge. But for most ordinary folks, it’s down on the ground for them. This is micro, this is their uncle, this is their neighbor, it is the conversation with that one co worker that they have, and it’s then it becomes kind of chronic, you know, it’s this sort of chronic rub. And you have to – staying in it requires a certain tenacity, and strength of character. And it really does, it’s, it would be much easier to just off ramp and go. Okay, just gonna let somebody else carry this one. Like, can I pick something else? Yeah, and so I’m proud of people who say, this is the right thing to do. And I’ll tell them maybe something I tell myself internally, this has been a bit of a North Star for me for a lot of years. Which is, it’s starts like really, really low, Rachel Held, Evans told me this one time about a different issue. But it it was instructive to me. And I’ve hung on to it, which is doing the right thing is its own reward. And so there is an innate goodness and power and agency and strength in simply doing the right thing. Whether your uncle agrees with you or not, yeah, whether it’s going to create the 59th in a row hard conversation you have had with your sister. It doesn’t matter what, regardless of what is on the the results side of the equation, doing the right thing is its own reward. And so I tell myself a lot and I think this a lot when I’m in the malay of like frenzy and criticism, and you know, that can be very loud and disorienting. I think of myself a lot like a 95 year old when I’m 95. And I think all myself there at the very end of my life. And I think about her, first of all, who I want her to be about her coming back to the me right now and saying, “You’re doing the right thing. Stay the course. This is the story you want to write with your life. This is the what.” And when you’re 95, be proud of it. Be proud that you stayed at the tables that need to be stayed at, be proud that you were willing to weather discomfort that’s not the worst thing in the world. We’re not going to die. We’re not going to die from it. Write the story now that you want to tell with your whole life. And so 95 year old me gives me a lot of courage sometimes also wisdom. She gives me wisdom like Yeah, no yeah, no let’s let’s separate from like what feels noisy today because you know, as you mentioned, you said at the top of the show America has a short term memory. Sure do! Sure do! Things take receipt, paper receipt, everything passes. And so what’s the through line that you want to tell? And so I think about that a lot. And to your other point, history keeps receipts, even my own personal history, my personal history will have receipts of the choices I’ve made. Now, when I’m 49. And when I’m 54, and when I’m 61, and I want to make sure that those receipts are the ones I want to write.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah, so good. So good.

Latasha Morrison
I think about that song all the time, in Hamilton, where it says “History has his eyes on you”, you know, and I think there’s so much that we can learn from that. And what you just said, was just poignant, like, what receipts do, I want to keep, like, you know, and so I think about that, and that’s to go on power. So it’s easy to give up to give in and to give in to despair. But that is not going to resolve, you know, anything, but it is okay. For some of us, you know, sometimes we need a timeout, sometimes we got to get on the sidelines to catch our breath. But the plan is to get back into the game. So that’s going to happen, and so we’re gonna get tired, we’re going to need people to kind of hold our arms up and keep it going while we you know, regain our strength. And I think that’s, that’s okay, but we just have to keep playing, we have to keep playing. And we have to stay the course. You’ve launched a lot of books, you were very instrumental and helping me navigate this publishing world. This is going to be book two. Can you believe it? I keep saying it. I keep saying that, I wrote a whole book, like I know, I know. So it, you know, it just even with the title, you know, you know, Brown Faces, White Space is like, that’s, that’s, that is the world in which a lot of us live. And, you know, talking about systemic racism, something that a lot of people deny, that is actually true and real, which is unfathomable to me. When we have people living, when we’re looking at our current systems now. But we know that there’s a blindness, what, you’ve lost a lot of books, and you’ve done a lot of things. How would you say – I have a hard time celebrating, like, milestones I’m on to the next thing. The next thing

Jen Hatmaker
I’m an enneagram three!

Jen Hatmaker
I’m five miles down the road before I’ve even put the brakes on where I’m at. Like, it’s one of my kind of spiritual practices to figure out, okay, how to be grateful. Celebrate a moment when it’s happening, because I am the same way.

Latasha Morrison
So help me out. What are you learning with that? Because you’re the same way? How do we, you know, what do we do do to celebrate? When when things like this happen, you know, especially in the midst of all the brokenness is still happening. It’s kind of hard to celebrate…

Jen Hatmaker
Totally here in 2024. Everything’s on fire. Yeah. But it always this, like, there’s always a relevant and reasonable reason that we could say, “I don’t have time to celebrate. This is too urgent, we are in a crisis”. That will never end. Literally there will, we will always be too busy. There will always be too much going on. There’s always cause for alarm, unfortunately. And so we could, there’s a pretty easy list we can grab from if we’re wanting to get out of of gratefulness, of celebration of milestone like acknowledgement. I learned this best probably from my friend Sarah Bessie, who is so good , she’s a nine like you. And she is so good at this. And so this is boring, like this is very low hanging fruit. Like I’m not about to tell you something that interesting, fancy like tactic to figure out how to be present in the day, the daily lives. But one thing I just learned from her is that she’s done this for years, just years and years and years, and I always watch it like this, how we do it. She’ll just say it out loud. She’ll say it to my ears. She’ll write it in her spaces. She’ll be like, this is just, this was so good. I’m so proud of this. She says words like this. I’m so proud of this work. This is such an honor Honor, I’m so grateful for my readers. This is just such a beautiful day. I’m like, oh my god, we just say it like that. Like, we just say it to each other. We, we write it down, and something about, you know, I think you and I both think this words are powerful and words, call forth, powerful realities, and we create them with our sentences. And so there is something as like, low touch as simply forcing yourself to say out loud, with your words to yourself, to your team, to your community, to your social media community. Guys, this one costs a lot. I’m proud of it, what a day, like one day, thank you for helping me birth this baby into the world. SSo in somehow you start believing yourself. Like, all of a sudden, you start feeling that and so you have every reason to just hoist yourself up and be like, That’s it. Everybody is off work today. It’s party time! It is a labor, your work is particularly laborious, not just not just physically, of course, writing a book is so physically demanding. But emotionally, spiritually, socially. Yeah. And so, I am so proud of you. And if you’re like, can you believe but number two, I’m like, let’s talk about let’s – I look forward to this conversation when we’re on Book number seven, like –

Latasha Morrison
Oh my goodness!

Jen Hatmaker
Oh, let’s just keep going! You’re gonna keep going!

Latasha Morrison
You’re speaking life. I love it. I love it. I am so I am so grateful for you, Jen, I am so appreciative of bravery and your courage. I also value your honesty, and your authenticity. And it is never missed upon me, you know, and just know, I know, you have my back. And you know, I have your back. And I’m so grateful. And we can we can stand in the midst of that, you know, with everything, all the difficulties to this happening this going on. And thank you for cheering me on. Know that I’m cheering you on. Oprah!

Jen Hatmaker
Our 95 selves are going to be like – my sisters were like, “don’t you dare take a shower. Before we get to like touch, wherever Oprah touched you.” I’m like, I know! I know!

Latasha Morrison
The first thing, like I’m gonna be I’m gonna be real. We’re gonna keep it real. I was like, what does she smell like?

Jen Hatmaker
That’s what my sisters asked me! What did she smell like? And I said magic. Like magic?

Latasha Morrison
Doesoe she wear Delena? Or was she wearing Creed? Right?

Jen Hatmaker
She was perfection.

Latasha Morrison
You looked great. I saw. Listen, you know, I pay attention to all the things. The black dress with the green shoes popping. That’s the first thing I noticed. I said, the green shoes, the green shoes!

Jen Hatmaker
I was just trying to impress Oprah, it was my only goal.

Latasha Morrison
Well, thank you so much for coming on. And celebrating this milestone and just catching us up. You know, what is something that you can give us a little sneak peek of something you’re working on.

Jen Hatmaker
I’m so proud of you. I’m so excited for this. Thank you for by the way, always coming into my community. I had your other book in my book club. You came in and did training for my entire book club community. They’re still talking about that. You’ve just right like the grant round where we voted. Be the Bridge seed money was the easiest check we ever wrote.

Latasha Morrison
Like we got it twice!

Jen Hatmaker
My community loves you and respect you so much. And you have served my community. And so I just you know, I’m team you forever. Let’s see a fun thing that I’m working on. Is graduating my last five kids in two weeks. That’s a fun thing I’m working on. That’s it, man. Te ship’s about sail!

Latasha Morrison
She’s a senior! Yeah!

Jen Hatmaker
A senior. That’s it. We’ve done it. We’ve done it. I’m like holy- moly. I got five kids through high school like where’s my parade? Where is my prize?

Latasha Morrison
And let’s just let’s just let’s just sit it there. Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker
I’m gonna sit and celebrate. I’m gonna say it out loud. I raised five kids to adulthood. It’s no joke.

Latasha Morrison
And she’s driving!

Latasha Morrison
And everything and I just –

Jen Hatmaker
She’s a beauty!

Latasha Morrison
I saw her – she’s getting braids and just gorgeous. And she’s still really tall. She was really tall, the last I saw.

Jen Hatmaker
She’s stunning. She is stunning. Has no idea. When I tell you, she has no idea. I promise you, she has no idea. She is just a stunning person inside and out. And so –

Latasha Morrison
Congratulations.

Jen Hatmaker
Thank you. I’m excited. I’m excited for me.

Speaker 1
Well celebrate, celebrate, celebrate, celebrate. And just know that, you know, my friend, she lost all of hers. And they’ll all be back for the summer. And she said her grocery bill. She said, You know what she said, I think this these years are tougher. Because she was like, they’re adults. And so you know, they just can’t, they won’t just do what you say. You know, it’s like, they have their own mindsets

Jen Hatmaker
But also, “what’s for dinner?”

Latasha Morrison
Exactly! They’re gonna be more demanding and your house, but you’re still in my house.

Jen Hatmaker
It’s so true.

Latasha Morrison
Congratulations.

Jen Hatmaker
Thank you

Latasha Morrison
Enjoy every moment.

Jen Hatmaker
Okay, thank you! Love you so much!

Latasha Morrison
1973, I entered this world at Cape Fear Valley Hospital in Fayetteville, North Carolina. I was born fully American. And as a citizen, I have the right to free education, to free speech to property ownership when I reached the age of 18, to vote, also when I turned 18, and to hold public office one day. But as obvious as all of this might sound aren’t all Americans born with those inalienable rights. I was the first person in my immediate Morrison family tree to be born under the full protections of the United States Constitution. Those who know me might be shocked by the statement, because I’m not that old. I look even younger than my driver’s license says, I am 49 years old as of the writing of this book. But as we’ll see, throughout the pages, African Americans born just a generation before me, didn’t grow up with the same set of rights and protections. And the effects of racism still linger today. Black and Brown Brothers and sisters, I see you nodding. Some Americans may think of systemic racism as an unfortunate part of history, something that happened back in the day. It was a fixture in the time of black and white television. But many Black and Brown Americans know through firsthand experiences, that systemic racism still exists today. Because the systems were never truly dismantled in our country. How do we know? Because we’ve heard and live those stories. We’ve had our perspective shaped by both history and experience, the stories of the past and our experiences in the present, shape, who we are and how we move in this world. They continue to shape my expectations, my fears, and my hopes for a better future for my nieces and nephews. I’ll share numerous stories and experiences in this book. But let me start with the story of my parents. My dad was born in North Carolina, and the time was state sanctioned. Racial apartheid was baked into the state’s Jim Crow laws, laws that maintain strict public separation between whites and non whites. As a young boy in 1952, he was shut out of the better schools in and around his hometown of Fayetteville and sent to black only schools and black only red line districts drawn by white legislators. The United States Supreme Court had long since declared in the 1896 case of Plessy versus Ferguson, that segregation laws were enforceable. So long as the facilities provided to ethnic minorities were separate but equal. Yet the schools my dad attended or anything but equal. The facilities were rundown, and understaffed, and the teachers, most of whom were black or underpaid. Students were not given current textbooks, or even educational materials. These realities would not change for many schools in the American South, even after the 1954 Supreme Court ruling in Brown versus the Board of Education ended school segregation. See Chapter Two for more information on this. My mom was not a stranger to discrimination and systemic racism either. Though, her experiences were very different from my dad’s. She was a military kid and her her dad, my grandfather, whom I discussed in chapters two and six, moved from one base to another. This gave her an international educational experience and military schools, which were mostly desegregated. When she was in high school, her class was the first to integrate at 71st High School in Fayetteville, North Carolina, in 1968. Though integration wasn’t easy, my mom navigated it helped in part by the education she received in her earlier years. Though my mom had better educational experience then, my dad, her family still felt the brunt of systemic racism. Many men of color fought bravely for their country in World War Two, the Korean War and the Vietnam War. And yet, a disproportionate number of them died for their country, often with little recognition. Though the military was desegregated, in 1948 by President Harry S. Truman, equal pay for Black and Brown military members was little more than a pipe dream well into the 1980s and 1990s. Non white service members were often given less desirable post, which meant lower wages, men of color didn’t advance to the military ranks as quickly or as far as their white counterparts either. So my mom and her family endured a military environment that treated men like my grandfather, as if they were second class service members, both in pay and in their assignments. The stories of my immediate families of experience of racism, were not the only thing that shaped me. Years ago, my aunt Lynn shared the story about my great uncle, Willie Jr. My mother’s uncle, who passed away before I had the chance to know him. As a young man, he migrated to New York City sometime in the 1950s. To escape the racial terror of Jim Crow laws. He’d had enough of pretending to be docile, even when being called boy or worse by white people. So he was one of the 1000s, who made the move in hopes of finding a better way of life, and job opportunities beyond sharecropping are serving as the house servant. However, much to his dismay, he was greeted in northern states with what some called James Crow laws, laws that, while not as draconian as the Jim Crow segregation laws in the south, still disadvantaged, non white people. So imagine the rage he must have felt when he realized the conditions in the North were not that much better. Imagine his anger when he realized white systems are the same, no matter where you go. After living in the North for some time, my great uncle, whom we affectionately called Uncle Brother, returned home to visit my great grandfather, Willie Nicholson, an illiterate southern black man who worked as a country sharecropper, port, laborer, and railroad hand in an effort to create a better way for his children. My great grandfather endured insults being called every name in the book. I’m sure he took a beating or two along the way. He was trained not to look into the eyes of a white man not to walk on the same side of the sidewalk, and to call every white person Mr. or Mrs. Regardless of the age, though, my great grandfather was a land owner. He had inherited 20 acres of farmland from his mom, who had received a portion of land where her mother, Sally McQueen was enslaved. Over the years, my great uncle had watched as his father, my great grandfather, fought to retain ownership of his land. He saw white people pull out forged these for the property, hoping to steal it from his father. My great uncle discovered that his father had to hire a lawyer, so he wouldn’t lose the land. The system was stacked against black men, and my great uncle knew it. So while visiting his father, my great uncle heard him call a white gas station attendant, sir, and he lost it. When they climb back in the car, he exploded, telling my great grandfather, to stop being so polite to all the white men who mistreated him for so many years. As the family story goes, my great uncle tore into to his father. They ain’t no Sirs or MRS he yell. It is said that my great grandfather didn’t yell back, but simply replied that a black man living in the South has to make some concessions. As to get along and survive. That was that. My great grandfather learn to put on a polite face and call the white men of his community, sir, as his small concession for survival. By doing so, he gotten into less trouble than many of his other black friends, and he enjoyed a little more prosperity too. Times have changed, or at least they’ve been rebranded. Schools celebrate Black History Month. Though, as of the writing of this book, some Public Schools restrict the teaching of black history, claiming that it’s “woke”, or Marxist. Companies have diversity and inclusion committees, but even so, as you’ll see throughout this book, there are still many spaces where people of color are silenced, underrepresented, and underserved. And you’ll meet a black military member who was told he was too intimidating, that he should tone it down. You’ll meet a professional athlete, who was blackballed by the National Football League for standing against racism. You’ll learn about people of color who were arrested for sitting in a restaurant, you’ll see the way systems of racism are woven into the modern fabric of American life. As a result, even a modern America where slavery and Jim Crow had been abolished, many BIPOC continue to do just what my great grandfather did. They go along to get along.

Narrator
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge podcast. To find out more about the Be the Bridge organization and or to become a bridge builder in your community. Go to be the bridge.com Again, that’s the the bridge.com If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, remember to rate and review it on this platform and share it with as many people as you possibly can. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Today’s show was edited, recorded and produced by Trayvon Potts at integrated entertainment studios in metro Atlanta, Georgia. The host and executive producer is Latasha Morrison and Lauren C Brown is the Senior Producer and transcribed by Sarah Connatser.

Narrator
Please join us next time. This has been a Be the Bridge Production