Ep 278 | The First Nations Version with Terry Wildman and featuring Mariah Humphries

Narrator
You are listening to the Be the Bridge Podcast with Latasha Morrison.

Latasha Morrison
[intro] How are you guys doing today? It’s exciting!

Narrator
Each week, Be the Bridge Podcast tackles subjects related to race and culture with the goal of bringing understanding.

Latasha Morrison
[intro] …but I’m gonna do it in the spirit of love.

Narrator
We believe understanding can move us toward racial healing, racial equity, and racial unity. Latasha Morrison is the founder of Be the Bridge, which is an organization responding to racial brokenness and systemic injustice in our world. This podcast is an extension of our vision to make sure people are no longer conditioned by a racialized society, but grounded in truth. If you have not hit the subscribe button, please do so now. Without further ado, let’s begin today’s podcast. Oh, and stick around for some important information at the end.

Latasha Morrison
Okay, welcome Be the Bridge community. We had no idea this was planned, but the Supreme Court just made a ruling as it relates to the ICWA, and we were actually planning to address this in our cultural views. So we’re gonna just kind of pause on what we’re gonna do today. And we want to make sure that we address this. And I have Mr. Terry Wildman and Mariah Humphries here. And so I just want them to introduce themselves both in their Native tongue and language, and I just wanted to get your thoughts on it. And I can explain…actually, you can explain what it is. I don’t need to explain it. You can explain what it is, and tell the people what you think and why this is so significant today. So I’m gonna just turn it over to you and I just want to listen to what you have to say.

Terry Wildman
I would love to have Mariah take it from here.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah.

Mariah Humphries
Absolutely. [greeting in Mvskoke]. My name is Mariah, and I’m a citizen of Mvskoke Nation. And I’m also on the team of Be the Bridge. I’m the Director of Marketing and Innovation. And yeah, it’s, I’m kind of at a loss for words, which I’m not too often at a loss for words. But I’m really excited about the ruling that came down today, mainly because it is so important for Tribal Sovereignty. ICWA is the Indian Child Welfare Act that was established in 1978. Coming out a long history that we face as Native Americans where there’s been a continual attack on our children in our next generations. And so from the boarding school era, so like, you know, anywhere from 1819 on there’s been this continual attack on our children and our language and our culture. And this is just a huge, it’s a huge win for us as a collective people. But I think it also is a huge win for a country that seems to continue to try to, you know, find itself and find some grounding. And it’s something that is, it’s just huge for this court at this time to be able to stand so strongly. I mean, a seven-two count is pretty strong in this court in favor of Indigeneity and Tribal Sovereignty is just really, it’s a big, it’s a big day. There’s a lot of emotions, it’s a win for child welfare in general. But it’s significant within Tribal Nations, and just that protection of our next generation under protection of our most vulnerable and those who rely on us to take care of them. And it’s yeah. It’s a huge day. I was telling them right before we jumped on here that my makeup is all gone. I’ve had a few little water work moments come through, but it’s just, it’s huge. We would be remiss not to mention this, and it’s it’s big. So Terry, I mean, you can you can also share your thoughts. I don’t want to overdo it because I have a lot of thoughts. But yes, please share.

Terry Wildman
Okay, well, I’ll introduce myself. [greeting in Ojibwe] So what I said was, “Hello, my friends who share this life together with me,” in Ojibwe, I said, “My name is Terry Wildman.” I was born and raised in Michigan. I didn’t say that, but I’ll add this to it. I was born and raised in Michigan. My ancestry includes Ojibwe from Ontario, Canada, Yaqui from Sonora, Mexico as well as English, German, and Spaniard. I’m married to Darlene Wildman. I have five children, eight grandchildren, three great grandchildren. My wife and I currently live in Maricopa, Arizona, on the traditional lands of the Tohono O’odham and the Pima. So it feels really good to be with with you here today with all your listeners. You know, this is amazing that this has happened. I wish my friend, Kimberlee Medicine Horn Jackson, she grew up in Ohio, she is Lakota. And when she was a baby, her parents thought they were just simply putting her in foster care. And they signed the documents, actually, for her adoption. And so she was raised, the family was lied to. And she was raised by non Native people, by white people in Ohio. But she has reconnected to her family, but I wish she was here because I know she would have some amazing thoughts about this truly a victory.

Latasha Morrison
Maybe we can get her on. Maybe we can talk to her if she’s interested.

Terry Wildman
Yeah, she would be someone really good to talk about especially this thing because of her personal involvement in what happened in her family, in her own life, and how it’s formed her and shaped her in so many ways. But also, in the long run with the help of Creator, good has come into her life. Good has come out of this, because she’s become a voice. A voice that can tell the story. And that’s what needs to happen. If it wasn’t for the storytellers that told their stories here, this wouldn’t have happened. It takes people willing to be bold enough to say, to tell the truth, to speak truth to power, to do all those things that we keep doing over and over and over again. And sometimes get criticized for like, “Don’t you ever get over it?”

Latasha Morrison
Yeah.

Terry Wildman
Well, you know, it’s still affecting us today. So, all these things. You know, people think, “Well, that happened a long time ago.” It wasn’t that long ago, and the effects still are rippling through time, and affecting all of us today in so many ways. So all I can say is, I am amazed. Seven to two vote is wonderful. I think there will be celebrations. I would love to see what other, what most of the Tribes are saying, what the responses are from the elders and the people and everything. So, I applaud this with everyone here today.

Latasha Morrison
I’m grateful to be able to share in this with you today because we had no idea. I know it was something we have been praying about. And Mariah has been keeping us abreast. And, you know, I feel like this is like when you win I feel like I won. And I think that’s what solidarity is all about us knowing each other’s story then sharing in that story, sharing in the pain, but also sharing in the joy. So I feel like overwhelmed with joy, because I know the importance it is for your community. And so being able to understand that, knowing a lot of the history that I’ve read, just, you know, even recently, just seeing some, I think it was a Yellowstone show that is highlighting some of the Indigenous boarding school stories by the Catholic Church. I mean, it’s horrific. And so if you understand the history and the context, that’s why it’s so important to know our history, you’ll understand the joys that people have today because of how families were impacted and separated because of the laws of our land. So that’s something to celebrate today. There’s a lot of things, there’s a lot of chaos happening around us, but it’s good to take a pause and say, “Yay God!” in this. (laughter) So it’s great. So we have you guys both here today. And I just want to talk about, we’re going to talk about the First Nations version of the Bible. And Mariah is going to ask some questions, we have a list of questions here. I’m grateful for this. I love the titles of all the books. I love the titles and the creativity. But just so that you guys that are listening to the Be the Bridge Podcast, welcome, thank you for tuning in. Today we have a special treat with Terry Wildman and Mariah Humphries, who are of their Indigenous communities. And I’m gonna have them reintroduce themselves again. But I just wanted to let you know what we’re going to talk about today, we’re going to talk about the First Nations Bible. And if you haven’t heard about it, you’re gonna hear about it today. This is a retelling of Creator’s Story—the Scriptures— following the tradition of the storytellers of these oral cultures. Many First Nations tribes communicate with the cultural and linguistic thought patterns found in their original tongues. This way of speaking with this simple yet profound beauty and rich cultural idioms still resonates in the hearts of First Nations people. The FNV is a dynamic equivalence translation that captures the simplicity, clarity, and beauty of Native storytellers in English, while remaining faithful to the original language of the New Testament. Whether you are Native or not, you will experience the scriptures in a fresh new way. And I would, listen. I am a witness to that. If you read this, it is still the Bible, but it’s just written in a beautiful language. And you see culture is so beautiful. And that’s why we can’t just have this really myopic view of God and culture and language. You know? That God is present in all culture and language, and the creator of that. And so you get another glimpse of who God is when you look at other cultures and language. And I think you get reminded of that when you’re reading the First Nations Bible. And so I’m grateful to have Mariah here. You know, as she’s on our Be the Bridge team over marketing and communications and innovation, and actually the editor of the First Nations Bible, who is Mr. Terry Wildman, and he is the lead translator, general editor, and the project manager of the First Nations Version. You’ve been busy. He serves as the Director of Spiritual Growth and Leadership Development for Native InterVarsity. He is also the founder of Rain Ministries, and has previously served as a pastor and worship leader. He and his wife, Darlene live in Arizona. So, welcome! I want you guys just to introduce yourselves again. So that we’ll have it for this. And we’ll just jump in.

Mariah Humphries
Well, [introduction in Mvskoke] My name is Mariah. And in Mvskoke, we do not say, “How are you today?” We say, “We hope that your body is doing well today.” Basically, we’re glad that you’re here today. And I am a citizen of Mvskoke Nation. I’m also German, Scotish, and Czech. So I’ve got a bit of diversity going on there. But yeah, I’m part of the Be the Bridge staff and one of the voices of Native Americanness, I imagine and just kind of bring forth some of the topics and history that Native Americans have faced, continue to face, and some of the triumphs and some of the current crises that we’re struggling through. And Be the Bridge centers the voices of the marginalized, which I’m so grateful for. Tasha puts forward that she is always a student of other people. She’s like so, “Teach me some of these things that I don’t know, let’s teach others. Let’s always be a student of one another.” And so she has been a big advocate for the voice of Native Americans within Be the Bridge. So I’m so grateful. And to be here today with Terry Wildman. I’m also a bit of a fan girl today, so I’m going to keep that under wraps. Keep that cool. Maybe, maybe. But just super grateful that there are Indigenous voices out there that are speaking on our behalf and in our own circles of influence, but also on the broader. And so to be able to kind of walk through a bit of the background of this New Testament is just it’s going to be pretty amazing. So Mvto, thank you for having me here today.

Terry Wildman
I’m going to do an introduction in Ojibwe that was taught me. I do not speak our language.

Latasha Morrison
Okay.

Terry Wildman
But I did memorize this introduction and I trust that I will speak it in a way that honors the Anishinaabe people. [introduction in Ojibwe] So what I said was, “Hello, my friends who share this life together with me.” My Indian name or Spirit name is, that was given to me by my mentors, is Gitchi Animiki Meno Mashkiki Manido which translates to Voice of Great Thunder with a Good Medicine Spirit. And I also said it feels good to be here in this space with you today and with everyone. And I mean that from my heart; I really do. So I was born and raised in Michigan. My ancestry includes Ojibwe from Ontario, Canada, the Yaqui from Sonora, Mexico, as well as English, German and Spaniard. I’m married to Darlene Wildman. I have five children, eight grandchildren, three great grandchildren. My wife and I currently live in Maricopa, Arizona on the traditional lands of the Tohono O’odham and the Pima. I also serve as, as you said, I serve with Native InterVarsity. Native InterVarsity works with Native students on campuses all across Turtle Island, which is what we call North America. And, you know, I find myself in a place, you know, that I didn’t expect to be in. I didn’t expect to be a person of influence the way things have turned out. But I guess doing this First Nation Version, kind of changed things. But the good thing was I had years and years and years of traveling and visiting and experiencing all our different, so many of our different Native peoples culture around North America. You know, we’re not just one people, we’re at a diverse collection of all kinds of languages and traditions and taboos and everything. And, you know, in some ways, you know, people think, “Well, how could you have one English translation for all those tribes?” And I say, “Well, you know, colonialism gave us all the same language. Okay?” So now I want to make this language serve our people, instead of hinder our people or be forced on our people. Maybe we can turn this around, maybe we can use it in a good way, and bring good out of this mess that has been created. And so I’m, I’m glad to be here with you today. I hope I can answer all the questions you might ask.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah. It’s been a lot. You know, I really love to see other communities, other groups that have been marginalized by our society, you know, uplifted, and not just in the month that we choose to celebrate. I like when this happens 365 days of the year. Because we represent our communities 365 days of the year. And I, Mariah and I had just watched The Culture Is: Indigenous Women, like last week. And I was just, you know, looking at, there was so much diversity even within the community. There were some that were from Alaska, some people that were from Seattle, and just like, you know, you said that, like your heritage goes back to Canada. And Mariah is, I think, Oklahoma. Mariah? Yeah, Oklahoma. And so just that richness. And I love the display of that, and I love the display of this, and even how you both introduce yourselves, so that people can see there’s diversity within the Native Nations. So that, you know, we understand that it’s just not one group, it’s just not one racial group. You know? And that’s what we do. Just like, you know, as so many other ethnic groups. There’s a lot of diversity in the Asian community. There’s a lot of diversity within the Latine community. There’s a lot of complexity in the African American community because of the Atlantic slave trade. So I’m just grateful to have you guys here. I wanted to talk a little bit about just the need for this. And thank you for doing this work. You know. Thank you for not giving up. And I know, probably the push that had to occur to get something like this. Because this is going to be here. I love when a book is done, you know, you can say, like, it’s written, and this is going to be here; and it will remain. When we’re no longer here, this is going to be here. And someone, you know, 60 years from now can be reconnected with their history and their culture because of the faithfulness of you and so many others that contributed to this. So thank you for that. When you first envisioned this, what were you dreaming would happen? Like, what, what? How did this come to be? And then I’m gonna let Mariah take the next question. We’ll just go back and forth. Okay, Mariah?

Terry Wildman
Well, for me, I never expected that I would be translating the New Testament in the way we have. It just started out very simply as a desire to share Jesus in a cultural, relevant manner. I was serving at that time with a mission organization. I was going through my own deconstruction, of understanding what’s happened with Christianity in America, and how it has, how did what was supposed to be good news turn into such bad news for our Native people. And, so I was going through my own hard time with that, and also working with individuals who were, you know, very European Western thinkers. And so, we would, you know, we had been invited into, say, into the Hopi jail, and we did meetings with some of the men and women in there to share Jesus there. And, I just, I kind of watched the whole process. And I kept thinking, “We’re not connecting, we’re not connecting. Something’s missing here. This isn’t working the way it should.” And I knew that because the men and women weren’t, they were saying what they thought we wanted to hear. And Native people, you know, Native people are very accommodating people in so many ways. You know? I mean, you know, if you ever go to a Powwow you’ll be welcomed there. You know, just be careful to listen to the emcee and do what he says, and don’t take pictures when you shouldn’t, and, you know, don’t wander to places that you’re not invited to. So, anyway, to say, to say this, I started working with this idea of that came to me from a little paperback, New Testament. I think it was called The Jesus Way or something New Testament. And it had, you know, like, so many of the Bibles that have been used to share Jesus with Native people, they put a nice Indian cover on it. Okay? Beautiful artwork and everything like that, but you open it up, usually, it’s the same old westernized thinking, wording, everything on the inside. But this one had an introduction. And I knew some of the people, the Native people had wrote an introduction to a Bible called the NIrV, the New International Readers Version, which is very low reading level Bible. Almost, I mean, so low, like third, fourth grade. You know? And that made me feel bad, like why do they think they have to give a third, fourth grade reading level on it? But the introduction I thought was wonderful. It introduced the Jesus way, the walking the road with Jesus. It used Creator instead of God. And it was just so, those seem like little things, but they become huge in the way they’re shared. And so what happened was, I said, “Well, I love this introduction. Why isn’t the rest of the Bible just, you know, presented this way?” And then I learned as I moved from this mission organization to pastoring a church, 100 year old church on the Hopi rez up on Second Mesa. And I found a Hopi Bible. We weren’t using it in the churches, none of the churches were using the Hopi Bibles that were translated into the Hopi language. And I found one and I got all excited. I thought, “Oh, look, let’s start reading this in church.” And when I asked the elders of the church if they could read it during the church time, they all said, they shook their heads. “We can’t read our language.” And I realized that the government assimilation policies that stripped us of our languages and our culture, do you think they were going to teach us in those boarding schools how to read our language? So, all these Bibles that were translated, aren’t being read in our original tongues, our languages. And so, and I’m all for it. I think we should have it in our languages. And I’m, all for Native people reclaiming our languages and learning our languages, learning how to t read them, even developing our own way of reading that’s non westernized symbols and things like that. I’m all for that. But that’s a ways down the road. And for a lot of our Native people today, English is the only language we speak. Most of our Native people are speaking English, the colonial language. So I started with this idea of, “Well, I’m just going to work with some of the guys and in the jail ministry. And I’m going to reword scriptures.” I mean, here I am, I was a pastor, I’ve done my basic studies; I know the Bible pretty well; I was pretty safe rewording things. And so I would just, you know, instead of God, I’d use Creator or Great Spirit. I would begin to use really focus on the different words, like even kingdom of God, like kingdom? That reminds me of England; that reminds me of the British; that reminds me of colonialism. Why would I want that kind of God? Or kingdom? Why would I want something that’s just going to control and rule over you and tell you that none of your culture is any good? But anyway, I started rewording it. And I sat with some of the the men in the jail in different places. And, I began to read to them in English, these reworded portions of Scripture. And suddenly they came alive. They said, “Oh, I like that.” And so I said, “Well, can you help me? I’d like to do a few more verses. Can you guys help me reword them?” And what that created was this, oh, to reword them I got to figure out what it’s saying first. And then I’ll reword it for our Native people or our Hopi way or our Navajo way. And so we had Hopis and Navajos and Lakota people. And I tell you what, I’ll tell you this, the jail, the Hopi jail thing was really bad. Because most 90% of people, maybe 98%, I don’t know, of the Hopis and Native people in that jail were only there because they got caught drinking. And it was against the law to drink on the reservation. You know? And so they’re not criminals. My goodness. You know? But, it was a place where we could talk, where we could share, where they were so bored they said, “Well, I might as well go hear about Jesus, you know, I’m so bored here.” And, so I began to work with him and it just started working. And so I just kept doing more and more of these rewordings with help from other Native people and things like that.

Terry Wildman
And eventually, my wife and I finished our time at Hopi, and we felt like Creator was calling us to the road. So, we for 10 years we traveled on the road and sharing, my wife and I are musicians, artists, we write songs. And that was one of the things, too, that helped with this process was in the songwriting…you talk, this podcast is called Be the Bridge. Well our songwriting I would consider our songs bridge music.

Latasha Morrison
Okay.

Terry Wildman
It’s music to bridge the cultures.

Latasha Morrison
Yeah.

Terry Wildman
And you know music is so powerful. It transcends culture, it transcends the differences in people. And so, and I love how music, if you really study music and see how it’s developed, cultures have shared their music with each other and blended music together and come out with all kinds of new stuff because of the way they blended it together. And, I thought, “Wow, we need to do this as Native people.” How many churches could you go to and hear songs written by Native artists that had a feel in it of our Native way of singing and everything? And so, I began to share, as we traveled on the road, I began to share these verses that we had reworded. And everywhere we went, we visited Native churches, all across Turtle Island. And over and over again, elders would come after we would share. My wife would play the flute, Native flute, and I would read the scriptures in between our songs. But I wouldn’t say it was scripture. I just told it like a story. And someone, I remember one Native lady said, “What Bible were you reading from?” And I said, “Well, I wasn’t. These are just reworded scriptures.” “Well, there needs to be a Bible like this,” she said. And another elder said, “You’re saying it in English the way we think it in our language.” And I was like, that was what I was hoping to do. I was hoping to be able to capture, you know, some of our Native phrasing into English, our Native way of thinking into the English language. And they said it was working. And over and over again, I kept getting asked. And finally, that’s what led to, I did research. I tried to find a Bible out there in English that was translated for our Native people, could not find one anywhere. No one had done this and I thought, “Oh, no.”

AD BREAK

Terry Wildman
So I went to this meeting on the Torres Martinez Indian Reservation in Southern California. We had a meeting of a bunch of Native and non Native people coming together to talk about this whole issue of reconciliation. And while I was there, some of them had heard some of my rewordings and asked me to share them in the meeting with Darlene playing the flute. And yeah, we shared it. And then I said, “Would you guys pray that God will raise up somebody to do this? That God will speak to somebody.” They pray over me, and they say, “Well, Terry, we think God’s speaking to you.” (laughter) And so I didn’t, you know, I just, I felt like Abraham. God’s telling me to go somewhere, I have no idea where I’m going. Who’s gonna listen to me? Terry Wildman, who’s not even a professionally trained Bible translator. You know? All I know, is I know how to use Logos Bible software. I know how to delve into the Hebrew and Greek. I know how to, you know, to do that. I just needed more, you know, more help. And so the first thing we did, I hope my story is not going too long here.

Latasha Morrison
No it’s good! I’m listening. It’s great.

Terry Wildman
The first thing we did, Darlene and I, when we were still living on Hopi, was we did a CD. Because we’re musicians, we recorded a CD. And I had written out a story from creation to Christ, to his resurrection, kind of telling the story of the Bible, but I was using this new phrasing this new way, this kind of Native style English. Whatever you want to call it, you know, we don’t Have terminology for it, because it was something new. And except that Black Elk books, you can read those, and you can read Chief Joseph and read the way they spoke English, and you get a little bit more of the feel. Because we even used their words in this translation. But also, I’ll say that it came to a point where we did the CD. And we did music in the background, I was the narrator. And we submitted it to the Native American Music Awards, to NAMA. And we won Best Spoken Word in 2008. So the whole story of Jesus told in a Native way on a CD, won the Native American Music Award for Best Spoken Word. And I thought, “Wow! This is something, I think Creator is opening hearts.” And that became the our best selling CD online. I would get emails from Native parents who put their kids to get to bed listening to the story, you know, and everything. So eventually it led to me saying, “Okay, I’ll do this, God.” And we had done the CD. We did a Christmas story book, just as a test, The Birth of the Chosen One. It did really well self published. We did another book called When the Great Spirit Walked Among Us. And that’s still out there. But that’s self published. It’s just the four Gospels, put in one story. And then in 2015, I started working on the translation. I had built a website, a Facebook page. Most of our income came from traveling and honorariums and love offerings and things like that. So now I was going to have to stay off the road and work on this. And so we had to raise some money. But it came! We let people know what we’re doing. And I remember what really kicked me in the butt on this was the, we had some friends and they called us up. And they said, “Well, I understand you need to do this book, The Great Story from the Sacred Book. We’d love to support you in this. How much do you need for six months to stay home, to support you for six months?” And they gave it to us. One check for six months. So that gave you know you, a little bit by little bit support started coming in. So I just kept working on it. And in 2015, I settled in to do Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, after we had pre published these other books. And it was April 1. What’s April 1st?

Latasha Morrison
April Fool’s Day. (laughter)

Terry Wildman
I get this email from somebody who says they’re the CEO of a Bible translation organization in Canada. And this person, his name is Wayne Johnson. He said, “I found your website by accident. I was searching for some other Terry. And I used the word Terry and Bible translation, and boom, and Native American, and boom your website came up. And your Facebook page came up. And I’ve talked to some of our people here at One Book,” that was the name of the translation. One Book, they were doing 37 translations in Africa. And the funny thing is, the person who was the head of Wycliffe, Canada, Dave Olson, had founded One Book on a different kind of philosophy, the philosophy was, the missionary shouldn’t be doing the translation. The Indigenous people need to do the translation. And I liked that. And they said, and so this guy said, well, I spoke with him on the phone. It turned out that, that it was God’s fool. You know, I’m a fool for Jesus. (laughter) Because God says on April Fool’s Day he connects me to this group. And they committed, we partnered with them, our ministry Rain Ministries, they committed to supporting us, getting behind us, bringing, helping us to form a translation council and funding us coming together in different places. Like in Canada, we came together for two weeks, our whole group. They funded everything. Down in Florida, we came together with Wycliffe Associates. And, we looked at what group translation might be, and we were trying to figure out, “How are we going to do this?” We’re so spread out. We have Navajos and we have Choctaws, we have Cherokee, and we have Hopi. And we have all these different tribes, some East Coast tribes, the Muskogee. I mean, you can read a list that we’ve had of all the different people involved in this translation and in different tribal groups. But we’re geographically spread out. It’s not like we’re a little African village that can come together and work together on it. So we used Google Docs.

Latasha Morrison
Oh, wow.

Terry Wildman
You know, we’re modern Indians, right? Google Docs. And, we could all work together, even though we were far apart. And after we established the initial wording for about 200 different words, how we would translate that into English in a Native way. We went to work. It took us five years. And, you know, it seems like, no matter what you do for Creator, there’s always challenges. And so it shouldn’t have taken five years, we probably could have done it faster. But I was trying to pastor a church at the same time I was doing this. And I ended up being the lead translator. And then we had all our Native reviewers who would go through what I did, and make suggestions here and there. “Oh, don’t say it that way. Say it this way.” You know, so as we went along it, I got better and better at it because I got all this feedback. You know? And then they pretty soon they’re just going, “Okay, that sounds good. They sign off on it.” And that’s how we did it. In the middle of it. Believe it or not, I had a heart attack. Right in the middle of the translation. But I recovered from it. And that’s where I realized I couldn’t pastor the church and do the translation. So we decided to, we were in Michigan at the time pastoring a small Native church in northern Michigan. And so we came back to Arizona and get away from that snow. And I tell you what, it came together quickly. And InterVarsity Press loved it. I started working with Native InterVarsity. They became, the Native InterVarsity staff and Native students had feedback into this translation. And they they tested it out at one of their big Would Jesus Eat Frybread? That’s the name of the conference – Would Jesus Eat Frybread?

Mariah Humphries
Yes, he would.

Terry Wildman
We have that conference every couple of years, we’ve had up to 250 students, Native students, from all over Turtle Island attended. But one year in the middle of the translation, we had some of it done. And they in Alaska, they had all these students, 250 students…we had Luke and Ephesians done. And they gave a copy to every student. And they also did Bible studies using the First Nation Version. And then to get feedback from all these students. And the feedback was amazing. Three Native students came to faith reading it. And they said, “When I heard it in this language that speaks to my heart, even though it’s English, it’s speaking in a Native way to my heart. When I read it that way. I go, ‘Oh, I get it. I can, I see.'” Like, in other words, I think what happens is the colonial Jesus gets stripped away.

Mariah Humphries
Yeah.

Terry Wildman
To the real Jesus. (Siri – I couldn’t get that. Could you try again?) (laughter) Siri was responding to me. Colonial Jesus gets stripped away so the real Jesus can shine through. And when he shines through so many of our Native people, our traditions, our values, everything, match up with his teachings.

Latasha Morrison
Wow.

Terry Wildman
And we find out, hey, Jesus is on our side, not because we’re Native, but because we’ve been oppressed. And he’s on the side of the oppressed. Anyway, that’s some of the story.

Latasha Morrison
I know, I love this story. Because we didn’t have to ask a lot of questions. You went in, you answered just about all the questions. But I wanted, I did want Mariah to come back, you know, for those who are listening. And there’s this reference to deconstructing and colonial Jesus. I want to explain the reason why we need this, to kind of peel away these layers of what colonial Jesus is. Because a lot of people with the lens that they’re looking through, they don’t understand the influence of Western culture on the Bible, on tradition, on theology, and what we have now. And so if you could explain that a little bit Mariah. And maybe you guys can just talk about that a little bit. And there’s a few more questions we can get in. But we’re going to also insert some of the music into the podcast also.

Mariah Humphries
Nice. First of all, you you dated yourself a little bit when you said CDs, but you didn’t say you were playing tapes, so that’s good. I know exactly what, you burned some CDs. I know what that was like. (laughter) Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think what’s so important, and what, exactly what you described when you open up this book as a Native American woman, I instantly was exactly what you said. It’s in the language that I know, which is English, but it pulled out everything from inside me. And I was like, this is exactly how I just sat there and listened to aunties read this to me. My uncles reading this to me. This is exactly how a Native would share scripture. Right? And so you beautifully put that on to so many pages. And I’m not one for a lot of tears. But I shed some when I was reading some of these. Because it was like, no, that is, that might be one of the most beautiful ways to describe like the Beatitudes. You know? I was like, bawling my way through the Beatitudes on this one. Because we have been taught so much as Native people, that how we express our thoughts on Creator and how we think about faith has to be through that lens of this Americanized Jesus. Right? And this westernized Jesus. And I think that’s one of the things that this is almost like a statement of refusal, too. Right? This New Testament. Like, no, he hears us, Jesus hears us, Jesus understands us. Because this is a voice of the oppressed. And I think that’s one of the things that we have to face so much as Indigenous Christians is that the assumption that we have to give up all of this, the assumption that we have to sacrifice the way that we really view Creator and really view our connection with creation and how we see ourselves through scripture as Native people, we have to really put that to the side in order to follow Jesus. Because that’s kind of what we’ve been taught. And that’s just not true. And I think that’s something that’s so beautiful about this work that you’ve put together, is you have combatted that mindset, even through non Native people who’ve read this. They’ve said, “I’m moved by this, and I don’t know why.” I was like, “Well, I don’t know why either. But I know I’m moved by it.” But this, you know, this is how I view this text. And they’re like, “This just kind of really goes against how I have been taught, how I have to look at scripture, and I’m looking at it in a very different way.” They’re like, “It’s very much how I viewed it, when I first read, you know, The Message, or when I,” you know, as children, when they try to put these deep concepts into child words. Like how they put it into your context. And I think you did a fantastic job of doing that. And you’ve put forward something that says, it’s not just this, it’s not just this colonized version of Christianity. God is broader than that and God is bigger than that. And this is also can be the sacred text of, these are also created people. And you know, from the jump, from Genesis, which you might want to do a creation story, I’m just putting it out there, Terry Wildman. That you might want to also add in the creation story at some point. You don’t have to, but I just want to say let’s get that done. But I think that that is, I think that’s such a beautiful way that you have, because we have to combat that all the time, and talk to people and work through with people, even as individuals, especially if we were underneath that form of missionary guidance, exposure, and on Tribal Lands or right off Tribal Lands, and just being able to navigate what it is like to be a Native Christian and how it doesn’t mean you have to compromise and assimilate into this other mindset. You can be truly who you were created to be. And follow Creator in this beautiful way. I love this whole text. It’s just an amazing, amazing work. And it really does kind of put something against that colonized mindset of who an Indigenous person is, and you’ve given a beautiful reflection of what it’s like to be a Native Christian in this work. I know one of the things that you talked about was, you have a lot of people, I mean, I’m Mvskoke. I’m from the southeast, you’re north, there’s a lot of miles in between, we have a lot of Tribal Nations that are in between those miles. And we all have different languages that we describe ourselves with. And you chose First Nations. So can you explain why you chose to go with First Nations because you could have chosen a lot of other things as well. And when I first saw it, I was like, I’m going to be interested to see why he chose this. And you do talk a bit about that in the beginning of this text. But why did you go with First Nations? Because there are a bunch of different terms that we reference ourselves as that depends on where you are regionally, and, you know, generationally, as well. I’ll add that in there. So what made you go ahead and kind of concrete in the term First Nations to describe this?

Terry Wildman
Well, over the years, the, you know, my wife and I were traveling involved in the ministry. You know, if you go onto a, from our experience of going into the reservation, everybody’s an Indian. Okay? We’re not Native Americans, we’re Indians. Okay? Or you go to other places and meet some other, you know, maybe more urban Natives. And they might say, “Oh, we’re Native American.” They don’t use Indians so much. All these titles, Native American, American Indian, Indian. And then there’s Canada’s First Nations. You know, what I liked about that, and when I, I met a lot of other Native believers in Jesus who were kind of forerunners of what’s been happening, of saying, “I don’t have to quit being, you know, abandon my Native culture, abandon my Nativeness and become non Native to follow Jesus. I can follow Jesus in the context of my culture.” And so I got around some of these leaders, and some of them were Canadian. So I heard First Nations a lot. What I liked, is it got the name America out of it.

Mariah Humphries
Right.

Terry Wildman
Okay? It’s not Native American, it’s First Nations. In other words, the nations that were here first. And it’s being used more and more in the United States area, you know, where we are. I think there’s a multiple ways, but I guess I wanted First Nations just because of the fact that it removes that word American from it. Because Christianity isn’t American.

Mariah Humphries
Right.

Terry Wildman
The Bible is not an American, you know.

Latasha Morrison
Say it.

Terry Wildman
It’s just not. America could cease to exist and, you know, Christianity wouldn’t change. You know, maybe it would. I was gonna say, for the better, but (laughter)

Latasha Morrison
(laughter)

Terry Wildman
I don’t mean that, you know. Again, I grew up in this land. I grew up, there’s so much I love about the land. But, you know, there are some, I grew up experiencing a kind of freedom that a lot of my Native ancestors didn’t experience. You know? And so you have to understand the story all the way through. And how Native people, you’re going to have, if you go to different places and talk to different Native people, you’re going to get 10 different ways of understanding America, of understanding colonialism, of understanding what happened. I’ve been to many places where, you know, Native teenagers have no idea what happened. All they know is, “Why are we like this, and they’re like that? What happened? I don’t want to be like this anymore. I want to be like them. I want to sing like them. I want to talk like them. I want to get rid of this.” You know? And it’s kind of sad, because there’s so much beauty and there’s so much good that Creator has put into our Native cultures that to see that disappear, would be, to me a terrible loss. A terrible loss. Because Creator has been at work here in this land for a very long time. Probably longer than the existence of the Bible. You know, we’ve been here in this land. And Creator didn’t just come here with European people. He didn’t come here with the missionaries. He was here already. They were just supposed to connect to what Creator was already doing here and share this good news. But here’s the problem. They thought that they had all the good news. They didn’t think we had any good news. Okay? But we have good news, too. Creator taught us some things in the ways of seeing that when it comes together with the message of Jesus, it can bring out some new things that people have never seen Jesus that way. And that’s true of every culture. You know, the European people, the Greek people in the very beginning. And you got all these Hebrew people to be are the first believers in Jesus. Right? Okay? But what is the New Testament, what language is it written in? Greek, not Hebrew. So from the beginning, this message was intended to cross a culture, to be heard through another language, to be translated. And so I think it’s a good thing that it’s translated in a way that that culture can understand. And if you look at the Greek version of the Old Testament, there’s differences to the Hebrew version of the Old Testament, different nuances come out, different ways of wording come out for the Scriptures. And it’s true in any language, anywhere the beauty comes. So, what I like about First Nations also, I’ll say this, to close this, this answer out, is that it goes beyond North America. And we’re already finding out that this translation is touching other cultures, other people in other lands. It’s already happening. You know? And it’s influencing other translators to do similar things in other places, in Mexico and Brazil, even in Iraq.

Latasha Morrison
So good. So good. First Nations, I love that. And thank you for that explanation because, you know, you don’t think, you know, it becomes like just robotic in how Christianity is bigger than Western culture, bigger than America. It’s about every nation, every tribe. And it takes us back to the root of every nation, every tribe, it takes every nation, every tribe to represent the totality of who God is. And so I think that’s so beautiful. You have a lot going on. There’s a animated film that’s coming. Can you tell us a little bit about the animated film? I mean, listen this turned into a book, a film. Mariah already has you doing the creation story. And then I want you guys to read a little bit of the Beatitudes. Do you have the Bible with you? Okay, cool. Okay. So yeah, I want you to read a little bit of that. But yeah, could you tell us a little bit about the animated film? I got a chance to look at a little bit of it on YouTube.

Terry Wildman
Well, when we were halfway through working on the New Testament, we had put out this Luke and Ephesians as a test to get it out there. And we put hundreds of copies out, people were finding them and contacting us. And someone from CRU, which is the former Campus Crusade for Christ and the Jesus film people are under the CRU organization. And they created what’s called the Jesus Film that’s been shown all over the world and put into many different languages. Well, they’re doing some new things in the Jesus film, they’re creating animation. They’re telling some of the the biblical stories to relate to different people. Well, someone from that organization got a hold of the First Nation version early release, Luke and Ephesians, and contacted me. And said, “Hey, would you like to do, would you be open to doing a Jesus Film project with us?” And I said, “Well, I don’t even know if I have time to do that. But tell me more.” And we talked about it. And I said, “Well, I’m open to that idea. But you guys are gonna have to raise the money, because it’s just that way.” And they say, “Oh, we would! We would raise all the funding.” And so I kind of left it with this guy and said, “Okay, I’m open to it.” And then as we got, a few, I don’t know, six months down the road from there, I get contacted again by this guy and several people from the Jesus Film, “Oh, somebody gave some money. A significant amount of money. I think we can do this project.” And so over $60,000 came in.

Latasha Morrison
Wow.

Terry Wildman
And so then we had to figure out, you know, what are we going to do? What portion of Scripture, all that kind of stuff. So we finally settled on this story, two stories, basically. You can watch the film as one long, longer version, seven minutes, so it’s not real long. But for today’s listeners, that’s a long time. You know? That’s like an eternity, seven minute video. (laughter) But we broke it into two three minute videos, or one long, seven minute video, but it’s the story of Jesus feeding the 5000. And the story of him walking on the water and Peter’s experience of walking in the water with Jesus. So he becomes the Water Walker, and so for our Native people. You know, you don’t have a Native gathering unless you feed people.

Latasha Morrison
Right.

Terry Wildman
You know? And you don’t expect people to bring their own food, you feed them. Okay? Well, that’s what Jesus did. All these people are there and he feeds them. And, he feeds them as much as they can eat and then there’s leftovers. And what do you do with the leftovers? Send it home with everybody, wrap it in tin foil or aluminum foil and on paper plates, and you send it home with everybody. You don’t keep anything. That’s what Jesus did. He sends them, he makes sure everybody gets off that they don’t go home hungry. And then there’s this experience of him walking on water. Now, water for our Native people is life. And here’s this story of someone who can actually, you know, talk to the water and the water listens to him. That’s pretty significant. Now, most people when they read in a westernized Americanized Christians don’t think about water that way. But we do. So when you watch this film, you’re gonna see that the water and everything, even the land has Native symbols on it, and different things like that. We had our friends from CRU, Donnie and Renee Begay, who are the leaders of Nations, CRU Nations, they were our consultants on the film. Donnie and I went to Florida to sit with the, actually, we actually did some of the work. They had us paint one of the cells that they used, the digital cells to create the film. And then I worked with the, as musicians, I worked with the musician they were using to create the sound for it. And so the funny thing was, I was working on the First Nation Version to get it published. And they were working, we were working with this film to get it finished. It just turned out by accident, or by divine providence, one way or another, that the film and the First Nation Version were going to be released at the same time. And so I ended up getting both InterVarsity and CRU together to plan a release together. So here’s what’s happening, this film actually starts bringing together organizations to work together. (laughter) That’s one of the gifts I believe our Native people have. We’re the host people of the land. We can host events and bring the colors together, bring the people together, bring the languages together. And I think that we’re going to see that this First Nation Version is doing that very thing. It’s crossing the cultures and touching more than Native people. We actually saw that in the beginning, some of the the non Native people who are working with us on the translation as support people, when we would get a section done, we would read it, and boy, the tears would flow. And we thought, “Oh, so this is not only going to touch our Native people, this is going to touch non Native people. Oh!” So we said it’s not only a gift from Native people to Native people, but a gift from Native people to the dominant culture. And it’s been amazing. The feedback, I thought I was going to get, and not asking for it, but much more pushback. I mean, if you go on Amazon and look up the First Nation Version, I think we have two negative out of 6 or 700 reviews on it. Two negative reviews. And they don’t even make sense. You know, the negative ones. I mean, come on, if you’re going to if you’re going to counter it, do it right. (laughter)

Latasha Morrison
It’s called trolls. (laughter)

Mariah Humphries
I’m just laughing because you’re both authors and authors always know the amount of negative reviews they got on platforms. Like they can count them. They know who left them. (laughter)

Terry Wildman
So anyway, the film. They want to do more films. It’s really done well. It’s beautiful. I don’t know if on your podcast site, you can put links on there.

Latasha Morrison
We will!

Terry Wildman
Put a link to that film. And then I worked with Native InterVarsity, too, one another film. That one’s called Water and Sand. Some of our Native staff there worked together with InterVarsity created another video about, I don’t know about a six minute video, done from a Native perspective on water. And you know, it’s another gift out there that people are responding to. That particular video has been used all across the country on campuses, Native and non Native campuses. And what I love about the First Nation version and these films is it’s raising questions. It’s raising interest. And the fun thing is when I get interviewed, and I’ve been interviewed at least 100 times now, on podcasts and all kinds of places, without just being this radical, “Oh you hate us here in America.” No, I get to tell the reason we did the First Nation Version because of the language and all that and then I watch the eyes get big and the miles drop. And they go, “Oh, my gosh, I didn’t know this.”

Mariah Humphries
Right.

Terry Wildman
And isn’t it funny that all this has, I’ve talked to professors to politicians running for office, and they still think Indians live in tepees. You know?

Mariah Humphries
And not all of us did to begin with, by the way.

Terry Wildman
Right. As if all of us did. “Do you still live in tepees?” “Well, we like tepees, and we’ll camp in them.” (laughter) But you know, come on. It’s just, the ignorance.

Latasha Morrison
It’s like a love of ignorance.

Terry Wildman
But the ignorance is massive. It’s like Isaiah, darkness will cover the earth, in great darkness the people. You know, I’m thinking, wow, colonialism’s a great darkness that’s covering the earth. You know? And wow. And God wants to shine his justice, his light into this darkness. And how does he do it? He talks to people, “Rise. Shine.” And that ancient prophecy given to Israel when they were coming out of Babylon, comes to us through Jesus. He’s the connection to the ancient prophecy.

Latasha Morrison
Okay, repeat that again. You said that ancient prophecy of Israel coming out of Babylon, and then you froze a little bit.

Terry Wildman
Okay. The ancient prophecy about, “Arise and shine for your light has come,” in Isaiah was given to Israel when they were coming out of captivity, out of Babylon. They had been in another culture; they had learned another language they had to speak; another culture was forcing its way on them. And many of them had been assimilated and lost into the culture. But here’s a group coming out and Creator is saying it’s time for you to arise and shine. Well, that was for Israel. How does that relate to us? Well, through Jesus. It comes to us through Jesus. He’s the light that is shining. And he’s the one that’s calling us to counter the darkness, to shine in the darkness. And how do you do that? You tell the story of how the darkness came, and what it did and the blindness that is caused. And your story of oppression becomes a story that Creator can take and bring good out of. Not saying that it was his desire for this to happen to our people at all. But he is always at work to bring to bring good out of that. But we have to approach it the right way. I like what Be the Bridge is doing. There has to be a bridge, there has to be a way that we can become kin, that we can become family. But you can’t do it by pretending these things didn’t happen. You can’t just sweep it under the rug. If there’s going to be reconciliation, it has to be based on truth. It has to be based on what really happened and what really needs to take place. You know, and so I’m glad that the First Nation Version is causing people to wonder. Darlene and I are speaking at universities now, speaking to chapel. We spoke to 1000 at a university in California, 1000 students and that university, I asked, “How many Native students are here?” And nobody raised their hand. No Native students there. And they’re talking to us now and saying, “Will you come back? Will you speak to our students again? They really were wondering more that we don’t have answers for. Can you come and actually lead us in worship and do these things?” So we’re gonna go back there again, Azusa Pacific University, is where we were at. We’re doing things with Calvin, the University of Michigan coming up this coming winter. So it’s opening doors. It’s opening hearts. I have hope.

Mariah Humphries
It’s amazing.

Latasha Morrison
I would love for, Mariah, you said that when you read the Beatitudes, that it was just almost made you weep. I would love for you to just read a portion of that. And maybe Terry, if you can close us with the Lord’s Prayer from the reading?

Mariah Humphries
I can do that. I have the soft back version. It looks different than Tasha’s, she got the hardback. The Beatitudes, which is just a beautiful piece of scripture in any translation, but this one especially was very meaningful for me. So I’ll read the first part, and then I’ll read the last part of them, because I think they’re exceptional. “The Blessings of the Good Road. Creator’s blessing rests on the poor, the ones with broken spirits. The good road from above is theirs to walk. Creator’s blessing rests on the ones who walk a trail of tears, for He will wipe the tears from their eyes and comfort them. Creator’s blessing rests on the ones who walk softly and in a humble manner. The earth, land, and sky will welcome them and always be their home….Creator’s blessings rests on the ones who make peace.” I’m in verse nine, “It will be said of them, ‘They are the children of the Great Spirit! Creator’s blessings rests on the ones who are hunted down and mistreated for doing what is right, for they are walking the good road from above. Others will lie about you, speak against you, and look down on you with scorn and contempt, all because you walk the road with me. This is a sign that Creator’s blessing is resting on you. So let your hearts be glad and jump for joy, for you will be honored in the spirit world above. You are like the prophets of old who were treated in the same way by your ancestors.”

Latasha Morrison
Powerful.

Terry Wildman
Thank you for reading that. That was, you know, even though I was involved in this, when I hear it, it still moves me. I hear it right back especially through another voice. I love all the voices. I remember there was, before I do the prayer, there was someone shared this in a Native church. And this grandma, who had a granddaughter, seven year old granddaughter, opens it up and starts reading from it. And the little granddaughter says, “Grandma, the Bible sounds like you!”

Mariah Humphries
Right? See!

Terry Wildman
So that was, that really got me.

Latasha Morrison
That’s beautiful.

Terry Wildman
So this is called “He Gives His Followers a Prayer. O Great Spirit, our father from above, we honor your name as sacred and holy. Bring your good road to us, where the beauty of your ways in the spirit world above is reflected in the earth below. Provide for us day by day – the elk, the buffalo, and the salmon. The corn, the squash, and the wild rice. All the things we need for each day. Release us from the things we have done wrong, in the same way we release others for the things done wrong to us. Guide us away from the things that tempt us to stray from your good road, and set us free from the evil one and his worthless ways. Aho! May it be so!”

Latasha Morrison
Well done, Mr. Terry Wildman, well done. Thank you so much for your faithfulness, for just doing the next right thing. Just you know, we always look to someone else to do it. And God was pointing right at you. So thank you for joining us on the Be the Bridge Podcast. We’re gonna put everything, all the links will be in the transcript and up there. We’ll do some clips. And if there’s anything else you want us to add, just let us know. And this was beautiful, and on a day. I mean, only God could do that! You know, on a day that we’re supposed to have this conversation this decision comes down. And that, like you said, like, and I wanted to kind of how you ended, I wanted it to end there. You said, “I Have hope”. And this has given me a lot of hope today. Mariah, any last words?

Mariah Humphries
No, just mvto, Terry. There’s so many of us doing work, such good work, but a lot of times we’re siloed. And we’re having to do that work by ourselves. And so anytime that I get to be in the presence, even if it’s virtually, with another Native, I just, it makes my heart happy. And it makes my whole day. So I’m just glad to be able to get to hear a little bit about the backstory of how this came about. And just look forward to the future things that you’re part of, and how you’ve been a convener of voices, where sometimes even within our own culture, a lot of times we stay separate. And so you brought so many different voices, significant voices together for this unified reason. And it’s just a beautiful piece of work. I have a lot of friends, our director of training uses this all the time when he speaks from scripture, and he quotes it and he uses it and he promotes it. So your work is impacting non Indigenous people as well. And I think that’s, I think that’s so important. So thank you for being here today.

Terry Wildman
Yeah, and pray for us as we are currently working on Psalms and Proverbs.

Latasha Morrison
Oh wow. Yeah!

Terry Wildman
We’re about halfway through.

Mariah Humphries
I wasn’t gonna say anything about that, too. But I was like, please tell me that’s coming. And the creation story. Okay. I’m just gonna put that out there.

Terry Wildman
We’re going to have to do the creation story. But I want to say, miigwech, thank you.

Narrator
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge Podcast. To find out more about the Be the Bridge organization and or to become a bridge builder in your community, go to BetheBridge.com. Again, that’s BetheBridge.com. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, remember to rate and review it on this platform and share it with as many people as you possibly can. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Today’s show was edited, recorded, and produced by Travon Potts at Integrated Entertainment Studios in Metro Atlanta, Georgia. The host and executive producer is Latasha Morrison. Lauren C. Brown is the Senior Producer. And transcribed by Sarah Connatser. Please join us next time. This has been a Be the Bridge Production.