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Professor of Theology at Wheaton College, Dr. Vincent Bacote joined Latasha Morrison on the Be the Bridge Podcast to talk about the role of the Black Church in American Christianity, the contextualization of theology, the importance of understanding race and ethnicity, the challenges faced by the evangelical identity, and more!
Dr. Bacote brings truth, wisdom, and hope to the Be the Bridge community through this conversation!
Join in the conversation on our social media pages on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn to let us know your thoughts on this episode!
Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison
Producer & Editor – Sarah Connatser
Music from “Bridge” by Ellie Holcomb and used by permission
*note: this originally published in February but had to be re-uploaded.
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Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.
*This transcript was made from Spotify and has not been checked for accuracy.
0:06
Hey, be the bridge community.
It is great to be here in this Black History Month and we have a treat for you.
I met this person a couple years ago at an event and we have stayed connected.
He his name is Doctor Vincent Bayko.
0:21
He is the professor of theology and the director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics at Wheaton College and we are so honored to have him here.
He is an author of Reckoning with Race and Performing the Good News, In Search of a Better Evangelical Theology, The Political Disciple, A Theology of Public Life, The Spirit and Public, The Public Theology, Appropriating the Legacy of Abram Kuiper and has contributed to books including On Kuiper, Aliens in the Promised Land, Keep Your Head Up and Prophetic Evangel Evangelicals.
0:58
He is a regular columnist for the Comet magazine and contributes to other magazines including Books and Culture and Christianity Today.
And so we are so happy to have you here.
You’re also a member of the Evangelical Theological Society and the Society of Christian Ethics.
1:17
And you reside in Chicago area with your family.
And I got a chance to meet your entire family and hang out for a little bit at this event.
Welcome to the Be the Bridge community.
It’s an honor to have you here.
Thank you.
It’s a real privilege to have this conversation.
1:34
Yeah, there’s so there’s so much we can talk about, but it’s so funny.
I met you a couple years ago and I remembered the name and I think one of someone from our team was having some ongoing conversations with your wife because I found out what what you did.
1:50
And I was like, wow, I would like to know.
Learn more.
And then I was in class and there was an article that we were assigned to read.
And I looked at the name and I was like, Mako.
Oh, I know him.
Listen, no, it’s a small world.
2:07
It’s a small world.
And in this, you know, talked about contextualizing what it means to like theology is, is always contextualized.
And I mean, you were saying some things that, you know, we is like we understand that theology does not happen in the back vacuum.
2:24
It happens in culture and all of those you know, and all of those things.
I would love to just hear from you.
We’ll talk about the article a little bit later, but what you know, this is Black History Month and so you talk about this in in reference when we start talking about how things are labeled like black theology or you know, black author, all of those things.
2:46
What can the broader church in America learn from the historical black church that’s.
A great question.
Well, at this moment, for example, you you feel free to.
Say you’re free to talk as long as you feel comfortable.
3:03
Our audience have been discipled into this conversation.
Feel free.
You don’t have to hold back.
Say what you mean.
Say what you mean, Professor.
What it’s like, it’s like what?
I felt like he was saying more than he was letting on in these interesting times, as I like to call them.
3:21
Yeah, I would say there there’s even more reason be able to see something that’s quite biblical, but something that can happen when you are either already comfortable in the culture or you presume that there’s been what I would call a kind of time where you were always at home in the culture.
3:42
No Christian should ever expect between Genesis 3 and Revelation 21 that we are of course going to feel completely at home wherever we are.
We would like to, but we can’t.
And so and sometimes we really don’t feel at home because things that are happening politically, culturally, etcetera may seem to be, you know, turning the screws on us, so to speak.
4:08
You know, we feel like we’re kind of like in a vice from what’s happening with the society.
And if you’re dealing with African American Christianity, this is just part of life, right?
You know, and, and, and even if one wants to say, OK, hey, these laws got passed in the middle of the 1960s, there’s some things get better.
4:29
Yes.
We’re not in the 1940s.
Right, but.
We’re also nowhere near arriving to some place where everybody’s just singing Kumbaya all the time, right?
And so we’re, we’re in an environment where for very reasons, depending upon where you are, you can be sometimes feeling like as a Christian, OK, why am I feeling like, you know, the culture is kind of not always being so friendly to me.
5:00
And the black churches had to deal with that.
I mean, obviously, obviously pre civil war, but especially after civil war, sometimes people go, well, why is there a black church?
Well, because these African Americans and these predominantly white denominations were a basic basically getting ignored and, and when it came to African American, you know, towns and I mean, why, why does the pastor become the community leader?
5:23
Why are so many of the black leaders, when we’re looking at the civil rights movement, for example, why do they have reverend in front of their name?
Because the incubator and the leadership lab was largely in the context of the church, because it was the center of everything.
5:39
It had to be the center of everything because it was sort of the only social organization where you could be addressing these things and where you could organize around things.
And of course, the point being that what people can learn is that Christians can learn how to walk through pressure and suffering and difficulty, while also still asking God to do things to make things less difficult and, and more and more opportunities for and having more opportunities for human flourishing.
6:10
And so the, the, the black tradition writ large is that way, even though, even though within black denominations people might have argued about how political should you be, etcetera, everyone to some degree has to had to deal with, OK, how am I just getting through, so to speak?
6:28
And I think sometimes when Christians have talked about feeling like they’re up to get up against it now, you know, which Christians and where, especially right now because some people think whether all these Christians seem to be like in control, etcetera.
Well, I think it depends on what part of the country you’re in with, with, you know, if you’re, if you’re in Oregon, if you’re in Washington state, if you’re in Massachusetts, you know, you might, you might feel much more like you’re in a, in a kind of post Christian environment than if you are say in Alabama or Texas or something.
6:55
And so there are places where people might feel like, you know, I feel like I’m still getting this pressure as a Christian.
Well, my, you know, my question is, have you turned to just look at the history of the black church, Right.
To see.
7:11
Yeah.
Yeah, people don’t know like like you just stated where people don’t know why the black church is this, you know, and understanding that the reason the black church is this is because we were not welcome in worship and white church like the story of Richard Allen, you know, you know, and so there’s something that I think we have to remind people of that history.
7:36
We just have a lack of understanding history and and what developed around our theology, you know, that that theology of of long-suffering and and, and that is understood the lament that’s understood that and wider range of theology.
7:56
There’s not a deep understanding of.
Yes.
You know, another thing honestly, I think people can learn about the black church is kind of does speak to a little bit to what the article’s about is just the fact that the circumstances in which we find ourselves, things that are happening in what’s our context.
8:14
Yeah, those things, those things create theological questions.
And so even if you’re just talking about God, Jesus, church, eschatology, whatever, you’re talking about it amid your lived reality.
And sometimes your lived reality is making you ask certain questions.
8:31
How do I talk about God in the midst of this suffering?
How do I say God is good in the face of this suffering?
How do we really have hope in the face of these challenges?
How, how do we think about whether we it’s it’s ridiculous to be hopeful or is it proper to be hopeful?
8:49
How can I both be truthful, you know, real about how difficult it is, but also strangely not acting like somebody who’s defeated because of what I know about what I’ve been, you know, proclaiming and believing for years.
But now I have to believe it in a certain way because it’s really, you know, it’s really time for me to to show that I really believe that I have this hope, even though everything around me tells me that I should give in to despair rather than be hopeful.
9:19
So, so people will, people will write songs about that, people will preach about that.
People will write books about that.
And the reason I mentioned preaching and singing is a lot of times people will say, we know, I can’t find, you know, as many theology books by, you know, black church people.
9:37
Well, part of it is because a lot of the theology was theology that’s emerging from the ground, from the experience, and also because a lot of people for varying reasons, aren’t, weren’t able to be in these particular kind of theological education contexts that are formal ones.
9:56
But you’re seeing that theology expressed in preaching.
You’re seeing that theology expressed, you know, in other liturgical forms, in prayers and songs.
And so, and it’s, it’s funny.
I, I sometimes I can tell my students you’re doing theology all the time.
Yeah.
10:11
It’s not just when you’re reading, you know, I don’t know John Calvin or Aquinas or somebody, right.
You’re if, if you’re having a conversation in the dorm and you’re debating something or, and you’re trying to make sense of something, all right, well, what are you doing?
You’re, you’re doing the work of theology and you’re asking these these God questions in the face of particular circumstances.
10:33
And so often the reason that a lot of theological developments even happen throughout the history of the church is because what something happens, some crisis emerges and questions are raised around that crisis.
And you have to, you know, have a conversation, right?
10:49
Exactly, exactly, right.
Right.
One of the things you say in that article, you talk about race matters, but with nuance.
And I thought that that was really good because we, you know, like a lot of people don’t understand the difference between race and ethnicity, you know, and so we know that race is man, man made.
11:09
So that’s you’re, you’re talking into the American Western context and you’re saying with nuance and you said, but yes, race and culture and, and how it influences our theology.
Can you talk about that a little bit?
11:25
Because a lot of times, I think a lot of times people feel like, yes, they, they look at the black church and they say your theology is, you know, it’s completely around, you know, that’s why they name it black theology.
Like it’s something separate versus just the lens that we’re we’re we’re all looking through, but don’t see the same thing that, OK, white people created an entire theology based off of, you know, who they are, changed the entire narrative, took out scriptures, but you know, they can’t see how that’s done, the difference between the two.
12:01
And so could you explain that a little bit?
Sure.
The fact is the reason that it matters, the context matters that race matters.
Race or even race and ethnicity matters is because, you know, all people better ask is OK, Hey, can you tell me about the way you talk?
12:21
Can you tell me about the food you eat?
Can you tell me about the thing that you just take for granted about the way that you talk about the world, the story that you tell, the assumptions that you make?
Well, where did that come from?
It didn’t come from the 1st century.
12:37
I can tell you that much, right?
The point.
I mean, we’re we’re people.
We’re having this conversation in 2026, a long way away from 1st century Palestine.
We’re the United States of America having this conversation.
We’re speaking English.
12:52
We’re on the other side of so much so many historical events that have happened.
And there’s so many ways that we think about what normal life is that nobody even imagined as being part of quote UN quote, normal life for most of history is behind us.
And so when you have, for example, A history on the other side of the Enlightenment, particularly, you have this emphasis on the individual.
13:17
Does the Bible talk about address the individual before the Enlightenment?
Of course it does.
But there’s a larger magnification of the of the individual and about, you know, individual independence OR autonomy, whatever language you want to use there.
13:34
It’s about.
And the point being that that’s part of being this modern world, which which winds up also, though making less important, how being a part of a group informs the way that you’re thinking about your life or the way that you’re arriving at truth because it’s about you, the individual, and to the extent that you’re able to live your life that way and, and and where you can, where it’s a luxury to choose group identity, then you strangely why I’m talking about your theology in a way where it’s really all about just your personal relationship with Jesus.
14:10
And you’ll you’ll talk about we or us when it, if you will convenient.
Right.
If your other.
On the other hand, if you are in a situation where the we is just trying to stay alive, even though on the other side of this enlightenment and we’re at one level you’re in this country that talks about the liberty of the individual, etcetera.
14:33
But because of laws, you’re not really getting the benefits of all that individual freedom and, and, and that the, the laws aren’t protecting you from when other individuals are going after certain groups rather than others, right?
You’re going to think a lot more about not just me, the individual, but you’re also going to think about us.
14:52
And so that when you’re thinking about your theology, you’ve got to be thinking about does God care about anything besides the individual and their personal relationship with Jesus, right.
When God talk, when God talks about sin, when God talks about the ways people are supposed to function, is he only talking about us as a kind of group of individuals that are part of a voluntary association that chose to get together, you know, for common cause?
15:17
Or is he addressing us as groups of people?
Because part of what it is to be human is to have identities that are more than just individual identities.
That part of our identities are also racial, ethnic, geographic, you know, language, etcetera.
And so if we’re going to be thinking about the significance of, say, you know, black, black theology, well, part was part of what you have to do.
15:42
You have to deal with the we.
Yeah, but, you know, and, and you and you and you and what will happen is so I’m wearing glasses.
I have a certain prescription, right?
The lenses of my experience when I’m looking at the Bible will make me not only see what the Bible says about individuals, but I’m also seeing what happens when God’s talking about groups of people.
16:04
Oh, my, God is identifying, saying in the book of Micah when he’s criticizing his own people, but he’s critical criticizing categories of people.
He’s criticizing the prophets, the judges, right?
So what?
What’s the point being?
He’s not, he’s not criticizing the one or two judges that got it wrong and everybody else is OK.
16:22
You know, he just says the judges.
Right.
The prophets not.
Everybody.
Acceptance the point being is that wait so you’re telling me that there that there’s corporate identity that matters in terms of my theology and there are a lot of people because corporate identity is a luxury to choose like a coat to put on or off when you need it.
16:43
It’s like those things don’t matter as much in the Bible or that somehow you read them, but you but it doesn’t register.
Whereas if you if you’re thinking about we a lot, you’ll see all the with all the we’s are showing up.
Yeah.
And I think the big important point about this is that we really do need the whole body of Christ and the gifts and also how they expect the experiences of us grind the lenses of our perception so that we’re picking up on different things and emphasizing different things and elaborating on different things.
17:15
How that enables us to speak about our faith in ways that somebody who has a different set of lenses of experiences, they’re going to speak about something.
And it’s not necessarily those things are in competition with each other.
They might be just part of one bigger picture.
17:31
But if I think that, OK, there’s only one picture and here’s the one that I’m telling you, and it’s from what we have as these 21st century individualistic people, then I’m really going to miss a lot.
Yeah.
And so I have to be willing to learn from people that say, well, I don’t just see all this.
17:48
I, I, I, I see a lot of we, I see a lot of us and I see God saying that that matters.
And that matters also in terms of how we talk about, we talk about what church is.
If we talk about how sin functions beyond just what individual actions are that I, I can’t not see the Bible takes those things seriously.
18:07
If I, I tend to think about as an individual, then I, I might think, well, I know it says that, but the important thing is like these personal choices that individuals are making and how that’s kind of cashing out in terms of conflicts and stuff.
And that’s really how sin functions was one of the ways that sin functions.
18:26
But the Bible definitely recognizes that people do things, they create systems, they create things that are larger than the individual or Even so much larger than the group.
And that larger thing functions as a kind of avalanche of injustice.
18:41
You might say, you know, that advantages one group and, and, and complicates things for others.
Anyway, I think that’s one of the ways that you can see such a difference.
That’s so good because I mean, I feel like you were in my head this morning.
I, we were having a conversation earlier this week and I was just kind of pondering on it and really thinking about it.
19:01
And I was like, we have been disciples.
So much of Western culture, culture has been discipled into me and Jesus versus the we, the communal covenant.
And I think that’s what you’re, you’re, you’re getting that, you know, and what, what you’re talking about.
19:18
And I think it’s like, almost like a, you said, you know, the Enlightenment, like theology was influenced by that and it became more self preservation about personal salvation, you know, like, like about me versus about the we when we look at scripture.
19:36
And so that was an example when you talk about Micah and it’s like not one or two judges, but all the judges.
So, you know, it’s communal.
And we, and I think this season, this wilderness that we’re in now is, is, is calling for that.
19:52
So I appreciate that the and I think, you know, one of just to kind of summon up, it’s like, you know, all our theology must remain aware of the broader theological tasks.
That’s it.
Yes, absolutely, absolutely because because we none of us sees clearly not but Paul says in First Corinthian 13, you know, after all the great things about love that we see through a glass target now if he saw through a glass darkly.
20:17
Yeah.
Now, how am I thinking?
Because of however much education I’ve got, But I see some things a little bit more clearly than Paul did.
I mean, what if if he sees the the a opaque glass, so do we.
Which means I might see some things, but I’m missing other things.
20:36
We really need the entire church and the gifts of the entire church and the vision of the entire church to give us this larger theology where we’re seeing more of the fullness of the faith.
And particularly, you know, most Christians would say, do you think God is great and beyond us?
20:54
And there’s so much about God that’s hard for us to know because of how immense God is.
Everybody’s going to go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If that’s the case, then why would any of us think, well, you know, but my tradition, we have answered every question in totality for all conditions and circumstances, and all you really need to do is just join us.
21:16
And if you join us, then everything will be fine because we’ve got it all figured out.
So what’s the problem with somebody saying that they don’t know what they don’t see?
Yeah.
And all of us have to be aware of even having a kindness position to ask, is there something I’m not seeing, you know, something I might be missing and which means then can someone help me to see more?
21:40
And a lot of times somebody who’s not like me can help me to see more.
And we have to be willing to do that.
And I think sometimes what happens?
And so you’ve probably had this kind of conversation many times.
So if someone is responding to the way things have gone wrong because of, you know, the majority culture and they want to talk about the contributions of our tradition, sometimes the people when they say, OK, now this is the thing I’m talking about, right?
22:06
And I’m like, yes, OK, but whatever it is that thing that now what you’re talking about, it’s still just part of the thing.
It’s not the whole thing.
But and sometimes I think what can happen is our response to other people’s narrow vision can strangely lead us to have a reaction that when we kind of begin to see a vision associated with where we come from, somehow ours becomes the totalizing vision.
22:28
Nobody has the total lighting totalizing vision.
We all need the rest of the church.
Right.
Because, you know, we, we just are finite, limited, so often unaware, you know, not knowing what we don’t know.
And so everyone has to be willing to do that.
22:47
And I think, of course, obviously the more that people have proximity to power, the more you can get into the delusion.
Delusion.
I said right of thinking or no, I think I’ve kind of, I got it.
It’s like, well, you have something and it might even be true what you have, but believe me, it’s not the whole picture.
23:05
Yeah, right.
And so we all need to have a humility and recognition of how much more there is for us to learn and to know and to think about all the different ways that God can open up doors for us to have that learning do.
You think the evangelical church today is still leaving?
23:25
I’m at, I noticed.
Glad.
I’m asking this question just for the the the broader audience is still leaving like theological vacuums?
And if so, where?
Where do you think some of these theological vacuums are?
Oh, for evangelicals.
OK, so first I’ll define who I think evangelicals are.
23:43
Exactly.
Because we’re we’re having this conversation.
It was like the year 2000.
We kind of know we’re talking about these Protestants that will get an ally fights about eschatology and what church order and whether you would you say Sacramento ordinances which are these Bible people who talk about conversion and the centrality of the cross and sharing your faith.
24:05
Now you know we’re in a much more complicated public relations complication.
I’ll call it where there’s the presumption that evangelical first means something political and then it Jesus is kind of sponsoring this politics.
And there are people who in surveys, when they think evangelical, that’s what they’re thinking.
24:23
Those are the evangelicals I’m going to talk about when I answer this question because those people aren’t even necessarily thinking about the Bible.
They’re not particularly moral, and they’re not particularly thinking about something other than certain sociopolitical ends with a little bit of Jesus kind of, you know, baptizing it.
OK.
24:39
I think the evangelicals that are these people that say that the Bible is #1 for me, here’s the interesting thing, OK, You say it’s number one.
First of all, how much of it do you actually know?
And then in terms of knowing that, are you aware of how it tells you, you know, be transformed by renewing of your mind, Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
25:03
Those are texts that tell us about the process that we’re on.
So I think one of the things that that evangelical theology needs is a greater awareness of the fact that no matter how good my training is, no matter how good the preaching is at my church, no matter what programs we’re using for Christian education, all of us who are doing this are people that are very much on the way, which means there’s so much stuff we don’t know.
25:31
I think this weird thing can happen.
So you can tell me what you think this is right or close to right.
A hazard of saying we’re the Bible people can be then that you actually have the expectation that somehow because you say you’re the Bible people, you know everything that’s in there and that you’re close to perfectly performing everything that’s in there because you have that stated commitment.
25:54
And I wonder if, if, hey, that’s who we are, let’s do it as if just saying, let’s do it means that you got this download of everything that the Bible says and also the transformation necessary to publicly display everything that’s in there.
Yeah.
26:10
And, and so I, I wonder whether that kind of expectation kind of happened within, you know, a good thing, which is saying we’re the Bible people.
But if if I have that expectation and I’m not willing to ask, well, what’s all the stuff we might be missing?
26:26
Yeah, yeah.
Then I think that that could be a problem, right?
And so and so here’s a great example.
I think evangelicals are good at historically packaging the faith.
Here is a pithy way for you to understand the sort of salvation transaction.
26:43
OK, here’s God, here’s sin, sin’s got to be addressed, Here’s Jesus, you need Jesus.
If you say yes to Jesus, you’re saved, you’re good.
If you mainly think that and you don’t think about what else the Bible says.
27:00
And sometimes if what you’re being told mainly that the entire thing is about whether you’re saved by works or not, that’s a really important question, a really important question.
It’s far from the only question the Bible’s addressing.
And so then I had to ask, what else is the Bible talking about?
27:17
And so I think one of the things that can happen, unfortunately, is the good intentions and if you will, the well intended framing of digestible versions of Christianity is that you almost make a virtue out of not going deep into the faith.
27:38
In fact, a lot of people criticized evangelicalism as being a mile, a mile wide and an inch deep.
It’s really good at getting people in the door.
It’s not good at getting people deep into being able to swim deep in the water.
And So what it means is that there’s so much more for people to know and to learn about and, and so much more by the way, than just talking about atonement and justification.
27:59
Those are important things, but they’re just not the only things that the Bible talks about.
So how are you going to talk about more than that or even how those things have something to say to issues that maybe people just don’t think about a whole lot or haven’t had to think about a whole lot.
28:16
And so I, I, and I guess here’s, I think a big challenge.
It’s not just for evangelicals, but done for evangelicals.
The evangelical focus on getting the truth of things right means, OK, here’s truth over here.
OK, how is that truth related to what walks around or to the ethics that people practice?
28:36
I think often the way that people wind up do in Christian ethics is either somebody you trust tells you what the the issues are to that are ethical issues we should care about, or something happens to you or somebody you care about.
And then that raises the question of something that you care about.
28:52
But they’re both versions of something shows up on your doorstep.
Now, somebody who is neither of those situations is not something that happened to you or your family.
It’s not something that your trusted people told you you should care about.
If somebody else tells you that something else is an important ethical issue, well, what makes you care about it?
29:11
When I would argue what ought to make you care about it is the beliefs that you already say you have.
Because if God says, for example, you know, let’s say Psalm 8, you know, it’s kind of echoing what goes on in Genesis 126 to 28.
29:29
God, it’s amazing that you made us people who manage your whole world.
Now imagine the whole world’s a big job.
There are a lot of things that come up in managing the world.
Now, if somebody tells me that, for example, say racism or the glass ceiling or whatever are things that need to be addressed and, and, but nobody’s ever said that to you, A person might say, is that what we need to talk about?
29:57
And why are they saying that?
Well, because I mean, it’s it because they, it’s not been part of what’s given the menu of, you know, the ethical issues of the day.
Whereas I think if our beliefs are more focused on a commitment to managing all of God’s world, OK, here’s something that’s mismanagement of God’s world.
30:15
And if I know that which would be managing it, then I’ve kind of got what I call an ethical antenna so that if I see that mismanagement is happening, right, I go, nobody’s ever told me about that, but I recognize that as mismanagement.
30:33
And if our job includes this management of the world, then we need to pay attention to that.
I need to learn about that, and somebody needs to do something about that.
And so I think our beliefs can create a disposition in us that orients us towards not just stating the truth, but displaying that truth and having a sensitivity to recognize things that matter for us, even if somebody didn’t put it on our doorstep.
31:04
But if somebody else says, hey, you know, it was accountable.
My doorstep.
Well, OK, so I didn’t know about this, but thank you for telling me that.
I’m not going to tell you.
It doesn’t really cause an issue because it didn’t just show up on my doorstep or the doorstep of the people that I trust.
But I say it matters.
31:19
Why?
Because what I believe tells me it matters, even though I knew nothing about it until you introduced it to me.
And I think that’s, I think that’s definitely a problem in terms of kind of the way of doing ethics and evangelical context, not only evangelical context, but I feel like definitely evangelical context, yeah.
So this month is that’s that’s a really good this month is Black History Month.
31:40
And, you know, right now, like it, you know, if we are keeping our pulse on what’s happening in culture, we’ve seen just some attempts to, you know, the erasure of Black history, some diminishing and dismissing and deflection as it relates to the Black church because we’ve always been, you know, a part of the moral conscious in this country.
32:03
And so sometimes, like, you know, there is a tradition in the Black church to speak truth to power, you know, to call America into the the moral conscience, into the more ethics that it says it upholds.
What would you say?
What are some things that the broader church could learn from, you know, as it relates to the from the African American spiritual formation?
32:28
What are some things that the broader church could learn from the African American spiritual formation?
I think one of the biggest things is, is the fundamental dignity of every human being, and for that to be such a reflexive truth.
In other words, by reflexive truth, I mean it’s that we know this and we know that when somebody is antagonizing other human beings of any kind, we know that that is against God and we’re willing to say that’s against God.
33:00
So that’s one thing.
A second thing I would say is, is a courage to speak up when it’s not always going to be necessarily well received.
You know, I think sometimes the people, when they, when they like to tell a narrative about history, they like to say, well, you know, the civil rights movement, look at what we got accomplished, etcetera, etcetera.
33:22
And you get this idea based on a certain narrative of it or a certain version of watching eyes on the prize or something.
You, you think that, OK, So what happened?
And all the black people in America showed up at the March on Washington, right?
I mean, and, and, and all the and, and, and everybody thought that, you know, the civil rights thing is the way we’re supposed to be.
33:44
So I remember asking my godmother who is 96 years old.
OK.
So she like, I was 98.
They’re still going so, so very sharp in here.
Very sharp.
I called her up one day a couple years ago.
I said, so the civil rights movement was going on.
34:02
How much enthusiasm was there in the black community for the civil rights movement?
And what she said was, well, a lot of people, it was hard for them to have enthusiasm.
And I’ll never forget her saying this, She said.
Because the oppression was so strong, it was hard to know whether or not it was going to work.
34:19
Right, it was a fear.
We get we get this narrative that OK, so it’s civil rights.
You know, there’s all these heroes, everybody’s marching with John Lewis across the bridge, right?
And the point is, is like, no, actually, this is not what most people were doing.
And surprise, surprise, did you know the black people can disagree with each other about things.
34:37
I mean, never mind that, right?
But but and so my point being that if people want to have a narrative that, well, everybody kind of did this and it was about non violence and everybody kind of wanted to, you know, say, let’s have unity, but a unity where we forget about our particularity, which nobody like ever was really saying.
34:57
But but but that’s a certain interpretation of things.
Then what happens is people want that and they’re afraid of what will happen if it’s not that.
And so that requires A courage to say, you know, we can really talk about how God, when he said to Abram, Genesis 12 that he was going to make, you know, that every tribe in tongue a nation was going to be blessed through him.
35:24
And that ultimately that was going to mean like in Revelation 59 where it says that Jesus purchased for himself people from every tribe in tongue a nation, that he really meant that.
And when he said every tribe in tongue a nation, he didn’t mean and because they are purchased by his blood, the every tribe in tongue and nation part is just incidental actually.
35:43
So whatever got put into those tribes and tongue, the nations that are expressions of him being create creative, for example, none of that matters.
And it’s like, well, no, actually it does.
And yes, it’s hard for people to live well together.
35:59
I mean, it’s it’s been this way ever since Adam said, the woman you gave me to God, right?
Or ever since, you know, Cain said to Abel, let’s go for a walk.
You know, Abel’s like, OK, let’s go for a walk.
I mean, I like walks.
I mean, he had no idea that Cain was all messed up because God liked.
36:16
I mean, Abel, just go for a walk.
I mean, it’s a senseless killing Point is, is that that’s really quite been the case since Genesis 3.
So it’s hard for humans to sanely live well together, which means don’t be surprised that opposition happens when you try to say things so that people will do that living together.
36:38
And you’ve gotten out of the civil rights movement.
People want to do that.
Now, obviously there’s some people in terms of black radicalism, etcetera, who wanted to say, look, just give us our space, please.
Thank you very much.
Give us our money, give us our place.
You live over there.
We’re going to live over here and my point isn’t that everybody needs to live like a multi ethnic things or whatever.
36:55
I mean, the point though, is that if you’re the church, you should be practicing what is going to be the case when we’re all together on the other side.
Exactly, and we are far from that.
Yes.
Yes, you know, it’s, it’s, but it’s like we’re not allowing the Bible to read us, you know, to transform us and to renew our minds.
37:21
And we’re seeing that.
And I think, you know, the when we look at the world, there’s like not much expectation.
You, you can when you look at the world systems.
But when we talk about the Kingdom of God, you know, God’s people, when they are their ideologies follow that of the world’s versus the Kingdom of God.
37:41
That’s, I think that’s the disheartening part.
Yes, yes.
Of of all that we’re experiencing now, have there been some particular theologians that have impacted or deeply shaped your own, you know, thinking?
37:56
Who are some of the theologians that you can name that has deeply shaped your own thinking?
Well, that’s well, I mean, obviously my dissertation figure Kuiper, of course, who’s out of picture, but but certainly, you know, just being influenced by people like a Bill Pannell or engaging some of Carl Ellis’s work has been really important.
38:20
You know, you know what, you know, this documentary that I did about black evangelicals, I mean, interacting with people like like Stan Long, Melbourne Bank, Mel Banks are theologian, but he he’s well, I’d say everybody’s a theologian, actually, that’s for a living.
38:38
But but but but but what he did, you know, is, is it, you know, with creating this entire, you know, publishing our UMI and why is she doing that?
38:55
You know, he said, you know, there are other science school literature that might mention black people, but black people were never addressed is what he said.
And so, and my point is that this is an important theological point, addressing people as actually being there.
39:11
You know, God reveals himself to us.
He just say things about us.
He actually speaks to us.
And you know, it’s interesting if we create literature that it will talk about things, but it will never actually say anything to you, the person.
39:29
Right, right.
That’s that’s, that’s a sad oversight if that kind of thing happens.
And so to me that that it’s really important that that happened.
And so those are certainly some of of the people that have been influential for me.
I mean, obviously some of the usual cast of character, you know, in different ways, your Calvin’s, your Luthor’s, your, you know, people like Augustine Irenaeus, all those people, they’re, they all play different roles and kind of this synthesis in the way that I think theologically.
39:58
OK, what is something that as we come to a close, what is something to our bridge building community, you know that you would say, what does it look like to be a faithful follower of Jesus in the public square?
Like what advice would you give our bridge building community as it relates to what does it mean to be a follower of Christ in the public square?
40:21
Sure.
Well, part first.
What it means is it means being a person to recognize that it’s God’s world and not ours, and that God’s ends, His purposes, will be accomplished, You know, no matter what is pressing against His purposes at the moment, that those things are on borrowed time.
40:39
In a word, I know the end of the story.
That’s.
Good.
And then I would also say is that because I know it’s God’s word and it’s God’s plan for his world, my responsibility is to serve in the opportunity he gives me without mistaking that opportunity to mean that if I don’t do this, that somehow, you know, God’s plans aren’t going to happen.
41:04
God chooses to give us the privilege to be part of his means for making his plans happen.
He does not need us to do that, but he chooses to do that.
He gives us the privilege and then he and he empowers us to do that.
And the reason that I’m making this point is we don’t need to have an anvil on our head that, you know, it’s up to me to make everything happen.
41:28
I mean, that wants to being a very unhealthy thing because then somehow I’m the one who has to do XY or Z.
If I don’t, you know, God can’t do XY or Z.
He’s like, no, actually he can.
He can, but he wants but he can, but he also wants us could be his people serving him in his world, being the people who where it’s very clear, you know those two great commandments.
41:53
We’re so loyal to God that we dare not make anything else an idol.
All whatever causes we’re a part of.
So, so we don’t have to worship our causes, but we can certainly be committed to them and practice them as we’re practicing them.
That segues commandment.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
42:09
And Roman 1310 love does no harm to a neighbor.
We’re thinking about how are we, no matter who it is, our team or another team that we’re always seeking the good for other people and that we want to humanize other people.
You can disagree with people and still treat them like a human being.
42:25
My disagreement is not an excuse for me to set my character aside and to just tort someone doesn’t mean you can’t go off.
So as a point, I mean, some people it’s just going to happen, OK.
But but if it happens, the point isn’t the big thing isn’t OK going up because I mean, do I want to win people or do I just want to win my ’cause right.
42:46
And I think we, we want to win people and we, and we want God to help us to be agents of people or one to salvation, but also to lives of living out that salvation so that people are walking in God’s truth rather than doing things that show that they are serving other idols connected to power or, you know, loyalty to one group or another, or to, you know, to their, their financial aspirations or, or whatever.
43:14
We want God to change those people, not to just wreak havoc on those people because they might be pushing against, you know, what, what we think is, is the right path forward.
And please don’t.
And, and so here’s the thing.
We need to be hopeful and realistic at the same time.
43:32
Hopeful for all the reasons I said, because it’s God’s plan and purpose and power, while also being realist about the fact that realism means don’t be surprised that people push against you.
Don’t be surprised if your emotions are all over the place sometimes.
43:48
Don’t be surprised if you’re surprised at at developments that happen, or if you’re surprised at craziness that people do.
This somehow seems to persist for a while.
In what history?
There’s been lots of craziness that has persisted for a while, but it’s all on the clock.
44:07
The clock’s going to run out on that.
And so we live like we know the clock is running out on all the things that are against God.
That’s good.
And while we’re aware of that, we, you know, we we, we can discern God.
What are the ways you want me with the gift, talents and abilities you’ve given me to do my Ephesians 210 the works you have for me living as one of your people in your world from the nations part of the people that you purchase to bring you glory through.
44:36
You know what I do and thought word and deed without thinking that I need to do all the thoughts, words and deeds?
That’s so.
Good I one of the things we do as we you know, on our podcast, we always ask all of our our our partners, our guests that are on here.
44:54
What is something that, you know, there’s so much despair now.
They’re so many things happening, There’s so much suffering.
But it’s, it’s, it’s great to see the things, the little things that are bringing people hope.
So, Doctor Baker, what is something that is bringing you hope in this moment right now?
45:16
You know, one thing, at the risk of sounding self promoting this document about black evangelicals that I did that, you know, it’s about a year old now.
There’s been 0 negativity to this documentary.
And people tell me all the time about how helpful it is and how it has helped them to just understand better their own situation.
45:38
Or people said I didn’t know any of this and I need to learn this.
And but nobody is, nobody has said, you know, I think that the message that you’re giving in this is, you know, some kind of hit piece or whatever that hasn’t happened at all.
And so I’ve been so encouraged by that.
45:54
And I, and I share that to say that I mean, it’s called black and evangelical.
And given the attention and given the way that some people in our our country at this moment are making it seem like if you mentioned anything particular that’s that’s not in the majority of the majority culture, that somehow, you know, you’re the problem.
46:16
Right.
Strangely, nobody said I don’t understand why you’re calling it black and evangelical.
Yeah.
And believe me, I I, I have been, have felt nervousness about that and it hasn’t happened.
Yeah, Well, that’s a, that’s a good one.
46:31
We’ll probably put the link up in the show notes well when we post.
But like I, you know, for me, even that word, evangelical, I never really came in contact with that word until I was in predominantly, you know, you know, white spaces.
46:48
I never, never.
I grew up.
I grew up National Baptist.
Yeah.
And so, you know, and I know like even I know we’re supposed to be Indian, but I do want to hear this as you, as you, as you talked about that, you know, why do you think that, you know, black Christians, we don’t identify as evangelicals like like that because I know we see it as more of a political term, but it’s it’s really not.
47:17
So can you explain that a little bit before we we get out?
Yeah.
So, so as I mentioned earlier, the best face of the term evangelical, yeah, is Christians who take the Bible completely seriously or say they do they, they intend to, they aspire to take it completely seriously and they’re committed to Jesus work on the cross and they’re converted by encountering that work and they want to share that.
47:39
And they’ve built institutions and you have kind of a, you know, a world of places like Wheaton College where I teach, etcetera.
We have all that black Christians in general have those basic beliefs, but their their networks and their institutional relationships aren’t necessarily ones that are in the sociocultural contact.
48:01
Now there’s some people that I mean, they’re they’re black people who are cradle evangelicals, but most are, are, you know, your Church of God in Christ, your national Baptist, your AME, etcetera.
And, and because evangelical has been identified as a political, you know, set of commitments in terms of, Hey, you vote for these issues or you highlight certain issues and you ignore others.
48:27
There are a lot of African Americans that think, why would I ever use that term?
So here’s why I think people can use the term, at least strategically.
It is because you can say the real word of evangelical is gospel.
48:44
And I’m definitely a gospel person.
The gospel is good news.
I wouldn’t be a good news Christian.
And so when I so a person can say I’ll tell you what kind of evangelical I am the good news Christian kind of person.
That’s what I am not that there is a particular type of socio political socio cultural baggage that must be entailed by that term because got the gospel predates any of the socio political stuff that is associated with the evangelical movement.
49:15
So, so I, so I think, and I get another thing I’ll say is they’re more, I think they’re more black Christians in the last 30 years that have encountered evangelicals because they’ve gone to either some pair of church organizations, they’ve encountered those or they’ve encountered certain churches or they listen to Christian radio.
49:33
They, they, you know, or they hear this music.
So those that that kind of cross pollination has given people some interface with it and and for some people, some formation.
But for many black Christians, the the way that the political identity has grown so large.
49:54
And so it’s so much as part of an assumption about what you are as a never tell.
It makes a lot of people say call me a good news Christian, but please don’t call me never tell.
It really is the same thing or it should be the same thing.
50:15
So I would say the very least.
Maybe people can say I’ll tell you what I’ll tell you what.
How about this.
I want to be the good news Christian.
And so I will give you a new defining of what evangelical can be and take it back from, you know, the undertow or the all the accretions of politics and culture that make people think more about that than.
50:34
Being hijacked.
Well, that’s right.
Yes, exactly.
Well, thank you so much just for your wisdom and your brilliance, and it’s such a great and honor to have you all to be the bridge podcast.
50:51
I know that this would be this really some some great understanding for our community to just to go deeper and just to be formed deeper and just this is good for I love to bring voices, especially like yourself on here just so our our people can interact with, you know, theologians who just happened to be black.
51:15
You see what I did there, right?
I did, I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
So great.
Well, thank you so much.
Tell the family I said hello.
It’s been a pleasure to have you on the Be the Bridge podcast.
Thank you.
I really appreciate it.
51:30
Thank you.
Thank you for tuning into the Be the Bridge Podcast.
The Be the Bridge Podcast is brought to you from the nonprofit organization Be the Bridge, which exists to empower people and culture toward racial healing, equity, and reconciliation.
51:47
To partner with us to create more resources like this in order to increase racial literacy and pursue racial justice, head to Be the bridge.com/give.
Latasha Morrison is the executive producer, Sarah Connatser is the producer and editor, and the theme music is from Ellie Holcomb’s song Bridge.
52:07
Until next time, keep pressing on in Grace and Truth Bridge builders.
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