Dorcas Cheng-Tozun on Mental Health, Migration, and Making an Impact for Justice as a Sensitive Soul

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In this episode of the Be the Bridge podcast, Sarah Connatser speaks with ⁠Dorcas Cheng-Tozun⁠ about her writing, her faith, and her justice work. They discuss the importance of understanding migration and mental health theologically, the role of ⁠Made for Pax⁠ in addressing these topics, and the significance of creating welcoming spaces for all. Dorcas also shares insights from her book, ⁠Social Justice for the Sensitive Soul⁠. The conversation highlights the need for kindness, understanding, and joy in today’s world.

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Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison

Producer & Editor – Sarah Connatser

Music from “Bridge” by Ellie Holcomb and used by permission

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Connect with Dorcas Cheng-Tozun:

Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.

*This transcript was made from Spotify and has not been checked for accuracy.

0:06

Hello Be the Bridge community.

Thank you so much for joining us on the Be the Bridge podcast.

I am delighted to have a new friend with us here today.

I have Dorcas Ching Tozin with us.

She has written some books that I know you are going to benefit greatly from.

0:25

So let’s welcome Dorcas to the podcast and to our community and, and let’s get into some of these topics that are are so needed right now.

Dorcas, welcome to the podcast.

I would love for you to share yourself a little bit about yourself with our community.

0:44

Sure.

Yeah, I am a San Francisco Bay Area native and have spent most of my career in the nonprofit sector, have also lived overseas for a number of years.

My husband runs a social enterprise that makes solar powered products for families without access to electricity.

1:04

So because of that, we have lived in China, we’ve lived in Kenya, we’ve lived in Hong Kong and, and I have two kiddos at home and have been married for 20 years and have the privilege of writing some books that personally mean a lot to me and I hopefully, hopefully speak to others as well.

1:26

For sure.

I love that you brought up your husband’s work.

How has living in the those different parts of the world impacted your your own work and your writing?

You know, it is actually from my experience living overseas that I started writing.

1:45

Our first time living overseas was in mainland China, and I’m ethnically Chinese.

And that actually made it much harder for me because the locals there had expectations just by looking at me, right, that I wouldn’t be fluent in the language, that I would understand the culture and all the customs.

2:02

And I didn’t also my family’s from Hong Kong, which is culturally very different from mainland China.

And so I really, really struggled.

I did not grow up speaking Mandarin, and the locals had a lot of trouble with that.

And so I endured basically daily verbal abuse from total strangers who were really frustrated with me for not being able to communicate with them or understand what was going on.

2:30

And it took a real toll after for about a year of living there, I had a complete meltdown.

And that’s when I started writing because I fell into this really severe depression, was really struggling because I had felt confident that God had called us to China.

2:49

And yet it felt like the whole situation was so messed up, at least for me.

Things are going OK for my husband, but they were going terribly for me.

And and so in trying to just understand what is going on here, what is the work that God is doing in my life, it required a lot of thinking and reflecting and sort of just being quiet before the Lord.

3:13

And, and so I started journaling just for me.

And, and then out of that, it, it turned into, you know, this is incredibly meaningful work for me.

I’d love to be able to share some of what I have learned and experienced with others.

3:31

So I have this old memoir that I wrote, gosh, more than 15 years ago at this way.

It’s still sitting on my hard drive about my experience of the Chinese American living in China.

And and that was kind of my my first entry into into the writing world.

3:52

And I would say that living overseas has really, really shaped kind of the way I see the world and the way I think about people.

The fascinating thing, right as you as you move into other cultures and countries, is this recognition that there are ways in which we are extraordinarily different.

4:12

And then there are these commonalities that you find across all of humanity, no matter where people have grown up, what their background is, there are just some certain things that are in need to all of us.

And, and so there’s a lot of beauty in finding those connections and commonalities and then being able to have that curiosity to truly learn from one another, even when it’s challenging, even when it’s unexpected, when it makes life a little bit harder.

4:42

But I think it also makes relationships a lot richer.

That’s beautiful.

That makes me think of just wanting to ask you about your church experience and how I’m thinking right now about current discussions about Christianity and revival and those sorts of things that kind of leave out the global church experience.

5:15

How did you experience God in the other places that you lived outside of the United States?

Yeah, it was pretty remarkable.

I think it had a very significant effect on my faith and how I saw God.

5:31

You know, China, I think it’s many of us know there’s a very vibrant underground church despite all of the persecution that they face.

And my husband and I sort of accidentally fell into leading this small group of young Chinese nationals who were, you know, in their 20s, 30s.

5:50

They had just moved to the big city to try to launch their careers.

And so many of them were brand new Christians.

And they were looking for guidance and discipleship and mentorship.

And we were quite young at the time.

6:06

We were in our 20s ourselves.

But I think just the fact that we grew up here, that we have access to so many resources.

You know, you walk 5 steps and there’s a church and you walk 5 steps and there’s another church, right?

So just from that background, we had so much more exposure to theology and Christian teaching and studies than our Chinese national brothers and sisters.

6:32

And so they really looked to us for some of that knowledge because they couldn’t access it themselves.

So that incredible hunger for God, for understanding sort of how God interacted with humanity and, and what that meant for them and the purpose in their lives was really inspiring.

6:57

You know, that despite all the risks, you know, of course, there’s the, the political risks, risks to freedom.

There’s also risks to, you know, your family being really upset if you become right, or maybe losing friendships or your friends reporting you, right.

7:14

We had a couple of close calls over the course of the year and a half or so that we were doing it, which was terrifying because I went into it with no experience of knowing how to deal with that, right?

Because we have nothing like that here.

And and yet, you know, their their persistence, their perseverance, their faith in the face of hardship, in the face of these really, really difficult questions that they’re wrestling with.

7:40

Just trying to understand, you know, what is God doing in the midst of our country in this cultural moment in my life?

And, and I think also it a really important lesson that I learned because it was so of course, right?

7:57

It was so hard to find a formal church community organization that we could be a part of.

And it made me realize more than ever, we say this all the time, but I think until you truly experience it, right, the sense that the church is the people, the church is not the four walls, it’s not the organization, it’s not the pastor, right?

8:19

Like there were so many of those things we didn’t have access to, but we had one another.

And in that it was the church.

And so to, to be in fellowship together, to feel the presence of God in the midst of us was extraordinarily powerful.

8:36

And also also in Kenya, that was a very different experience, right?

Because it is it has very large Christian population.

The government is very open to, you know, different religions.

So we could freely worship.

There were a lot of churches around the, you know, African worship.

8:55

If anybody has not experienced that, you are missing out.

It’s the most amazing thing ever.

And, and there was this one church in Nairobi called Nairobi Chapel, which is an extraordinary church.

And they, it’s this huge church.

They have, I don’t know, something like 567 services a weekend.

9:14

And, and it’s multinational folks from all over Africa as well as, you know, the rest of the world.

And what I loved about Nairobi Chapel, what it taught me was that missions doesn’t always look the way we think it looks here in the Western world.

9:31

So in terms of Nairobi Chapel was sending missionaries from Kenya from East Africa to the UK to the US to Canada to other get where like we might think, well, we don’t really need missionaries rather, but to to them they’re like, Oh no, no, no, those are very much missionary people.

9:53

And we have the people who are willing to go, who’ve been well trained, who have the heart for folks in other countries.

And it was just really, really neat to see that vibrancy and that love for people all around the world and that willingness to sacrifice and move to, you know, halfway across the world to a whole new place so that they could serve people there.

10:19

That wow, I was going to ask you about how you decided on the 2 topics for your Bible studies, but I’m hearing themes that already that kind of prepare the way for that.

10:38

But before we get into that, I know these are done, these are Made for packs Bible studies.

Can you share?

I don’t think all of our community knows is familiar with made for packs.

Can you share about that?

Yes, I was on staff with Made for Packs for just over three years.

10:55

It’s a faith-based nonprofit.

They do incredible work.

PAX really operates at the kind of intersection of culture, art, contemplation and justice.

So when I was there, there was a really strong emphasis on let’s create a lot of really meaningful content, especially for Christians of color and especially for the younger generation.

11:21

So a lot of what we created was for millennials who are not a little bit less young now, but still, you know, on the younger side, millennials and Gen.

And so that’s actually where these topics came from.

11:37

I can’t fully take credit for them, even though they resonate very much with my own personal experience.

So PAX had done this extensive survey of young adults asking them, hey, what are the topics that you care deeply about that you’re not hearing people in the church talk about?

11:58

And so these two, migration and mental health, were two that made the list of, you know, I think we ended up with something like 5 to 10 topics that came up very frequently of, hey, I really want to know this.

I want to understand how does God see this?

What does the Bible say about this?

12:14

I just don’t hear people talking about it.

I don’t hear pastors preaching on this.

So this has been a years long endeavor.

We started working on these probably five years ago or so, and it’s been very much a collaboration.

12:31

I, I almost feel a little bit embarrassed to have my name on the cover of these because I kind of curated it and helped put it all together and organize it.

But each of these Bible studies have at least a dozen different contributors who have given their gifts toward this topic.

12:50

So they’ve written poetry.

There’s gorgeous art in here that was made by artists.

There are articles and essays by folks who are experts in their fields and theologians.

And, and so it’s this really rich compilation of a lot of different perspectives of people’s bringing in their own personal stories.

13:13

And, and I think that it’s, it’s so much better for that, that, that it’s not just me talking to you all, but it is this collective wisdom and, and talent and gifting that we have gathered to hopefully speak to these different topics from, from different angles and through different mediums that can kind of touch people regardless of where they’re at that.

13:39

Is one thing that I loved about when I was flipping through these is that you can see the the collaboration that it’s not just it’s not just text and fill in the blanks.

There’s the gorgeous artwork there are the the writings and the essays.

14:01

You can tell it’s, it’s very intentional and no matter how someone might learn or respond to things, there’s, there’s, there’s something, there’s something for everyone and it really grabs all of your, all of your senses and your attention.

14:21

So we’ve got, I didn’t even read the titles, but we’ve got mental health, experiencing God’s care for our mind, body and spirit.

And then we also have migration, experiencing God’s care for immigrants.

And they both follow that six week, six week session schedule.

14:43

And one of the parts that I really appreciated was that they both have a session about myths.

And that is something, I mean, there’s a lot of overlap with our work at Be the Bridge, but it’s something that we bring up and in the discipleship journey, because so much of discipleship is not just learning a new thing, but also unlearning things we’ve been taught or have kind of it just accepted.

15:17

And So what can we talk about those myth portions a little bit and in both or in in either of these and and kind of just walk through, walk through a little bit of why that was necessary to include.

15:35

Yes, so in the migration Bible study, the specific myths, so we kind of have these big overarching statements in a lot of the sessions that kick off the topic, but it’s not necessarily all inclusive of everything that’s discussed in there.

15:53

But the the misstatement that we have for migration is that migration is a problem.

And what we were trying to get at with this statement is I think there has been, well, certainly now in this particular political moment, and this has been an ongoing theme for, for quite a while actually in the history of the United States, if you look back.

16:17

But the sense that migration itself is a bad thing, that people should not be moving around.

People should just be staying put, or at least specifically people outside of our country should not be coming into our country, right?

It’s that the rules don’t necessarily apply to people wanting to move within the country or moving to a different country.

16:37

And and yet the reality is that migration has been a part of the human experience pretty much since day one, right?

Since since humans have been mobile, they have moved around.

16:52

It’s it’s just built into kind of who we are as humans, that we will seek out new places, new opportunities, that if something, some sort of hardship hits our family, like a natural disaster or famine or war, we will naturally go seek safety, right?

17:12

And we see those very same dynamics happening today.

And then the other thing is that, you know, when you start to read Scripture through this lens of migration, it’s actually quite remarkable that you see that migration is everywhere in Scripture.

17:28

So it is part of the human history story and it’s part of the biblical history story as well that that so many of these major, you know, biblical characters that we really look up to experience some form of migration.

17:45

And oftentimes it was God who called them into migration and said, go, go to this new land, right?

Because I have a plan for you.

I have a plan for the people there.

And so we see in that that migration is actually for our benefit, right?

18:00

There are ways in which the migration experience, and I certainly learned this myself.

It is, it kind of strips away everything that you have previously depended on and known and pretty much all you have left is God.

18:18

And so there is this level of faith and dependence on God that you need to practice through the migratory experience, that there are very few other experiences in life, I think, that test us that much and that draw us close to God in the same way.

18:36

And so there’s this beauty and this richness and meaning and purpose in migration.

And and so really we’re trying to remind folks that it’s not migration itself that’s the problem, right?

It people move that that’s just the way life is.

18:55

The the problem is the policies, you know, that are unfair or inhumane. the IT is problematic that we have so many things going on in the world, like war, like natural disasters that are harming people and forcing them to move, right?

19:13

Those are the problems.

Problems are not certainly not the people themselves and not the fact that they feel the need, need or the the the they feel compelled to move.

And and so I think we’re trying to reinsert the humanity back into what migration is that that about the people and the work that God is doing through them and in them, that often times God blesses people through migration.

19:48

And and so that alone is not where we should be drawing our line, right.

And, and so I think certainly in this moment in history, our hope, one significant hope with this study is that we can at least kind of set some commonalities so that we can have a foundation upon which to begin to have really meaningful, respectful.

20:17

Conversation and dialogue because it, it has become so antagonistic and hostile and we’re really not hearing one another well.

And so, so we wanted to at least kind of set a baseline of like, let’s at least understand, right, there’s some basics here, that these are all human beings made in the image of God, That migration has been happening for as long as humans have existed.

20:42

And then often times migration is part of the story of God and that God does amazing things through migration.

And so how do we make this a, a fair and humane process across the world?

20:58

I mean it, it’s a problem here in the US, but certainly, you know, there are a number of countries that have struggled to come up with really effective immigration policies.

And, and so it’s, it’s a dialogue that urgently, urgently needs to happen.

21:14

Very true.

And it’s so interesting that these have been in the works for several years and now, now they’re published for such a time as this.

I know I wish we were not in this time.

21:30

I really do.

But yes, I if if it had to happen, I am thankful that that these resources just happened to come out at this time.

And, and I’m hopeful that people will be open to looking, diving into Scripture to really understand God’s heart for immigrants, God’s heart for the migration journey, and what we can all learn through that, whether or not we have been migrants ourselves.

21:58

I I loved that there was portions in here that contained an invitation to lament.

When you, when you look at specific injustices in history, it invites you to, to think about people as image fairers and also to lament what has been done.

22:25

And it’s a reminder that we need biblical literacy and also the historical racial literacy.

And those those aren’t at odds.

We can we can hold both of those together to be faithful disciples in this time.

22:46

Both of these Bible studies really invite us to do that, and I am very grateful.

Yeah, thank you.

Well, let me also just mention briefly about the mental health myths since you asked about that as well.

So mental health, you know, very different topic, but still very relevant, very much an issue of today.

23:10

And the myth that we had for this study was that faith is all I need.

And that statement, if it kind of hits you the wrong way, it’s meant to, it’s it’s meant to kind of make you pause.

23:26

I wonder, wait, what, what it really is that talking about?

Because I think in any of us who have been in the church circle, that sounds like a good thing, right, Right.

What you have faith is all you need.

And yet this perspective, especially in the arena of mental health, has actually been twisted in some ways to cause people a lot of harm, right.

23:54

There has been a long history within the church, going back hundreds of years maybe.

I mean, really, you even see echoes of this in Scripture as well.

You know, in in the interactions that Jesus has with others that there has been this conflating of mental health challenges and spiritual failing, right?

24:16

So there’s a sense of you messed up, you send your parents send something bad happened, therefore, or you’re not doing enough of right, you’re not trying enough, you’re not trusting enough, you’re not obeying enough.

24:34

And therefore you are struggling with, you know, XYZ in terms of your mental health.

And, and even though now we have decades of scientific research to help us understand, you know, for like the vast majority of people, pretty much almost everyone, right, mental health challenges come through either, you know, hereditary issues, it’s inherited through trauma, right, through some sort of chemical imbalance going on in our brains.

25:08

And so more often than not, I mean, really almost all the time, there is no, there is no, like it’s anybody’s fault, right?

It’s just, it is what happened.

It’s it, it is the unfortunate consequence of the broken world that we live in, but it is not because you sinned or you failed in some way morally or spiritually.

25:33

And yet that belief continues to persist.

And, and oftentimes what we hear in churches, and I’ve heard this myself, I’ve struggled with chronic anxiety for a very long time, have had multiple seasons of very serious depression.

And I have oftentimes heard, you know, well, all you got to do is pray.

25:51

All you got to do is trust more.

You know, Bible says don’t be anxious.

So don’t be anxious, right?

And, and yet it is dismissing the, the real hardship and pain and sorrow that these individuals and their families are carrying.

And it is dismissing the real, I think, gift of science and medicine that God has given us to help us manage these illnesses, disorders, challenges, whatever you may be wrestling with, right?

26:21

I mean, I, I think God works through modern medicine.

God.

Works through this is.

Why we have medication, right?

If some, if your friend broke their arm, you wouldn’t say it like just pray about it and believe in God, right?

It’s, it’s the same thing.

26:36

And so it, it is so important that we begin to change that conversation to really make sure that people are not continuing to believe in that myth because there are so many families that have felt marginalized, that have felt looked down upon and rejected by Christians in the church when they are already suffering.

27:07

And so it’s really, really heartbreaking.

I feel like this has been an area in which we as the church have really failed because you would hope that the church would be a place of refuge and welcome and sanctuary and healing for people who are struggling.

27:23

And often times in regards to mental health, that has not been the case.

I do think that a lot of it is just people who are not well educated enough about this specific topic as well as they’re not equipped, right.

So even if you have the heart to want to help individuals struggling with their mental health, you may not know what to do.

27:42

And, and that is understandable.

And at the same time, there are a lot of resources out there.

There are organizations that are specifically there just to work with churches around mental health training and equipping and creating programs, creating, you know, building up leaders who can step up in these areas.

28:05

And, and so there is something that can be done.

And, and I would love to see more and more churches begin to move to that place of, you know, we are a welcoming home for families and individuals that are having a really hard time.

28:25

Yeah, definitely.

I and I love the, the overlapping desire with, with both, both of these Bible studies is to become more welcoming, to become people who are safe for other people because, because we need that right now.

28:52

And, and that is something that that God tells us to.

What is the hope with these Bible studies?

Is it a hope that people will do them with friends and small groups individually?

29:07

Is there a certain?

You certainly can’t do it individually.

So there’s a lot of reflection questions, contemplative exercises.

There’s what’s you, you had mentioned that, you know, it appeals to different senses.

29:23

So we even have QR codes in here that write videos that go to audio files.

Like, you know, you can hear folks doing spoken word or telling their personal stories in their own voice.

So there’s all kinds of things that you can experience through this and and you are welcome to do it individually.

29:41

I think the the group experience always add something right, Because these are these are not easy topics like that’s for sure.

And so I think to have others to encourage you to help process through to see different perspectives, you know, I always find that incredibly helpful.

30:02

And I also do want to speak to the fact that both of these as well is really wanting to affirm the belovedness of individuals who are struggling with their mental health or who have struggled with their mental health as well as immigrants and migrants, right?

30:23

Because again, these are groups that often times get marginalized, get scapegoated, get we just, we can, there is rhetoric, right, that that can make them sound less than human.

And, and unfortunately, I think that does seep into the Christian world and within churches.

30:42

And it’s a reminder for all of us.

But I think especially for individuals who who find themselves in that place of, you know, I’m an immigrant or I’ve struggled with anxiety or PTSD, for those individuals to recognize that God is with you.

God loves you, God adores you exactly the way you are.

31:02

And it doesn’t mean that God can’t also do incredible things in your life and through your life, right?

One of the the things that was most striking to me when I was putting together the mental health Bible study was similar to migration.

31:18

But I think I just had less awareness of this going in.

Was that when when you start to look at Scripture through the lens of mental health, it’s extraordinary.

It’s like there is so much in the Bible like these these, you know, biblical heroes that we oftentimes talk about.

31:36

They had their moments.

You know, I mean, you think about Elijah saying he wanted to die or David and some of his really, you know, emotional psalms of lament, right?

31:51

And or even Jesus himself in the Garden of Gethsemane.

And you see sorrow and distress and despair.

It’s all over Scripture, right?

And so it doesn’t mean that you are a less spiritual person.

32:08

It doesn’t mean that God is not with you.

There is no less than in there at all.

You you are made in God’s image.

God is doing a wonderful, beautiful work in you.

And while I would wish for healing for all of us who struggle with mental health and and I’m thankful for those who do experience it.

32:30

It is also the case that that will not always happen right?

And but our full healing, like God’s work, is not contingent upon our full healing, right.

And so I think there’s also the a measure of hope that we really want to bring an encouragement and affirmation that that these are, these are brothers and sisters.

32:52

These are our fellow, you know, children of God.

And, and as much as we can see one another, like what I was saying earlier about my experience living in other countries, as much as we can see our commonalities and the ways in which we have been knitted together as one family, I think that will only be to the benefit of all of us, no matter where you sit with regards to these particular issues.

33:21

Good word indeed.

Before we wrap up, I would love to talk a little about your book, Social Justice for the Sensitive Soul.

It was a gift for me personally.

I yes, it it resonated with with my soul.

33:41

And I would love for you to talk a little bit about what social justice can look like for those people who are highly sensitive and paths learn more introverted.

How can engaging injustice what what can it look like for for them as well?

34:02

Yeah, well, I’ll say for me.

So.

So that’s me.

I check all three boxes.

Introverted, highly sensitive and highly empathic.

I, you know, there’s this ideal that I was striving for.

For at least 15 years in my young adulthood and professional career where I, I felt like this is what social activism looks like, right?

34:24

It’s the protesting in the streets and doing petitions and canvassing and being part of these often times kind of loud chaotic movements, which they are incredibly in fact, effective.

34:40

And that it’s wonderful work.

And at the same time, it took so much out of me.

And I had this pattern of burning out, like burning out severely, not just like I’m a little tired, but burning out to the point where I couldn’t work anymore.

34:57

And it happened almost every two years for me, which is a lot.

And it’s a lot for somebody in their 20s who is supposed to be like at the height of, you know, energy and, and all of that.

And, and so this book came out, came out of a long journey of understanding that ultimately that’s not me.

35:15

That’s not what I’m wired to do.

And, and I think probably somewhere in the mix of there, there was a few years of incredible disappointment in myself and feeling like, like what a, you know, terrible activist I am.

If I can’t even, you know, if it’s overwhelming for me to participate in a protest.

35:34

And, and so this book was really trying to answer the question of what does it look like for somebody who is sensitive, empathic, introverted, to participate in social justice, not only in ways that really fit your personality and who God made you to be, but also in ways that are effective and meaningful.

35:54

And what I found in my research, it was so encouraging.

I am a bit of a nerd and so I love the research portion of writing books.

And so I was at my local library probably every other week.

They had this shelf on justice and activism.

36:11

And I think I looked at pretty much every single book on that shelf to just try to find these stories, right.

So we hear about the Martin Luther Kings and the Nelson Mandela, and these are all extraordinary individuals and we need leaders like that.

36:30

At the same time, what I found in my research is that there are so many people.

For every Doctor King you have, there’s probably 10,000 or more people working behind the scenes on the very same issues, but approaching it in very different ways, right.

36:48

And so the, the civil rights movement is a fantastic example.

I think just because it was such, there was so much happening in the movement, it in some ways it was incredibly well organized and it’s also very well documented.

And so we see in the civil rights movement, you had artists, writers, musicians who played a really significant role in inspiring people, in reaching people and kind of keeping people going when they were discouraged.

37:20

You had folks who were actually training people in nonviolent resistance and civil disobedience, right?

So these were folks who weren’t necessarily out there doing it themselves, but they were in the classroom teaching people about civil rights, about their voting rights and again, how to engage in activism, right?

37:43

And it’s, you know, that’s we need that because it’s not like any of us sort of naturally know that kind of stuff.

So we need people to teach and equip and mentor us.

There are, you know, throughout history there have been inventors and scientists who have been coming up with new technologies that provide more opportunity for people that that provide a better quality of life for individuals.

38:13

And there’s still a significant need for that today.

We have researchers who are gathering data to help us really understand, you know, when we look at these societal challenges we have, what’s really going on here?

38:29

You know, what is the root cause of it?

Who is being most deeply affected?

These are the questions that we need answered in order to be able to figure out solutions that are really going to work, right?

But again, these are folks who are not necessarily out there in front of a microphone.

38:46

They might be in a laboratory, right?

They might sitting in a room conducting interviews, but their work is so critical.

The the Supreme Court ruling of Brown versus the Board of Education was very much supported by an entire body of research that had been done by dozens of psychologists and scientists in other field who could speak to the irreparable harm that was being done to children who were in segregated schools.

39:19

Right.

And so you’d need that kind of information and data in order to compel change as well as to move us toward change that actually will address the root causes of the problem and will serve the people who are being most affected.

39:35

And so I found just a number of different ways.

It’s probably a dozen.

I focus on 6 categories of different roles within the book.

But there’s, I think, dozens of possibilities of what it could look like to participate in justice.

39:53

And you may never need to March on the streets.

You may be in a library, you may be sitting at a kitchen table, you may be at your kids school.

And that matters.

I mean, all of these stories I found there’s more than 100 different activists that I mentioned in this book and they are all people who made their mark.

40:16

Their names may not be in the headlines.

But they did something that was incredibly meaningful, that contributed to change happening.

And, and I, I like to think of it as, you know, these, these challenges that we face, they’re not simple, right?

40:34

I mean, if they were, we would have already figured it out a long time ago.

And so if we’re talking about these really complex, thorny problems, doesn’t make sense that we would try to figure it out, understand it and solve it from 100 different angles, right?

40:51

I mean, so it’s like, yes, of course, let’s do the protest, let’s do the marches, let’s do the petitions, and let’s also do the scientific research.

Let’s also do have the one-on-one conversations with people.

Let’s look through history and learn from the historical record, right?

41:08

We need individuals who are doing all of these things.

And, and I think one other thing I’ll just say is a really important learning for me out of writing this book and out of my own experience in this world for, you know, a couple of decades now is I, I think I used to assume that engaging injustice work meant suffering all the time.

41:37

And sort of the more miserable I was then, the more sure I was on the right path toward, you know, doing what God had called me to do.

And certainly there is a measure of sacrifice that is required.

I think in in this arena of work, there is going to be lament.

41:53

There are going to be really hard things that you see and experience and share with others.

But at the same time, I I recognized, and a lot of wise people before me have already recognized, this is the importance of joy, finding joy even in this very, very hard work that we are doing.

42:14

And I think, at least for me, a lot of that joy comes from understanding this is who God made me to be.

These are the particular gifts that I can bring.

And this is how I can apply those gifts.

And that sense of I am truly myself.

42:31

I am bringing the best of who I am to a really meaningful ’cause that brings so much joy and purpose.

And so I would love that for for my fellow sensitives and empaths that that they feel like there is a place for you.

42:48

There’s a really important place for you.

We absolutely we need individuals are playing all these different roles, making all these different kinds of contributions, and it can be a place where you feel like you are truly fully yourself in all of the beauty and wonder and creativity that that God gave you and and that that is something to be celebrated.

43:15

So, so that’s really a lot of the heart behind this book, which is deeply personal.

It’s probably the most personal book I’ve ever written and and has certainly changed my perspective on on what it means to engage in the good work of justice.

43:34

Dorcas, I know that your words and your presence with us and then your work as well is going to encourage and empower our community in in some great ways.

So thank you so much for being with us.

43:52

I would love to wrap up with just two questions.

One, I would love to know what is giving you hope right now in the midst of everything going on?

And then also, who are a couple people that you are learning from in this time?

44:13

I’ll start with the first question, OK, It is a difficult time, no question.

I find myself kind of waffling a lot between despair and some measure of hope.

44:32

And, and that’s hard.

It’s and I think especially for those of us who feel really deeply, there is sort of this like knot of pain that that I I feel like it’s just always there now and sorrow.

44:48

And yet I think what is really encouraging me is, you know, there’s this really interesting thing that happens with the human mind, right?

Is any of us who have some sort of artistic events.

You have probably experienced this or, or if you are just an in any kind of creative work, like if you’re a strategizer or something, when you have constraints that can often times push you toward more creativity, more innovation.

45:26

And so under the many, many constraints that people are operating under nowadays, you know, so I’m thinking a lot about local government agencies and nonprofits and specific communities even, you know, academics, all those I see new conversations happening that wouldn’t have happened without this.

45:52

I mean, again, you know, I would much prefer that we weren’t in this place.

But but it is forcing people to become more creative, to find new solutions that maybe they wouldn’t have even thought about before.

It is pushing people together.

46:09

I see like new collaborations forming new partnerships or just people talking across sectors that maybe before wouldn’t have felt the need to work together and now we need one another.

And so, so I actually find hope in that.

46:27

I think this is going to ignite kind of a new sort of energy, right, that there is going to be a response.

We’re still in the beginning stages and these things take time.

It’s not going to happen overnight.

46:44

But but I see sort of new trails being blazed and new ideas being come up with a new innovations and new programs that haven’t been tried before out of necessity.

But at the same time, those could be really good things that have a positive long term impact.

47:07

So, yeah, I, I, that’s, that’s where I find hope is that I even in the midst of the bad news, there are little, you know, kind of pinpricks of light coming through and, and ways in which I see people moving and talking and acting in new ways that could, that could lead us to very good places.

47:34

That’s good.

In terms of who I’m learning from, OK, well, this is not particularly new or original, but I am finding encouragement through the writings and the wisdom of Richard Rohr.

47:58

Nowadays, the need to slow down, to just be in the presence of God, to contemplate, to not react right.

48:15

We are in a hyper reactive age right now and so to not constantly be jumping into the fray and posting stuff on social media is in and of itself a discipline.

But I think it’s a really healthy discipline to just pause and to understand what’s going on within me, what may be going on for other people.

48:38

And and so that’s just been a really helpful framework for me, I think as I’ve been processing through working through all of what is happening in current events.

And then I’ll say also, you know, this is something that my husband talks a lot about.

48:58

So I’m gleaning a lot of this through him, but he’s really excited about.

And therefore that he’s kind of infected me with the same excitement of there.

There does seem to be this growing embrace of faith and spirituality within the younger generation, right?

49:20

Like we’ve been talking so long about millennials, Gen.

Z and beyond, Like they just, they’re leaving the church in droves or not showing up at all.

And there’s, you know, a whole host of things that you could talk about as to why.

And yet, you know, there are podcasts and books and articles now dedicated to this, this movement of people coming back to the church or even just at the very least seeking out God, seeking out divinity, trying to understand spirituality, right.

49:54

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is one of the most secular places in the in the country.

And yet, yeah, even just sort of in casual conversation with people, you find there is this renewed openness to there being this realm of of spirituality and that there is more to humans than just our physical beings, right?

50:20

That that we have spirits and souls.

So.

So that’s also just really encouraging me and, and reminding me that in the midst of a lot of bad news, the Spirit is still at work, that is still present.

50:41

There’s a lot happening and we don’t see the full picture.

We can’t, we’re just not able to with our limited perspectives.

But but it helps to to kind of put everything in that, in that perspective of like, OK, this is 1 moment in time, This too shall pass, right?

51:00

And, and our, our God is forever and our God is always at work and is always moving us toward the good and the just and the righteous.

So so these kinds of stories have been really encouraging to me during this time.

51:17

Yes, indeed, we’re, we’re hearing that from a lot of people and I love it.

It, it gives me hope.

Yes, absolutely.

Yes.

Well, how can our community support you, support your work?

What is the best way for them to do that?

51:34

That is very kind of you to ask.

So I just love connecting with folks and certainly I think this is a time when we all need to encourage one another and be there for one another.

And so certainly feel free to reach out.

My website ischanges.com.

51:52

I’m on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram.

You will probably find I’m not there every day because I’m trying to limit my social media exposure.

But but I am there.

I do love getting messages from folks and meeting new people.

I would love for you to experience one or both of these Bible studies or to check out social justice for the sensitive soul, if that’s something that resonates with you or somebody you love.

52:18

And yeah, I, I hope that you will just join me in in praying that this is I, I pray a lot for kindness.

And it sounds so basic, but I at the same time, I think we’ve kind of just forgotten that how to be kind to one another, how to understand one another, how to be curious instead of critical, how to even just talk to one another as human beings before we dive into politics.

52:56

Maybe you don’t even need to talk about politics with people.

Maybe don’t need to go into the hard questions or social issues.

What does it look like simply just to want to get to know one another and care for one another.

So, so those are the things that are really on my mind nowadays.

53:13

And yeah, I would love to, you know, pray with others about that, that we would see a shift in the way we interact with one another and the way that we try to understand one another rather than setting ourselves apart and dividing ourselves into tribes.

53:33

But but what is it that will really draw us together?

Well, these two Bible studies will definitely help people to see the image of God in in their neighbor.

So thank you be the Bridge community.

53:49

We have two six week interactive Bible studies.

One migration, experiencing God’s care for immigrants and mental health, experiencing God’s care for our mind, body and spirit.

Dorcas, thank you so much for being with us today.

54:07

I am Sarah Kanatzer on behalf of Latasha Morrison and Be the Bridge.

We thank you Dorcas for being with us, and we thank all of our listeners for tuning in.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you for tuning in to the Be the Bridge Podcast.

The Be the Bridge Podcast is brought to you from the nonprofit organization Be the Bridge, which exists to empower people and culture toward racial healing, equity and reconciliation.

54:34

To partner with us to create more resources like this in order to increase racial literacy and pursue racial justice.

Head to Be the bridge.com/give.

Latasha Morrison is the executive producer, Sarah Connatser is the producer and editor, and the theme music is from Ellie Holcomb Song Bridge.

54:54

Until next time, keep pressing on in grace and truth bridge builders.