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In our final Advent episode of the Be the Bridge Podcast, Gina from the Be the Bridge team talks with Counselor, Advocate, TEDx Speaker, and Author of The Adoptee’s Journey Cam Lee Small. They delve into the complexities of love within the context of adoption. They discuss how love is often oversimplified in adoption narratives, masking the deeper issues of loss, trauma, and identity struggles faced by adoptees.
Cam shares his insights as both an adoptee and a licensed counselor, emphasizing the importance of humanizing the adoptee experience and validating their feelings. The conversation also explores the systemic issues surrounding adoption and the need for activism and collective responsibility to address these injustices. They remind listeners that love must be accompanied by justice to be truly meaningful.
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Host & Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison
Producer – Sarah Connatser
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Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.
*this was transcribed by Spotify and has not been checked for errors
0:02
Welcome.
To the Be the Bridge podcast, Be the Bridge exists to empower people and culture toward racial healing, equity, and reconciliation.
Latasha Morrison founded Be the Bridge in 2016 to foster needed dialogue and brave spaces and to give people the tools to pursue racial justice.
0:24
We provide resources and community to do just that, and this podcast is one of those resources.
You’ll hear interviews hosted by Latasha and our team, conversations about current events, and encouragement for your racial literacy journey.
Thank you for listening, subscribing, and engaging in this.
0:42
Important work.
Hey everyone.
Thank you for joining us on the Be the Bridge podcast.
My name is Gina and today we’re going to continue our advent journey.
And this week’s focus is on love.
0:59
But as we reflect on love, it’s important to recognize how love has been used to mask the deeper complexities and systemic issues within the system of adoption.
Love is often presented as the solution to everything.
1:14
Yet we know that love alone cannot heal the loss, trauma, and identity struggles that many adoptees face.
This week, we’re digging into what it truly means to love in a way that acknowledges and addresses these realities.
1:31
Adoption is often framed as an act of love, but this narrative can oversimplify the experience, ignoring the adoptees loss, and it has the potential for a saviour dynamic.
And so first and foremost, before we dive into this conversation, I just want to acknowledge where I’m coming from.
1:50
I am a white adoptive parent.
Sure, I’m other things too.
I’m Appalachian, I’m a daughter, wife, mother.
But I think especially in this conversation, it’s important for me to socially locate myself within the system and just acknowledge that being a wide adoptive parent shapes the way that I see adoption and race.
2:11
And so I’m so excited to introduce our guest on today’s podcast.
His name is Cam Lee Small and he is a licensed professional clinical counselor.
I’m a big fan of his.
I’m I tried to remember when I discovered you, Cam.
2:28
I think it may have been in 2020.
You were giving so much content online, for free I might add, for both adoptees and adopted parents.
Cam was adopted from Korea, and he’s currently the founder of Therapy Redeemed.
2:46
He offers counseling, workshops and training for adoptees and families focusing on mental health and healing from trauma.
Pam is certified in Training for Adoption Competency and recognized by Foster Adopt Minnesota.
3:02
His work has been featured in Adoption Today in The Atlantic.
His book, The Adoptee’s Journey from Loss and Trauma to Healing and Empowerment, explores the complexities of adoption, mental health, and social justice.
What a pleasure to say.
3:18
Welcome back to the podcast, Cam Awesome.
Thank you for having me, Gina.
It’s great to be here.
So I’m going to start out with a simple question that has nothing to do with adoption, but who made you feel loved this year and how did they do it?
3:33
Yeah.
Well, so as I saw this question, so of course, I mean, there’s going to be like the personal people in my life and family, friends and things.
I do want to draw attention to this idea because we’re talking about today the be the Bridge.
3:49
The team certainly made me feel loved because the way I, I was on the podcast previously and I want to recognize the work that goes into making the transcript, uploading all the things, the video, making sure tech works correctly, the work that y’all do behind the scenes to even make an outline and, and questions.
4:09
And that’s just before you hit the record button.
And then during the conversation, you’re opening up space for me to tell my story.
So just love being able to listen and say, can we hear it from your perspective?
We’ll sit with you and that without condemnation, without judgement.
4:25
I’ve appreciated that, certainly in this, you know, informal setting, yet a setting that is so important in the conversations that we have around adoption.
So thank you all.
Be the bridge.
Well, thank you.
Thank you for sharing that.
I can’t take credit for all of the behind the scenes work.
4:42
I just get to show up and ask you questions, which feels like I said a gift to me because I do highly respect your work.
And I just want to thank you for using your life and your story and even your professional vocation to essentially be there for adoptees and also everyone in the adoption constellation.
5:03
So thank you, Pam.
You know, we’ve already talked about adoption is often framed as this simple act of love.
But your work reveals that adoption is far more complicated than that.
For one, every adoption begins with loss, and many adoptees are left alone to grapple with the trauma that comes with that.
5:24
Especially, I think so often as adoptive parents, we focus on childhood and not adulthood.
And it’s during that period of adulthood when what I’ve learned is that so many adoptees kind of begin to question things.
5:40
In your experience as a therapist and an adoptee, how do you help others unpack the complexities of love and loss in adoption?
And what misconceptions about love do you find most harmful to adoptees?
I’ve said this in other spaces, objects can’t heal or objects can’t grieve or wonder about where they came from, but humans can’t.
6:04
My heart is just allowing a humanization of adopting narratives.
So in that that regard, in serving and supporting adoptees who are unpacking loss, grief, trauma, identity, connections to families, it’s really saying that you can talk about that here.
6:20
That’s a human experience.
It’s not.
You’re not a deviant, you’re not overreacting, but we’re widening the scope of what an adoptee can think and feel and do in response to some pretty abnormal situations being separated from culture, family legacy, community safety and expected to almost like immediately quote UN quote attached to to someone else’s.
6:46
I’m not pointing fingers at anyone, you know right now and that we’re just saying that humanizing the adopting narratives, the humanizing the adopting narrative says, tell me what that was like for you.
And I’m not going to get defensive.
I’m not going to have my feelings override that.
So that’s part of, you know, walking alongside of adoptees in a professional setting for me as a clinician.
7:08
And it’s part of how I, you know, encourage adult adoptees especially to say your story matters.
It is not insignificant.
I’m not going to try to project on people to make it more than what they think it is, but inviting them into that and then, you know, encouraging parents, loved ones, other professionals to find their own unique ways to support that process as well.
7:32
Yeah, and I think just validating adoptees feelings is really such an important of this.
And I think so simple even, you know, I parent both biological and adopted children and my biological children are twins and they’re 18 right now.
7:49
And they’re in a space where they are beginning to express things that the way they view things in childhood, you know, things that I did, things that their father did.
And my human reaction, of course, wants to be defensive.
And I’m just realizing how counterproductive that it is.
8:08
And just validating their experience has been so helpful in my relationship with them.
And I can imagine with my daughters, it’s going to be helpful as well.
So if we were to reframe the narrative of love and adoption in a way that really honors that complexity of that experience, how would we do that?
8:29
What would you?
What would that that look like?
Love, I think is so open-ended to the person, specific resources and personalities and backgrounds and context.
So to expect one person to apply and demonstrate love the exact same way as another, that kind of limits us.
8:51
I think in the context of adoption, what I’ve been finding, and I mentioned this before, I’m certainly not the first one to, you know, explore this, but I think love can show up in in a way that when you say the word honor, like for example, for me, Cam, you were from Korea.
9:10
Let’s just forget all of that now because you’re adopted.
Well, I think love might say, Cam, you’re from Korea.
Let’s allow that to be part of who you are, the fullness of who you are.
And let’s learn together, walk together and find ways that not only can God be glorified in that for those who are connecting with the faith background, but how can you acknowledge and learn how to negotiate that in a flexible, adaptive way throughout the rest of your life?
9:39
I want to carry.
I don’t want to call your birth culture a burden, but I want to carry that task with you.
I want to carry the the challenges that may come up with that to celebrations that may be associated.
But I want to walk alongside with you just the way that I think scripture says, like God is a very present help in trouble, but God is also just here with us right on the scene up to something good.
10:02
I don’t want to over spiritualize things, but when we think about love in that way, that’s very different from we’re just celebrating the gotcha day.
We’re just going to go to the Chinese food buffet on your gotcha day and that’s it.
Well, I think love acknowledges that you’re a more multi dimensional than that.
10:22
And how can we, you know, explore that together in all the ages and stages of your life?
That’s beautiful.
So essentially you were talking about one role that adoptive parents can play in supporting adoptees.
And a large part of that is not just celebrating a Gotcha Day A1 time event, but really walking with them day-to-day, learning with them, honoring their culture.
10:50
Is celebrating Gotcha Day even a healthy thing to do?
I know it was very popular at one time and I I don’t know, are people still doing that personally?
We don’t, but what what’s your opinion on that Cam?
I ask families how they feel about it and particularly like the adoptees.
11:10
So, you know, question would be to ask an adoptee growing up in a family if they’re, you know, under 18 or just at any stage in the childhood slash youth face.
How do you feel about this?
What does this mean to you?
And you know, there are different ways to ask that question, like are there parents here in the room?
11:30
Are they worried about upsetting the parents or do they have to have a certain answer they’re performing wise.
But I think it it comes down to the idea that each adoptee is going to have their individual relationship to the experience of God today.
So I want to give space for that.
I think what’s important would be the, the conscious, like intentional dialogue about it so that we’re not just like going with the flow and doing things without thought, but we’re actually thoughtful when we’re hosting events or planning things associated with this very profile and life experience.
12:06
So family separation and transfers of custody and placement.
So really asking the families and adoptees in particular what they think about it.
I, in my personal narrative, my, my parents had an acknowledgement of it.
It wasn’t called Gotcha Day and other adoptees that I’ve talked with that they are fine with it, they enjoy it or they might look forward to it or they have found that it it’s a meaningful connection to their adoptive families.
12:34
And so it’s going to be unique and person specific.
But I think the reason that we’re talking about it is that if we’re solely just doing something like Gotcha Day without acknowledging the gravity of what that day could even represent, we might be doing a a disservice to the child and really everyone in the family and missing out on occasions for support and and presence.
12:59
That’s so helpful.
Thank you for sharing that.
And I love hearing that there’s not A1 size fits all solution, but it really is dependent upon your child, your child’s history and their thoughts and feelings and centering that above ours as adoptive parents.
13:17
So we know that adoption exists within larger systems of power and race and economics.
So how can we expand this concept of love to address systemic justice and equity in these spaces?
13:33
Because the more I learn about the system of adoption as a whole, quite honestly, the more horrified that I am.
And I say that as someone who has been a player, an actor within that system.
And so quite honestly, that, you know, is painful to reckon with the realities of those larger systems at play.
13:59
And so I guess, yeah, my question is, how can we expand our concept of love to include these conversations?
It seems like often this concept of justice and love is left out.
Or it’s love without justice, I guess you could say.
14:19
We’re negotiating how to speak the truth in love, how to enact and practice justice from a, a, a love filled posture.
And we’re referring to not just like the micro level lived experience of like me and my parents, but we’re looking outward to say, well, the world is much bigger than the house that we live in on our street.
14:45
There are there systems and institutions at play.
And so when I met my mom in Korea as an adult, I’m in my, I was like 31 at the time, 30 or 31 and starting to learn more of her story and the, the context of Korea at the time in the 80s and the spirit of the times, the, the pressure or the stigma, not only of having a child out of wedlock, but being a single parent after my dad died.
15:19
And just the, the, the shame that she felt when folks from the church approached her and adoption agency professionals kind of like whispering in her ear.
How could you possibly take care of this kid on your own?
You’re in no shape to do this.
15:36
And there’s no way that you had you’d have the skill or capacity or potential.
The best thing for him is going to be placement into a family, but not just any family, a good Christian white family in America.
So let’s get you situated with an adoption plan and start this process.
15:55
And I think that if we just say that there’s this mother in Korea who made her choice and ultimately her decision, it leaves those other actors or those other components out of it and they are left unaddressed, still kind of operating in the shadows or even just been in broad daylight through different adoption agencies.
16:16
And love can look kind of like what we’re doing now is like maybe asking more births, mothers, birth families to tell their stories, being curious about the other contextual pieces that are going on in the time, and then asking how can we change that?
16:32
Is there anything that needs to be evaluated or examined?
Does any part of this need to repent?
Or what does repentance look like?
Turning in a different direction, maybe acknowledging what has been unhelpful about it, and then finding different ways to serve the people that are involved in that kind of process.
16:51
So me just hearing some of that during my birth search and reunion trip, really sort of like fueled, they call that that fifth touch point in adopted consciousness, forgiveness and activism.
And like, it’s not my place to condemn people who are a part of this and say that you’re bad, I’m good, I’m superior, you’re not, that’s not my place.
17:13
But there’s a there’s a layer, there’s a way to say what happened has happened.
We’re acknowledging that and activism.
How can we be part of the restoration, making all things new?
How can we work together, speak the truth and love and Co create new ways for families to thrive?
17:32
And perhaps the default, if it was adoption or if the default was separate the child from the family, maybe there are different options that we can consider now that are more contemporary and I guess just more inclusive of these other situational factors.
17:50
I think when love says we want to protect, we want to find truth.
We want to consider other ways, not insist on this one way, but just being in the kindness of that we have a lot of potential as a fellowship, as a community to find that path and even receive it.
18:08
If, if that’s something that we’re we’re praying for, God show us that way.
We can’t do this on our own.
Gosh, it’s so there’s so much there that I want to unpack a little bit.
And I just want to first of all, thank you for sharing that part of your story.
18:23
And I think that’s one thing that I love about your book is that you really add your personal perspective, but you’re talking about a lot of these larger systemic issues and kind of showing how your story played out within that and the reality.
18:39
I mean, first, I just want to hold space for your first mom and the pain and the shame that society laid upon her for becoming pregnant first, you know, and then also the pain of losing her partner in that and feeling like there was no other option.
19:01
Well, that plays out all the time.
I think still contemporary in contemporary times within the United States and all around the world because whether it is, let’s look at international adoption, many first moms believe that and are being actually, they can be preyed upon.
19:22
We’re learning that now and they’re being told that this, you know, you can’t raise your child in this poverty or whatever this situation is.
And the best, most unselfish thing you could do for the child is to make this decision to take the child to the orphanage where they can feed the child and all of that.
19:42
It’s just, will we ever get to a place in society where we are helping families stay together and addressing some of those larger systemic issues?
I mean, definitely.
For instance, my one of my daughter’s is adopted from Haiti and learning about the history of Haiti.
20:03
Learning about the role of France and of course, even the United States and the exploitation of Haiti that has not only happened historically but is still happening presently.
You know, it’s just, it feels like so huge, I guess.
20:21
And there’s a part of me that feels, well, orphanages are really awful places.
You know, there’s been a lot of research done by JK Rowling and her foundation, I think it’s called the Lumos Foundation or Lima’s Foundation that basically lays out all the harm that it can do to the development of children.
20:46
And yet we’re still funding this system of like funneling poor children into orphanages and having mostly because the statistics say wide adopted parents come in and remove the child.
21:02
But instead of doing that, why not help the country?
Why not help the people?
Why not stop exploiting?
Why not tell the truth about that history?
I mean, even in my process for the international adoption, not once.
21:18
Well, and I confess I should have made the choice to learn that history prior.
I learned a brief version of it.
But you know, it was years after the adoption that I learned, for instance, that the United States actually occupied Haiti at one point and took money from Haiti’s treasury.
21:39
These are great injustices.
So I guess all that to say is the system feels so big and overwhelming.
And especially I know for myself, I’ve felt so disillusioned.
I’ve felt sad, I’ve felt angry.
21:57
You know, I’ve, I’ve, where do we go from here?
I think, and what you’re saying, I believe in what you’re advocating for is, is really that activism.
And but how, I guess how, how can white adoptive parents specifically walk this out in a practical, tangible way?
22:17
So not just with walking with their children, but really trying to be voices in a system that is we believe is broken and not.
Working even the way.
That was a big question, a long question, sorry.
22:34
No, I mean.
I gave you a mouthful there.
What you are doing, I mean you’re you’re modeling this self reflective process and there are pieces of it that don’t come naturally to us.
It’s not like we’re driving to the gas station every day thinking about our involvement in these weak systems.
22:52
I mean, the fact that you’ve carved out time and space in your life to unpack that and give yourself grace, but also keep yourself or just like receive conviction to take action.
That’s what we’re modeling here.
And then we’re openly dialoguing about it.
23:09
Not to catch each other’s tail and say, gotcha, you did some bad stuff, but to move forward.
It’s a constructive Doctor David Paulson, who taught at the Christian Counseling Education Foundation, calls this the constructive displeasure of mercy.
So it’s the ability to say, yes, woe to those who call bad good and call good bad.
23:32
And what can we do differently constructively to address the rock, to address the injustice?
So yes, we want to take time to just sit and process and hold that.
And then we want to take action, make changes.
23:48
So for example, I’ll give a, a tangible expression of, of practice here.
Just recently there was a documentary released by PBS Frontline called South Korea’s Adoption Reckoning.
And this documentary didn’t necessarily present like new information, but it presented information in a new way on this very public multimedia platform about the practices of adoption in Korea in the 50s, sixties, 70s, up to present moment.
24:16
And kind of gave space for people in the adoption community and adopted community to share their stories about falsified records, birth families being coerced into placement plans.
The organizations involved.
We’re also pressuring the staff members to, to corrupt collaborate in this sort of like trafficking.
24:39
And I’m using that word hesitantly, carefully, but in a sense, that’s what they’re in this documentary.
They’re they’re exposing that.
So an adoptive parent wondering, well, what can I do to be part of the change?
It’s something as simple as watch that documentary, like you said, Gina, like you took time to learn about the history.
24:57
You didn’t say, well, it’s a sunk cost.
It’s too late now, but you know it.
If I didn’t do it the right way, why even learn anymore at all?
No, you said, well, actually, today’s a great day to start.
Let me get in the weeds here and start carving, carving out some trails.
25:13
OK.
So watch the documentary, learn about adoptee citizenship.
So the Adoptee Citizenship Act and trying to figure out this sort of like huge oversight in loophole that denies international adoptees US citizenship.
25:32
Well, maybe an adoptive parent can take an hour or two out of the day and Start learning about that and Start learning about how they can enact change or appeal to their Congress or just different representatives involved.
25:48
If you go to adopt these United, that’s an organization, they actually have postcards that are pre filled templated that you can order and then fill out personally according to your state and sent.
And that’s a tangible way that you can be part of the systemic change.
26:04
Now, it doesn’t mean that it’s going to be restored overnight because you sent the one postcard, but it does mean that you’re actively participating in the change that there’s that that’s on the outward level.
Now, how about between a parent and their child?
26:20
You know, what can we do?
So, and this is where it’s going to be personalized because maybe there are some adult adoptees that don’t want to have this conversation with their adoptive parents.
It just feels overwhelming.
We don’t know what to say.
There’s there’s no script.
Maybe emotions are charged and I’m just not ready for that right now.
26:39
The emotional bandwidth, it’s just I’ll pass and that’s.
Pretty common, correct?
From what I’ve heard from adult adoptees, it’s pretty common to feel that way.
It’s a common experience.
Yep.
It can be a common experience.
And then for adoptees who do want to do that, I think the in sort of pulling off the Band-Aid, there just needs to be an open communication about, hey, you know, I saw this documentary and I know there’s just probably a lot going on about it.
27:09
I wonder if you ever want to talk about that.
We’re open.
We’re doing some research on our end and we’re learning a lot and would be happy to talk with you about it.
You don’t have to talk about it right now.
You don’t even have to answer.
We just want to let you know that you could send that in a voicemail, in e-mail, a text, whatever, but in ripping the bandit off, you just saying essentially in sending that message, you’re also sending the relational cue that’s on the table.
27:38
Now you’re allowed to talk about that.
And we will enter the conversation with the heart of compassion and listening.
That’s your Sonny.
And if they never mention it, that’s OK.
Then you’re going to follow their lead.
So that’s kind of a chance, a tangible thing, but in yeah, in terms of like what can we be doing?
27:55
I have this grid, it’s part of a framework called adoption literacy, but it’s just learning how to own our part in the story.
Adoptees and non adoptees alike, we’re all learning how to own our part in the story.
And the main component of that is making more space for the adoptive voice.
28:12
So adopted to the adoptive parent listening to right now, how can you in your unique context, whether you’re driving in a car, doing laundry or whatever, I, I don’t know, but you’re the only one in your life who can explore and be creative about.
How can you make more space for the adoptive voice and invite not just your adoptee to tell more about this story and give them support, but adoptee communities in general?
28:35
How do I elevate adoptee voices so that we can learn more and you can work that out for yourself?
But that’s really the heart behind some tangible things that we can do together.
There’s there’s more, but for the context of our conversation right now, that’s a great place to start.
28:52
No, I love that.
And I think what you’re saying as well, especially in white culture and the culture that I grew up in, it’s we had such a focus on individualism and it’s hard to for us to see ourselves as part of a collective, but we too have and have had collective power like Air vote, Air vote matters, electing representatives who will talk about even issues around transracial adoption that matters.
29:24
And so I think we just, I know for myself, I have to constantly remind myself that I’m not just an individual, that I’m part of a voting bloc.
I’m part of a community I’m part of, you know, this larger vision.
29:40
So thank you, Cam, that’s been so helpful.
I really appreciate your time.
I think with Advent, the connection, at least for this conversation, is Advent invites us into a space of waiting, of lamenting the brokenness of that yearning for restoration.
30:00
And that’s really where I’m finding myself, have been finding myself.
It feels like a very long season of, you know, feeling that yearning, that restoration.
And so thank you for reminding us that love without deeds and love without justice is is really not love at all.
30:22
And thank you for your work.
Thanks for leading the conversation, facilitating such an open space, Gina.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge Podcast.
To find out more about Be the Bridge and what we offer, visit bethebridge.com.
30:39
Partner with us in this work at bethebridge.com/give, Connect with us on social media, and remember, you are not alone in your pursuit of righteousness and justice.
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