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In this conversation, Terry Wildman joins Sarah Connatser to explore the themes of joy, storytelling, and Indigenous perspectives during the Advent season. Terry shares about his new children’s book Birth of the Chosen One, and they talk about the importance of names.
They discuss different passages of Scripture (specifically in the First Nations Version) and the connections between joy, suffering, and spiritual growth. This conversation will inspire you and invite you into a refreshing understanding of Christmas.
Join in the conversation on our social media pages on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn to let us know your thoughts on this episode!
Host & Executive Producer – Latasha Morrison
Producer – Sarah Connatser
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Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.
*this was transcribed by Spotify and has not been checked for errors
0:02
Welcome to the Be the Bridge podcast.
Be the Bridge exists to empower people and culture toward racial healing, equity, and reconciliation.
Latasha Morrison founded Be the Bridge in 2016 to foster needed dialogue and brave spaces, and to give people the tools.
0:22
To pursue racial justice.
We provide resources and community to do just that, and this podcast is one of those resources.
You’ll hear interviews hosted by Latasha and our team, conversations about current events, and encouragement for your racial literacy journey.
0:39
Thank you for listening, subscribing and engaging in this important work.
Hello, Be the Bridge community.
Thank you for tuning into our Advent series.
My name is Sarah Kanatzer.
I am the marketing and communications manager and podcast producer here at Be the Bridge.
0:58
And I am thrilled to have Terry Wildman here with us.
He joined us last year on the podcast and we talked about the First Nation version and, and all the work that went into that.
And so we have him here today as we talk about Joy.
1:14
So welcome, Terry.
We’re glad to have you here.
It’s good to be here and and just to to be part of this to I, I’d love and a lot of our native people, I’ll talk about that later.
Love the Advent season and Christmas.
1:30
Love, love that.
Do you mind giving a an introduction in your native language to our community?
Sure Vujuniji Bamata Zig Gichi Animeki Manomash Kiki Manadu Indigo Terry Wildman and Dishnikaz Nimi Nuaya Gaiye Niman Wayne Dom Uma Ayayan Nungum.
1:50
So what I said was basically hello my friends who share this life together with me.
My spirit name that was given to me is Gichi and Nimiki Manomash Kiki Manadu, which means voice of great Thunder with a good medicine spirit, but I’m also known as Terry Wildman.
It feels good to be here with you today, with all of you in this place.
2:09
So I want to add to that and say I was born and raised in Michigan.
My ancestry includes Ojibwe from Ontario, Canada, Yaqui from Sonora, Mexico, as well as English, German and Spaniard.
I am married to Darlene Wildman and have five children, 8 grandchildren, 4 great grandchildren and my wife and I currently live in Maricopa, AZ on the traditional lands of the Pima and the Taunotham people.
2:34
It’s good to be here.
So glad to have you and love hearing about your family.
And I bet Christmas time is an exciting time with all of the grandchildren and everything.
So let’s talk about your new book, Birth of the Chosen Ones, a First Nations retelling of the Christmas story.
2:54
I’d love for you to.
Yep, yay, there it is.
How do you see this book impacting families as they read it together this Advent season?
Well, one of the things I love about the book and and is, is it’s a story.
And our native people love storytelling and children love storytelling.
3:14
Children love stories.
And one thing nice about the book is, is it it presents a story from a different cultural perspective.
You know, and then and sometimes people say, well, how can you do that?
Well, it’s been done all over the world.
You know, many different cultures present Jesus within the with the look of and feel of their own cultures, But yet not not any books were done in North America from an indigenous perspective.
3:40
So I’m glad that that, that this one’s out there and this one is telling that story.
And, and I as families read it.
One of the things is it, it will just, again, I hope it will get children asking questions.
3:59
Oh, look, those look like Indian tents or, you know, teepees.
And, and, and then the parents can kind of walk them through this idea, you know, and, and, and the whole idea, think about it is imagination.
So if you were going to tell a story without images in front of you in a culture and you say, well, here’s this man, he was born here and he was born, you’re going to as an Indigenous person, you’re going to imagine your location, you’re going to imagine the animals around you.
4:32
You’re going to imagine the kind of buildings would be, you know, the, the lodges or the tents or teepees that we have as Indigenous people.
So, so I think it’s a it’s a normal thing to let your imagination bring Jesus into your own own culture.
4:49
Europeans have done that a long time.
And again, I love it, having it, seeing it in the Jewish culture also.
And I think that’s important that that, you know, I mean, that’s the original culture of the story happens in but but I believe it’s a universal story that can transcend, you know, cultures in a way.
5:07
Definitely, and I love even just flipping through it.
I love the illustrations.
How did you get connected to the illustrators?
Let’s see Hannah and Holly Buchanan, yeah, sisters and then members of the Miami Nation of Indiana.
5:23
So I’d love to hear a little bit of that that story.
Yeah.
Well, way back in, in the year, well, it was 2010, Darlene and I moved to Fort Wayne, IN and we got involved with helping the churches and the, the local Miami Nation of Indians of Indiana are there.
5:42
They live there and near Fort Wayne.
It’s a, it’s a little ways away, but Fort Wayne, IN is their original village.
It’s the place where their people lived before they were removed by our government to other places, you know, but they were moved and they had a, a large reservation for a while in Indiana and until the government kind of pushed, pushed them off and everything.
6:06
But we started making connections in Indiana because we wanted to see reconciliation happening between our native people and the churches mainly.
And so Darlene and I lived in in Indiana and, and made connections.
6:23
It was a long process and, and we honored the, the local tribal council, got together with the churches, the churches we helped to write a, an acknowledgement of what’s happened and a commitment to a better future and all these things.
And then it was signed in front of all the, the, the tribal elders that were there, the tribal council that was there, the chief was there, the spiritual leader of the tribe was there then.
6:48
So Hannah and our two, our 2 girls, Hannah and Holly, they were really tiny when, when this started when they were younger, but, but again, they’re the, the daughters of the spiritual leader of the tribe, Steve.
7:05
And so, so we had been looking for an artist and so many of our native people are in demand to be artists.
And now we’re, we’re having a hard time finding an artist for it.
And when we did the inner varsity did the, the Urbana gathering in 2018, I got involved in that because it was going to be in Indianapolis, which is the home, the every place where the Miami Nation is from.
7:30
They’re the leadership tribe of that area.
So as we were putting this together, of course, Hannah and Holly came to to the Urbana event.
They danced on the platform as as the Miami drum played and we did protocol there and but we had gatherings off the platform.
7:49
We had a room and they were both there and and I’m sitting there thinking Darlene looking we’re going.
We wanted to talk with them.
We found out that they actually went to art school.
They, they were graduates of art school.
So we started talking to them about would they be interested in being artists for this Christmas book?
8:07
And they were.
And so so we submitted their their names and, and got them connected with Inter Varsity Press and it started the process that they would become the artist.
And they did, and they did a wonderful job.
I love that, love that.
8:23
There’s a lot of relationship involved in this story and a lot of prayer that went into it and in connection with reconciliation and everything, you know.
So yeah.
That’s beautiful.
I love hearing the back story on that and going back to something that you said at the beginning about how Indigenous people love the season of Advent, what unique perspectives do you see Indigenous leaders bringing to the season?
8:52
Well, you know our native people.
We have many stories about the coming of of the the the crater sending someone to help us.
You know, the, some of our people on the East Coast had the story about the great peacemaker who was actually born of a virgin.
9:12
And he came and he had miraculous powers and he helped Six Nations that were warring against each other and fighting and hurting, killing each other.
Terrible things were going on.
And, and he brought a message of peace and healing and reconciliation.
9:28
And the Six Nations became what we call the Six Nations Confederacy.
But it was his, his voice and and his wisdom.
And so there’s, there’s this.
So the idea that the creator is going to do something kind of supernatural to help people is part of our native understanding of how the creator works in our world.
9:53
But sometimes with our native stories, it’s not just human beings, sometimes it’s animals or plants and different things like this.
So there’s, I would say there’s a big holistic story in the way we understand, but also coming around to that time of year that Christmas is celebrated.
10:18
It comes at, at the, the winter connection there where the sun, it looks like the sun.
The days got shorter and shorter and shorter.
The sun’s going to die, but all of a sudden it stops and it’s reborn.
OK, so you have the rebirth of the sun kind of stories that we have and, and in in the in the Northwest and in other places, our tribes have a story of, of a Raven who somebody had stolen the sun and hidden it away and and there was darkness in the world.
10:52
And this and this Raven comes along and by the sent by the creator and the Raven actually becomes a little pine needle and gets swallowed by a a native girl and she gets pregnant and and bursts, bursts, you know, a child.
11:08
And that child basically helps rescue the sun from this evil person.
And the sun’s put back into the sky and the light and joy has come back in the world again.
And it’s a story that is told around the same kind of season.
So there’s, you know, so our native people love these stories, you know, But again, we see the story of Jesus as a story that historically we can go back to.
11:31
Now, some of our native stories have a mythology to them.
There’s a mythological aspect to them, but that doesn’t make them any less important stories because because there’s the idea of darkness and light, of a need for us to be rescued and brought into something better as human beings, because we can lose our way.
11:52
That’s so true, that’s so true.
Those themes of, of reconciliation and rebirth and and light and darkness and those are, those are seen in stories and and we need them.
They they help us just like Jesus parables, right?
12:08
And so Native people will, you know, and again when we lived, Darlene, I lived on the Hopi rise for five years.
Hopi’s loved to celebrate Christmas.
A lot of them they, they don’t go to church, they love to celebrate Christmas and many of them will bring the story of Jesus into Christmas.
12:24
Also, they understand that it connects to him, even though it’s been commercialized and there’s Santa Claus and there’s other things, you know, and, and, and you know, that story’s been kind of pulled away from Jesus for some people.
But but again, our native people understand that story and they and many native churches will have some kind of a storytelling time during during that time telling the story of Jesus and his birth.
12:50
It’s a wonderful story.
We’re going to talk talk about the aspects of that story today.
Yes, definitely.
One thing I’m excited about in birth of the Chosen 1 and, and then getting to read it to, to my young, young kids is the names.
13:06
And that’s one thing I know many, many of my fellow bridge builders love about the First Nations version is reading the names in in there that are different than we typically read in in other translations.
And so whether readers are are reading the the ancestry accounts in Matthew in the First Nations version, or they’re they’re reading from birth of the Chosen 1 and they see bitter tears or he gives sons the these, these indigenous names give us a fresh look at people in Scripture.
13:37
So when people are reading these names in such a familiar story like the Christmas story, how do you hope that their perspective shifts?
Well, you know, again, the idea that there’s more to the story than sometimes we’ve been told and that, you know, for our traditional, our native people, traditionally our names meant something important about our identity, about who we were, about what our role is in our community, in our village, what clan we’re born into.
14:11
You get a clan name, things like this.
And it was very similar for the Hebrew people in the story of the Bible.
They had names that and they were born into clans.
They were born into tribes, so to speak.
There were clans also involved in that.
And so, so names identify things.
14:31
So for Jesus, creator sets free his name identifies something he’s called to do.
He’s been chosen, he’s the chosen one called to to set people free from their bad hearts and broken ways.
And so so I, I hope it’ll make non indigenous people just interested in going deeper into the story to take another look at this story to say, well, I didn’t know his name meant that.
14:58
And it kind of fits in the story, doesn’t it?
Right.
Even the idea of Emmanuel, God is with us, it being a prophecy that Jesus fulfills the idea of God being with us and that is found in a name.
Right.
15:14
You know, and so, yeah, names are important and, and I think it would be good for all of us to recover that those concepts.
I know that growing up, I didn’t know the meaning of my name.
I was given my birth name Terry.
So I had to really think about it and, and, and, and look at the different meanings of where Terry comes from, you know, and depending on which language route you go into, you get a little different meaning.
15:38
I could even mean Terra from the from the idea of land or Earth and, and things like that.
So I, I hope that people can see the value in that.
I, I hope that one thing children might do is go.
What does my name mean?
Yes.
Their mom and dad you know and inner Varsity Press.
15:57
If you go on their website to where this is, they have a name matching game you can download Wow to do with the children matching the the names in the birth of the chosen 1, matching those names to the to the more standard names that they’re used to hearing.
16:14
Oh, crater sets free.
Oh, that’s Jesus.
Oh looks brave as Herod, you know, because his name means hero, you know.
But we we said looks brave because he only looks brave.
Right.
Yep, Yep.
So, you know, those are some of the things that that it’ll raise interest for people about our native cultures and our native ways and how, how there is a bridge with our native spirituality and Christianity and we should we should start bridging that gap more and more.
16:46
Definitely, I love what you said earlier about curiosity.
And so even I, I hope this brings about some curiosity in the kids, but also in the grown-ups who are reading that.
So as we get into joy and the Advent season, there are a couple passages that that stick out to me in the New Testament about joy.
17:09
And so I’d love to read a few of those and kind of talk about, talk about some of the themes that we see.
But one thing that even on our Be the Bridge staff team, we talk about how the First Nations version has just kind of renewed given us a, a fresh perspective in in a renewed sense of of, of hope and and light as we read, as we read scripture and it’s been it’s been really special.
17:39
James one two through 4, says my sacred family members, whenever your trust in the Great Spirit is tested, count it as a reason to dance for joy.
For you know that when you when your trust is put to the test, your ability to stand firm grows stronger.
17:57
So keep standing firm until you have passed the test.
Then you will have gained all the maturity and strength of character needed to finish walking the good Rd.
I love.
I love that visual of not just counting something as joy, but that when, when you experience suffering, you’re, you’re actually empowered to dance for joy.
18:20
That’s something that’s a phrase we don’t hear often and and I love that.
Yeah, our native people really understood in some sense the value of suffering because when we choose, you know, even when you fast, you’re entering into a suffering time, right.
18:38
And So what?
Why do we fast?
Well, it reminds us that there are hungry people out there, and it helps us to identify with hunger and others and pray for them.
And, and so, and also fasting helps us draw nearer to the spiritual part of our being rather than the physical part of our being, you know, And so our spirits get stronger as our bodies get weaker.
19:04
And our native people understood that practice and we fasted a lot before our ceremonies, before our prayers, we would fast, we would pray.
So we understand that.
And so James is bringing out something that’s very understandable to our indigenous culture.
19:20
We have many, we have some ceremonies where we actually go beyond fasting and we go in the sweat lodge and it’s hot and there’s heat and we’re sweating in it.
And and, and, and to actually go deeper into this sense of, of, of suffering, but not just suffering to for your own sake, but suffering.
19:40
To identify that we are living in a world that has some, has suffering in it and we don’t want to forget, even though we might have a good, we don’t want to forget that others are suffering.
So it helps us to remember.
Yeah, yeah.
That gives us joy, you know, in the sense, but also suffering causes us to grow, to become spiritually stronger if if we stay.
20:05
You know, I mean you can run away from suffering.
Right.
But if we can embrace it and if we suffer for the right reasons, you know, I mean the scripture in Peter, I think it is.
It tells us, hey, don’t suffer from being a being a numbskull.
20:21
I’m, you know, don’t suffer for doing bad stuff.
You can do bad stuff and you suffer for it.
Well, that you deserve it, you know, but when you suffer for, for standing up for what’s good and right, and when you suffer for your, for your faith and for your spirituality, that’s a good kind of suffering that’s going to cause you to grow stronger, that’s going to cause you to mature.
20:42
And, and so I, I see all those things in there and I don’t see those as different concepts between a lot of what our native people understand and what the Bible teaches.
So I see it one of those, it’s one of those common ground aspects.
20:57
Right.
Yeah, there’s another passage that that is pretty common, but Romans 1212, most people would know it as rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
But the First Nations version says let hope make your heart glad.
21:13
Keep sending your voice to the Great Spirit even when the road gets hard to walk.
Yeah, sometimes, you know, you weren’t used the word patience, you know, and tribulation.
I mean, who uses tribulation in our common, even in our common everyday language?
21:30
Oh, I’m having such tribulation at work.
You know, you don’t say we don’t people don’t say say I’m having a hard time at work.
You’re right, I’m struggling at work, but not I’m having tribulation, you know, and so using other words that mean basically the same things, but some of these words, tribulation doesn’t always give you give you a really good picture of what that means.
21:53
But when you say when the road gets hard to walk, you understand that idea that, that sometimes life gets hard, you know, so that when, when things get hard, we persevere in prayer, we, we pray more and, and then the hope we have that if we pray and if we keep going and not give up, it’s going to produce something really good.
22:18
So hope is about what these things can produce, not what they will produce, but what they can produce When we, when we hang in there, when we, when we keep sending our voice, keep praying, keep looking to things.
So, so yeah, it’s just, you know, the wording’s different, the meanings are the same.
22:36
But I like the First Nation version because it it connects more organically to us in life and and to our bodies and how we how we experience the world.
Right.
Even the even the phrase of making your heart glad instead of just rejoice.
22:55
Right.
All right.
That I, I can take that in that that that means something.
Yeah.
Then going back to the concept of dancing with joy in Philippians 4, four through 6, it says always dance with joy before our honored chief.
23:12
I will say it again, dance with joy.
Let everyone see how kind and thoughtful you are.
Our honored chief is close at hand.
Do not let your hearts be weighed down with anything.
Instead, with every step you take, send your voice to the great Spirit asking him for the things you need.
23:31
And in all your prayers, remember to give him thanks.
And so in the in that passage especially, I love seeing how there’s this concept of, of needing to ask for things, but also giving thanks at the same time of, of suffering, but then being able to dance with joy you even as we’re tested to to keep going to, to dance with joy.
23:55
When you think about joy, what comes to your mind?
Well, joy is always an anticipate part of an anticipation of something better.
So when we were rejoicing, suffering, we’re not happy that we’re suffering, right?
But we’re rejoicing in what is it in, in a promise of something better.
24:15
You know, when, when our at a powwow, when some of our natives dance, we dance our prayers.
But sometimes we dance for healing for people.
And there’s joy in our dancing because we were, it’s a part of praying.
We dance our prayers.
It’s a part of praying for benefit for somebody.
24:33
And we believe that our prayers are really going to make a difference.
And that’s what, where joy is.
And that’s where our hearts can get glad because prayer does work and we can trust the Creator for better things.
And so I guess the theme, I mean, look at Romans and look at what we just did here.
24:53
The themes are the same that are found in there.
So, yeah.
And, and the giving of thanks, well, in our, in our native culture, boy, it’s about giving thanks all the time.
We give thanks to the creator for all of creation.
We give thanks to the created things, you know, to the created things because they’re doing things that the creator, you know, made them to do.
25:19
But like, say if somebody came up to me and and and fed me a meal, I’d give thanks to that person.
Right.
Doesn’t mean I’m worshipping that person.
OK, well, when a plant feeds us, we give thanks to the plant because it’s doing a good thing.
25:38
You know, it’s actually sacrificing itself for us and it’s teaching us the value of sacrifice.
So those are some of the, the bridges that, you know, that I think will be helpful.
As people read the First Nation version, the I think these connections become clearer and, and cause us to, to read it a little bit differently.
26:00
Because I believe our indigenous peoples, not only in North America but other places, have a perspective that comes from the Creator that that that we need to incorporate into our understanding to have a fully rounded understanding of the Bible rather than a monocultural view of it.
26:19
Right, definitely there’s lots that we can learn and and like you said, bridge that gap.
One thing is even this will come out after the election, but we’re recording before it.
So we don’t necessarily know what is happening, what it, what is going to happen, but nevertheless, we know there’s a lot of suffering in the world here in in the United States, but then abroad with wars, with famine.
26:49
And so as we, as we talk about joy, so we talk about Advent and the anticipation season.
What, what encouragement can you give the Be the Bridge community to be able to hold on to joy in the midst of of all the suffering we either endure or that that we see?
27:09
You know, sometimes, I mean, that’s a hard question.
It’s the question we all wrestle with, right?
The suffering in the world doesn’t matter where you’re you are.
Why is this happening to us?
Why is this suffering going on?
27:25
And you might be able to blame this.
You can blame that you can.
Sometimes it’s obvious where, where it’s coming time, but sometimes it’s not so obvious, you know, you know, why am I sick?
Why did I get this disease at a time when I needed to be doing this?
Or why are my kids sick or whatever it is and, and, and, and such.
27:46
So, you know, as far as encouragement goes, is the idea and the belief that the the creator has let me connect it to, to the story of Advent.
OK, Think of Jesus being born into the world so that creator joins us in our suffering.
28:09
So part of Advent isn’t just this big cute little baby being born, you know, it’s about crater coming.
And he has to go through the birth process, which is suffering.
OK, There’s a, there’s an idea of suffering of, of, of, of a birth pains of something.
28:29
And then Jesus is born into a Dark World.
There’s an empire ruling over his Jewish people that he’s born into.
There’s a darkness at his birth.
A Jewish king tries to kill him.
You know, these are things.
28:46
I mean, we even left that part out of the children’s book, you know, because we want parents to be able to abroad that when it’s time, you know, but the the joy is that Jesus was born for the purpose of undoing the darkness of undoing these wrongs, of bringing bringing joy to to suffering and and his very life is the beginning of the creator.
29:16
I shouldn’t say the beginning.
It’s the, it’s the what I feel is the most important birth that’s happened to bring creators purposes for joy in the world to into existence.
So the joy comes from knowing that this birth is going to bring about changes in people’s lives and changes in the world that are positive and good changes and changes that will bring healing and justice to people.
29:44
And, and, and, and so that’s the encouragement I can give.
You know, when you’re suffering, you don’t sometimes you don’t feel really encouraged and and you need good stories.
Oh yeah, you know what?
When I grandpa would, you know, your grandfather, you know, he’s like, you know, when I was your age, I got sick too.
30:04
But you know what?
I’m better now.
This is going to this is going to get over.
You’re going to be healed.
You’re going to get better.
And and that’s, that’s the idea is, is joy is in the end, I think joy and anticipation and hope go right hand in hand because it’s only the hope that gives you the joy.
30:25
Right.
Not the suffering in itself.
Right, yes, yes, that makes me think of connecting it to another story.
But but the Easter story and how, you know, he, he endured the cross for the joy set before him and endured the cross.
30:43
So, yeah.
And as we wrap up today, the one thing we’re asking each each person who’s joining us for the series is how do you see justice as part of the story and season of Advent?
Well, one of the things one of as I translated the First Nation version, I’m going to open see if I can find this verse.
31:04
It’s what we call the Mary’s prayer after she visits Elizabeth.
I think.
What is it called?
The Magnificat called the Magnificat.
Why?
Because it’s magnificent, wonderful prayer.
But what is it you see, right here is the story of where joy is coming from.
31:24
Because she says in in the standard translation, my soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices.
Oh, she’s rejoicing right here because and, and let me let me move to the I’m I got to move down on the on the 1st nation side of I have two translations side by side.
31:45
And here’s what she says from deep in my heart.
I dance with joy to honor the great Spirit, even though I am small and weak.
He noticed me even though I then he says now I will be looked up to by all the mighty one has lifted me up.
32:04
His name is sacred.
He is the great and holy One.
And then I add in there.
Her face seemed to shine as she continued.
That’s a storytelling element, you know.
He shows kindness and pity both to children and elders who respect him.
32:20
His strong arm has brought low.
Oh, why is she rejoicing?
Because this birth marks the Creator continuing to bring down the ones who think they are better than others.
The arrogant ones.
32:36
He’s bringing them down, and he’s counting coup with arrogant warrior chiefs.
But he puts a headdress of honor on the ones with humble hearts.
She smiled, looks up to the sky, and shouted for joy.
Then he prepares a great feast for the ones who are hungry, but he sends the fat ones home with empty bellies.
32:54
He has been kind to the tribes of wrestles with creator and he has remembered the ancient promise he made to our ancestors, father of many nations.
And one of the things about that is she is rejoicing in the fact that just that this birth is a sign that God is, is continuing to bring his justice in the world.
33:18
And that God has not forgotten that he’s going, that he’s going to do this.
And he this is this is the one of the defining moments of, of the beginning of a great time where justice will spread through a message that will be embodied and embraced by others who will continue to carry this message in this light to other people.
33:42
And who will join with the creator, who will be willing to suffer so that others can hear the message and who will also speak truth to power.
Like Mary’s talking about here.
There are people in charge that aren’t doing a good job.
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They’re not doing what creator called governments to do.
He called them to to to bring justice, to bring to care for the poor, the marginalized, the immigrant, all these all these different things that that if you read the book of Psalms, which we’re doing, which we’re doing will be coming up.
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But as I read through the book of Psalms, this is the message over and over and over again is how much creator cares for the poor of the weak.
And look at how he brought Jesus into the world.
He could have been born of maybe, maybe some high-ranking politician person in Israel.
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You know, he could have been born in the Sadducee or a priest with with privilege and power.
But he was born to connect to the poorest of all.
Even in the Advent story when they take Jesus to be be to perform his ceremony, his naming ceremony, she at that ceremony, there’s there’s the promise, there’s the thing.
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But also, and I and I love this part of it.
Simeon says to her.
He’s going to be a sign that will be spoken against and he says to her, and this is where justice comes in and he’s he’s going to be a sign they’ll be spoken against and he will cause the rising and downfall of many.
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And he says, but a sword will Pierce your heart.
So she knew, you know, that combined with this beautiful hope that she could rejoice in, there was going to be suffering that would take place and her own son would be attacked, marginalized.
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And eventually when we see him crucified, she’s right there and she probably remembers this moment when the sword pierces her heart, you know, but justice is coming into the world and, and, and it’s coming through an unusual way, not a top down power, but a bottom up serving.
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That’s how justice comes in the world.
So that would be my my take on that.
Amen, Amen.
Not the top down, but the bottom up serving.
Amen.
And thank you for reading Mary’s song to us.
You’re welcome.
Yes, as her heart was full of gladness.
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May ours be as well.
Well, Mr. Terry Wildman, thank you so much for joining us on the Be the Bridge podcast.
Thank you for helping us walk through this Advent season a little bit better.
Thank you.
We’re we’re better because because you’re a part of us and and you’re walking alongside of us.
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So thank you.
I always say at the end of my podcast and interviews and stuff, Miguech listen Dawie, thank you for listening.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for listening to the Be the Bridge podcast.
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