Episode 105 | Love First: Ending Hate Before it’s Too Late with Don and Susan McLaughlin

Hi be the Bridge Community.

What you’re about to listen to is a Facebook live interview that we had in the past that we thought that will be helpful for this season in our country.

So, I want you to sit back and listen because this information could be helpful and hopeful.

And so, as we always say, we want you to listen, we want you to learn, we want you to lament and we want you to leverage, so enjoy You’re listening to sounds of Justice.

A be the bridge podcast I’m here with Don Mclaughlin Laughlin, right?

Yep.

And Susan, and Steven, they are from North Atlanta Church of Christ and I’ll say that again.

And we’re doing our monthly beat btb live interview.

And so, this is going to be a great interview.

So if you guys are sitting there and you’ve wondered, How do we Implement be the bridge in our church know like what are other churches to do it?

This is going to be the conversation.

You don’t want to miss.

And so what we get started done is the pastor of a church called North Atlanta Church of Christ here in the Atlanta area, they’re actually in the dunwiddie area and he is the senior pastor and done.

Just tell me a little bit about yourself and your journey and then we’re going to tell them how we We got connected and you got connected to be the bridge.

Okay, is awesome.

Well we’re super excited.

We love you, Tasha and your leadership.

We’re so thankful for what God is doing through you.

And so my wife and I and our family were called to this work, 21 years ago, this month and so we have five young adult children and two grandchildren.

We have four boys and a girl and we You know, obviously we’re loving that Susan.

I’ve been married 36 years in August and so that’s all you know, wonderful gift on my end.

She tell you she’s feeling about it.

When we move here to this church, you know, it was a little bit surprising from the standpoint that it was in Atlanta but still like you know, 97% everyone wrapped in my color, right?

And that Confusing.

We’re coming from Indiana and I kind of anticipated that Atlanta, you know, Church would be more balanced in its representation of the community.

So I was kind of surprised by that.

So one of the very first questions I ask our leadership was, are you primarily white on purpose, or do you just not know how to reach out to people that aren’t white, right?

And, you know, that conversation kind of led me to believe that, you know, their hearts were Longing to do something more to see what God can do and man, you know, and then a hard decision was made in 1998 that we were determined to be a christ-centered diverse Community impacting church.

Can that became a part of who we are.

And so today, I promise you, we ain’t 97% $1 today.

So that’s a little bit of our background.

I love it.

I love you.

You know how you said, christ-centered, you know, that Mercy, because I think that’s where it has to start, you know, where God has to do something in your heart.

First, it has to become a conviction, you know, I think the key thing is, you know, we can have we can be a part of a church and you can have a vision for a church but ultimately the pastor is caring that vision.

And so when the pastor gets it yeah that helps.

And you know, for some of you who you’re listening and you’re like well my path There is just he’s not getting it you know, I want you to tag them in this.

Yes, you can forward this message to them.

After we finished you can you know, you can share some of the points here, but it and then also what you have to do is pray for your pastor definitely.

That’s right.

Absolute heart condition.

And a lot of people are.

It’s a there’s a fear there.

You know, this is we’re going to talk about some of the challenges and some of the laws and some of the things that you know, As you’ve gone through your journey but I also want them to know how we met.

I was at the time living in living in Austin, Texas.

And I came to Atlanta, to visit for.

I was, there was a meeting with a joiner and Bernice King.

That’s right.

These was kicking off the better better better together.

You were a part of that.

Yeah.

And I’m There.

And he’s sitting there and you can go ahead and you can tell them the story.

Oh, my gosh.

So I come to this meeting and, you know, I’m excited because I love Bernie’s Kings leadership.

I, you know, I just, I love what she means to this community, so it’s really exciting to be a part of it, but it was our first meeting, right?

Right.

So I’m sitting there and we had just started, our be, the bridge groups are first, be the bridge groups, right?

So I’m staring across the way there, and I’m thinking, wait a second, that’s what option for person over there.

I totally We did not expect it, you know.

So then I thought ooh, I’m gonna go over there, take a selfie text all the ladies in our be the bridge group, they’ll be jealous.

You know that here I am standing here with Latasha which is what I did and the response was perfect but it was that night where our brief conversation, just overflow owed with your spirit and the same spirit.

That was probably Up in the sisters in our church.

And I just thought then actually to be very transparent here.

And soon as you testified I started praying that night that God would move you back to Atlanta so so we’re thrilled.

Yes.

Oh so I moved back in November and one of the first church churches and pastors the reach out to me and just welcomed me.

Here was Don and Susan and the people over at North Atlanta.

You guys hosted a lunch for me.

And then all the ladies that were a part of, yeah, be the bridge groups.

They got up and spoke about there.

Yeah, it’s just really so good because at the time you know, your although I know I knew God was leading me back to Atlanta.

You still have that?

Yeah, that doubt.

Make the right move is this it’s like how is this going to work out?

Like you know, and I think that was just a confirmation you know you know for me and just how you guys just love, don’t me.

It was just great and so and I got to meet a lot of wonderful people stopped.

You know, we had a volunteer meeting.

We write that Duty gauge who actually is a on staff.

It just you guys, Guys, she has helped me so much.

I was so thankful.

So, is that these are just ways that when, you know, when you’re dealing with the nonprofit organization, like ourself, when you have churches, kind of come along side and do you know what is it that you need?

You need us to make copies, we can make copies and, you know, just just different things that just helps so much as so, I’m so grateful for you, and for your leadership, and I was just talking to Elizabeth one of Admins.

We were at Texas earlier and she said oh I love God, encourage them alive – you know just in the time that they met you you’ve encouraged them and gives them hope, you know, she’s Missouri, Missouri Kansas City, she’s probably laughing at, I always get that mixed up.

But you know, just as far as their journey within their church and yes, we’re gonna get into this now and and Susan, why don’t you introduce yourself?

If and then Stephen, if you can introduce yourself to the audience.

Sure.

Well, I’m Susan McLaughlin, I’m married to Don in 2017.

One of the first two groups that Atlanta had, and my life was really radically changed.

I didn’t know how much I had to learn.

I still am now, realize I have a lot to learn and it’s just changed me.

Personally, I am such a believer in this work, be the bridge and I’ve had the opportunity now.

I almost feel like I don’t know, like I need to get your permission because I have taken be the bridge on the road into a conference call of with leaders from another church who wanted to know.

They had lots of questions and ready to get started with their own groups and wanted, you know, just ask me our experience here at North Atlanta and so, you know, I think it’s awesome.

I’m I’m so sold on this.

And I’m in my second group right now and just very excited about how the transforming individuals in Atlanta and specifically at our church.

Yeah, so grateful for you, I know like sometimes I get we get emails and I have people who just so you guys know.

There’s no way in the world.

I can answer the be the bridge, female, no one.

We have a team of people that answers, those emails and some times, especially when there’s a church writing in and they want coaching.

And right now we haven’t set up a lot of our coaching Parts yet, but that is coming.

But you know, just, we were able to call on Susan and I think someone else and they were they’ve been able to help some of the churches through some questions and stuff like that, and just our wonderful team.

So, I’m so thankful for you.

And Steven, if you could introduce yourself and tell us what you do at North Atlanta, sure.

My name is Steve Maxwell, I’m a worship and Communications Minister here at North Atlanta and have bled been blessed to be here.

Now over three years.

Come on, feels like time has.

Yeah, I know, time has flown by.

It has, you know, they say, if you are having fun with what you’re doing, then time goes away.

And so this literally has been the case for me.

I moved here with my beautiful wife Alicia and and so Elation, you mentioned Judy gauge earlier Alicia and Judy gay.

Age are my entry into be the bridge and so they led a group and then Alicia is getting ready to start another group second group.

But anyway, that is my entry into be the bridge.

And so my home me and my three sons.

Now, RAB the bridge house, it has been a blessing.

And as you can imagine, Jonah 13, Judah, 10 and Josiah 9 are all being blessed, because of the conversations.

And now, the way we’re able to have Conversations starting with Christ in our homes which has been affected by the leadership of my wife and so that has been been a blessing but I am enjoying my time here at North Atlanta and leading our worship Ministry and working with our church and in the conversations.

And and if I can say the vibe that be the bridge is being here.

I’m sure what our mission is here at North Atlanta.

It’s just it has been a blessing, I’ve loved it, so glad to be here so grateful to have this conversation with you.

And so one of the things that I found out you wrote a book called love first and so I’ll hold the book up and so we’ve been doing some monthly conversations and I think I really wanted to talk with Don and his team today because he wrote a book based off of this Vision you know?

And this is I mean when you there what church Website is called love first.

And so there’s some chapters in here that he, he talks about some things that we’re going to get into.

But I want I want you to just kind of talk to me about your process and writing this book and then I want us to talk about just this first section on sick Church in a sick world, you know, like we have right now is you know what I’m finding is so hard for in church right now for people, you know, not for all.

‘Well, for some people are having to having a difficult time.

We’re in a different season, you know, people as they’re growing in this conversation, they’re there.

Unlike you your church, where your church, your be the bridge group started in your church.

A lot of times these groups are started in someone’s home.

This is just some Welsh, you know, who found out about be the bridge and they started with some friends or maybe started in their Community or maybe It within their church but they’re not in church leadership.

And so as they’re learning and they’re growing, you know, in this, they’re having a difficult time because it’s not being matched at church.

So they’re learning all these new things and the churches, you know, they’re kind of, you know, they’re kind of being the headlights and the churches on the, on the back end.

And so for a lot of people, it’s discouraging, you know, you know, you know a lot of people, you know, some people have You know, they’re like, you know, because I tell people that, you know, to have meetings with the pastor, you know, but the thing is, the way be the bridge is developed is very Grassroots and so right, you know, you can anyone can do this.

It doesn’t, we tried to make it so that in a way that is, its theological framework.

Anyone?

Yeah, this conversation and that’s, and we want to keep it that way because I think sometimes if we have to start from the head down, it’s You know, we have a, you know, be the bridges where you can kind of start from the bottom up, you know?

And and then you do have other things out there where it’s kind of starts from the head down.

Yeah, like some of the stuff that my friend Lee Jenkins is doing Booth.

But yeah.

So I just really, you know, if there’s a word of encouragement also that you have for those people out there right now that are kind of struggling and you know, and there, you know this content and you know discourage, you know and then You know, I know, you know some people they you know, they they’ve been kind of fighting in this and some people have chosen that you know, like hey let’s move on to where there’s a vision for this.

You know, we can’t control the vision here, you know?

So listen, I want you to just talk about that and just just journey and he give someone advice to addressing this with some of our listeners.

Wow.

Well I know that was a mouthful.

No bug you Because something that really touched me about your work.

And no course, I’d heard you.

And then I read and then I met you, right?

And one of the things that was confirmed is that your christ-centered I mean this thing flows out of what Christ is doing and you and what I want to say to people is it’s got a flow from what the spirit is doing in us, right?

And so like, for instance, one of the things that I realized was okay when I’m reading scripture and I’m I’ve seen things in scripture like, wow.

Look at the look at the work of Jesus, in kind of level playing the playing field, you know.

And so you might have a guy like a Zacchaeus who man, who would look at him as an ally.

Yeah, Jesus saw through all of that.

So deep into his heart all over the pages of the gospels.

The Pharisees are like, you know, like the bad guys, but you’ve got Nicodemus, you’ve got Paul, you’ve got Joseph of Arimathea, all of these.

Behind the scenes, like you say, with some sphere but Jesus knew not, everyone is who they appear to be, right?

So don’t imagine that you would just, oh well, alienate so-and-so alienates on.

So no, no, and you look at the Lord, you know, do his thing because he’s changing us, right?

He’s one working on us.

So, one of the things that happened here was, you know, we took very serious, some conversations, like I said, Down 17 years ago with a brother right here in the office where I’m sitting and I said, listen man, I got I got questions I want to ask and I want to ask them specifically to a black man and I said but I don’t know how to word those questions.

I’m going to use words that are offensive, but I don’t know it.

I’m going to ask questions that I think are important and you’re going to let me know.

Know, that’s something big question.

This is the big question, what I’m wondering is, why would you be a conversation partner for me?

He said, absolutely that day that particular day.

We spent 55 hours together.

Wow.

Okay, his name is dr.

Jerry Taylor, he’s a professor out in Abilene Christian University and he started the racial Unity Leadership Summit this.

I just want to put put them in context.

Yes the guy.

Well so when I heard Jerry tell that story for the first time.

Okay, so I know my side of the story.

First time.

I hold her.

Jerry tell that story The The part that he told was that we finished on our knees, holding hands, crying and praying together.

Now we did we did okay, we did.

But when I would tell the story, I would tell it from man.

I got this brother that took me in put his mantle over me, you know laid his is a willingness to help me put that around me and said, come on, let’s walk together.

What He remembered was us on our knees praying together.

So what that told me right there is every single conversation I’m in it will mean something to me, it’ll mean something to the other person.

And if we spend some time together, the spirit will help both of us, see what it meant to each other.

Okay, absolutely.

So, I want to say that as a word of encouragement, okay?

As far as the book, what happened, there was Was our elders of our church said, to me, they said, Don.

Here’s what we want you to do.

We want you to spend time with the Lord.

We will spend 40 days in prayer.

Wow, for?

Yes, for you.

And we want you to do is we want you to seek the Lord?

This is 2013 and we prayed together.

We put together a prayer guide for 40 days.

Coming out of the last Last 10 days of that, the some of the elders approached.

Me said let’s do it another. 40 Days.

Hmm let’s do it another 40 days.

I said well during those 40 days fun, don’t you guys start putting down things, the Lord is laying on your heart, right?

About our church, we come down almost into that when they said, look, I’m not kidding.

Let’s do it.

Another. 40 Days for discernment before the Lord, we came into January 2014.

They got up they said to the church join us in Another 40 Days of prayer.

So by the time we got, you know, what, you know what, where are we now, 160 days, right?

Yeah, first John 4:19 we love because mmm, He first loved us.

Yeah.

So what does God do?

First God loves first.

God is love.

God loves her.

God loves.

Before he creates.

Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world for God.

So loved the world.

He right?

Yeah.

So he loves before he creates He Loved Before.

He commanded He Loved Before people sin.

He Loved Before.

He called him out.

Yeah.

Is he see?

So, there’s not one thing that ever has ever happened in the history of humanity.

That was not.

Preceded by and prioritized in love.

So, my realization was, if we want to do anything that remotely resembles him.

It’s got to be love first.

Yeah, above everything else.

So, that’s what birthed that Vision, was that commitment to prayer, and then that’s what birth to book.

Wow, Roger.

That is beautiful.

That is beautiful, and though, and in the book you talk about Sometimes just sick symptoms of a sick church and, you know, you talked about that and and I just if you can there was just some things in there as you as you did.

This study you know what are you know what the main thing like can you pull out just one thing from that chapter?

Yes.

Yeah that you would want to share, you know.

Yeah.

Talk about the symptoms.

Sometimes there’s some Um, there’s some maybe some people listen, and, you know, that I know that some people are going through some hard things, right.

Yes, you know, not even just related to as we’re talking about racial reconciliation but I know, you know, there’s some churches that are dealing with hard things with their leadership, you know, with more.

There’s all kinds of things that are happening and so you know, where they’re trying to seek this, you know, wisdom and yeah.

Steps and stuff like that.

Yeah, so you can just speak to just one of the things from there.

Okay.

So you know the background story was we were looking at this Ebola crisis and we were right up close and personal with that.

Because dr.

Kent Brantly.

Who was the guy that was infected with ebola?

Became the national face of Ebola, right?

His I’ve worked with his uncle for 25 years for 20 over 20 years.

He’s our executive Pastor, right?

I knew Kent when he was a six year old boy in Indiana, so one of the things he told us after he was healed from this, is he said, here’s the thing that happened, we actually had people think they were getting sick at the hospital?

Hmm, so you and sick, people thinking that the hospital was making them six.

We had to go out in the Villages and rebuild trust.

So I said that the church here, where the churches in the same place, people think that the church is making the world sick and you know what?

We have them making a world sick.

You know, we act like the smartest people think like us and everybody ought to be scared of what we’re scared of, you know?

Yeah, stepping back and I’m saying, wait a second people you didn’t see any of that stuff.

In Jesus, that’s not how he approached people.

So, what we gotta do is we gotta step back up and say, would we be willing to go back out into the community and say, Hey, listen man, we know we know, we put some stuff on the world that has hurt people wounded people, we were complicit in, and not just them.

But now, we’re complicit in so many things that make it hard for people to really, really come to the Lord.

Would you sit down and share that with us?

We’re not.

Here to tell you what you should have thought or how you should process us.

We want to know what in the world.

Are you feeling at how can we come alongside of you?

And when you become a place of starts listening like that, people start talking.

Yeah.

And it opens up some healing that is good.

I wanna, that’s excellent.

I want to jump to and we can probably get some input from like Stephen and Susan, kind of talk about the journey.

The one thing I love like I met Don like there’s a lot of times when I meet people from a church and like maybe the wife is involved with be the bridge and maybe other people are are either.

Maybe, you know, there’s a leader somewhere else, you know.

Right there trying to encourage their Pastor or the pastor’s wife to get involved, you know it just depends.

But when I met you guys to see that you know your wife was a part of a group.

Oh you bet?

No.

You weren’t Courage in that, you know, the leaders that your church, you know, like Stephen as a leader within the church and his wife is a part of it.

All these leaders wives are a part of this, and I’m like, yes, that’s where it begins.

Yes, that’s where it trickles down.

And you were, you were doing this with your leadership and I want to talk about chapter 16 and it talks about love does not Delight in Justice and I want to talk about how Susan kind of some of your journey.

Stephen, we can talk about some of The things that you’re doing in your department, as it relates to Healing with bridge-building because that’s actually one of the chapters in here.

Are one of yes, one of the sections in the book is healing with bridge building and I think I think we met after that, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So that’s correct.

So you can just we can just talk about chapter 16 and I think because a lot of times I hear people when you you mentioned love and people they think it’s they use it as a scapegoat and the sense where it’s like, yes all we need to do is just love, you know?

And like they put a period there, right?

Where love is action.

It’s a very lucky you know it’s emotion and so and so one of the things you say, you know, one of this this thing about love is that makes Justice a non-negotiable.

That’s right, you know, negotiable and Want to you.

There’s a good statement here, I don’t know.

Do you have your book here?

What I do?

Yeah, okay, yeah I love just that.

That first those that first sentence, if you want to read that or just you you have it in you so you can just talk about that.

I just love how you talk about just the finding the characteristic of life and what Justice how it intertwines with love is the production of love, you know.

So yes.

So what happened?

Was, I felt like, let me make a quick caveat on this one of the things that I wanted to do with the book and I do it in the very first introduction, is I challenge the notion that love is unconditional, okay?

I challenge that notion because what is unconditional is is our condition.

God loves us, no matter what our condition is.

Okay, so that’s the that’s the unconditional part but God’s love is so conditioned, right?

Like, I’m in air conditioning right now.

I know if it’s honor if it’s off, right.

So I looked at First Corinthians chapter 13 and I said, Tunes of love right there.

Those are the conditions love is always patient.

Love is always kind of doesn’t seek its own way.

It’s not easily angered.

Boom, boom.

Boom, right.

So God never unhooks.

From those conditions C.

So I mean his own Sons on a cross.

What are you gonna do?

Well you don’t unhook, right?

So one of the things I want to clarify was the idea that we would say we love and turn a blind eye to Injustice and makes no sense whatsoever.

Absolutely zero.

Right.

So I’m not buying it.

The idea that we could say we love people and then Why not do something to actively on personal and systemic levels.

Start addressing in justices.

So will often ask the question, you know, like well was Justice served and one of the things I want to clarify is that in this country, which I love, I was born here, I love our country, but some one of our attorneys here at our church said, you got to be careful about how you talk about this.

They said we don’t have a justice system.

We have a legal system, Justice is a value, right?

So people can do very unjust things legally, right?

So just because someone was able to figure out how to manipulate the law, doesn’t necessarily me.

Justice was served see so I started realizing oh, I see what you’re saying.

So as an attorney, his commitment that we have many men and women his It meant specifically is to accomplish Justice in the legal system.

So if love is is always conditioned by the determination that we’re going to be just, right?

Then that means that I’m going to be looking for all kinds of opportunities, small and large, to restore Justice, in the arena of my influence and that can be something like one of our son, Susan, his Ph.D program.

Right now, he said, here’s the thing, he said, if University hires a black female in a position for which I am qualified, I’m okay with that.

You know, why?

Because people like me have had a shoo-in in those positions forever.

So at the end of the day, if I’m qualified, and she’s qualified, and they choose her because they want to bring her voice to Ooh, the table.

I’m good with that.

And that’s your son.

Boom.

Wow, that’s right.

That’s what I’m talking about.

Yeah, except that’s so I think that’s what we’ve got.

What I want to say more than anything to people is.

Don’t give in to unconditioned love.

Don’t give yourself a pass, you know, like man, that’s enough.

Okay, that’s good.

That’s really good.

I mean that just and it shows you just seeing the fruit of what you’re doing in your church and we’re going to talk a little bit more about some things that you guys do.

Because a part of this work isn’t about investing, you know, and you’re going to lose and you did are going to be challenges and so Susan, you know, I know you’ve gone through some stages as far as, you know.

Through this.

But what really compelled you to to become a part of the be the bridge within your church.

And what has that Journey look like for you?

Just as you know, a sister, you know, as a mom and as a wife, you know, right.

Well as you can already hear three Dawn, it wasn’t like be the bridge came along and said when we said, hey, why don’t we start?

No.

Now, this is gonna miss ya 17 years, right?

Right.

Steve, Dan And passionate about.

We saw we believe that this is who we should be and we were changing as a church already.

Yeah, we said a lot of changes and so like a lot of our listeners I became familiar with be the bridge and 2017 at the simulcast.

When you were being interviewed by Jenny, Allen, Okay.

Okay.

And that was my first time to see you was on a screen.

I’m telling you I think million people watch that face.

That’s right, that’s right.

Yeah I’m thinking we might have had close to 500 ladies there and And everyone got so excited when they heard you cast your vision.

Yes, because it fit who we were and that our vision, what we believed God’s will was for his church.

And so we just resignated and hung on every word you shared.

And, you know, I’m North, Atlanta is a unique place and that You know, even though I’m married to Don, I’m not usually told that I have to leave in a certain way.

Yeah, but that, you know, Susan, we want you to do this.

You know, they love.

They really have allowed the holy spirit to guide, me personally and allow me to choose the areas that I want to invest myself into that.

I believe God is calling me to, and I love that, you know, I don’t know.

Other churches there the wives, get Do that.

But you know I I’m like every other member I listen to the voice of God in my life and the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

And so I was actually invited into one of the first groups that very organically happened at North Atlanta and this is a question I do get when I’m talking to other churches they want to know.

Well how do you get started?

You know, do the leaders have to go through some kind of Raining.

Yeah.

Yes.

Small group.

Yeah, no, I’ll tell you what when the Holy Spirit touches you you know, you’re not really waiting for somebody to it to declare you.

That’s right.

That’s right.

Ladies.

A shh chapped me and she said I want you in our group, you know?

And so he gauge, you know Judy.

Yeah asked me to be in their group.

So that was one of the first groups and I got to say though.

The Lord really humbled me because I thought I knew a lot more than I did and that I did more than I did and this is the Because I think a lot of times we do, you know, and what it is.

You don’t know until you just be quiet.

Yeah, this is a group.

Yeah.

Something very, very special about a small intimate group that meets to discuss these very pertinent, intentional conversations, and you start getting to hear what your sisters have lived through.

Through.

Yeah, challenges their struggles, their families.

You know, you have a exercise and I believe it’s maybe the second lesson or third lesson.

Thank you, l’m where we do our Gina G.

Yeah, mmm.

Yeah.

And that part confuses.

A lot of people, we’re going to explain it a little better in the book.

Basically, for those of you listening that you don’t know what that is, you share your own family tree, and you trace of like, how racism has shown its head in your personal family and how that those systemic things have been passed down in your own family and how that’s affected you and you start sharing this.

You really start getting very personal with one.

Another it really does change you because suddenly this isn’t this issue takes on faces and yes.

Yeah.

So there’s a lot of vulnerability that just so much vulnerability that this work begins and yes and you know and it takes I mean and that just requires humility, you know?

Yes.

And I and if that’s something that’s hard for you.

Like once you get, if you To be vulnerable and just say, I don’t know, you know, just it just can and listen and be able to listen to stories and develop this sense of empathy.

And just just come into notion thinking that possibly everything you’ve been taught probably was wrong, you know, and that’s hard to admit, you know?

Yes.

And so Steven, you know, I know your wife, LED one of the group’s, you know I nailed you.

You are the worship and Communications Pastor.

So what are some things as the church has been on this journey, you know, to be more inclusive of all people.

How has that impacted your job?

You know, you know, at work but also, you know, in the home to, you know, and you’re leading your son’s.

Wow.

Let me say quickly that it It it is a blessing to be a part of a congregation who is involved in Jesus work and Jesus work includes the diversity of his creation.

Yes shooting one.

Another in one, another slides over 56 times in the New Testament.

The idea of one another or one another passage has literally litter.

God’s word.

So that That was his intention.

All along.

That’s right.

With that being said, I have been blessed because I came into a church, just like you said earlier.

And I’m glad that Don mention that.

What I I feel like God has included me in his plan here at North Atlanta, which had been started a long time ago.

So some of the ways that I’ve been able, it’s affected my job in the way that I bless it is, we are intentional, if you will, like I said, I’m going to Communications Minister about the That we use in research when we use videos and we have pictures, or any of our communication, it shows diversity, as we, the leaders in the church talk about inclusion inclusion is not in the picture, but if your congregation is trying in its diversity to be inclusive, then you need to show that you are a diverse congregation and everything that you do stuff that you put out some of the other things, one of the hugest blessings.

And I when I my wife and I came and we visited over three years ago.

And my latest sat down with me and they told me, okay, as the worship leader, we know the power of music in our congregations, have several ethnicities and people who enjoy different styles represented, we need you to lead in all of these different styles and these ethnicity and so that I just just to be, you know, just if you’ll allow me just to speak for my best, Straight up musician.

I see need you to own one Sunday.

We need Chris Tomlin and then we need right after that Fred Hammond.

We need Tasha Cobb, then we need Bethel and we need all the different.

And so, I have come into, we mentioned, can smell these, the, the group at the worship Ministry, the it’s inclusive.

Diversity was already started when I got here.

And so it has been a blessing and I have been asked to come in and continue in that leadership and then and so that was started.

Then after we get here with the blessing of that, my wife comes to me, one day after coming to a conference.

And I know these stories are coming together and we’re sitting in, I don’t know if it was that exact room where Susan was, but in a anything like that, where she heard and she kept on my Latasha.

Maybe degrees be the breeze, be the Bria to make this look at.

And so and so I do get God’s, holy spirit and his fire active in the church, right?

And you throw something like, holy gasoline, which is be the bridge onto it.

You just gotta cry.

Yeah, that’s what we need to be.

That’s what we need to not only talk about the who that Jesus is, but live him out.

And as we, in our diversity, as we do that, this inclusion that Tough.

Yeah, they’re really at you have to.

So, one of the things that I’m finding out is you have to ask yourself, tough questions?

Yeah.

Really living out who Jesus is because just like Don said, living out Jesus includes everyone.

Yes.

Yeah, God, that’s so much.

That’s so good.

And the fact that this is the thing that I’ve noticed, there’s so many worship leaders.

Like I know my best friend’s husband is away, Leader in like he’d witnesses to all types of music and he just kind of had you rattled off Tasha Cobbs, you know, all these different people bent.

The like, I know that as a person of color we it’s like, if we’re going to operate in this world, we have to be more exposed to.

Yes.

But I know that’s very difficult.

Sometimes on the other side of things because some people are just used to doing one genre of music.

It is not a part of the Them.

So, I am.

So I am so grateful that you said that but I want to talk about before we talk about your IDP program that you guys have because you guys want to hear this, I want you to hear one of the things that they’re doing as it relates to their staff with ivp and but before we do that, I want you to just mention you kind of talked about some of the challenges.

Like one of the challenges that you had was trying to find this balance of Diversity of music.

You know, Multicultural awareness in your in your music and how you do that but what are some of the other challenges and push back because I don’t want people here in this and and really think like oh my goodness they just they’re just knock it out the park.

What you are.

But the thing is you’ve been doing this work for 17 years like this you know.

So those of you who you know you’ve been on this Journey for three or four years, you know.

Like this is for the Long Haul and you know, yeah, that’s hear me.

Say this and people who are listening, you here is all the time that this is not a Sprint, you know, that this is a marathon.

I know that I will be doing this work until you know how to Old Folks say to Jesus terrier for me.

It’s not And which I wish there was because at times, it could be, so discouraging, like today was one of those days?

I was like, oh my goodness.

I have to find the strength.

Yes to get on this through know and have this conversation when inwardly, you know, just feeling hopeless today, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

You have those you have those moments in this journey but knowing that, you know, I’m not hopeless, you know?

Just situation is not hopeless that I’m looking for.

Opportunities where the god opportunities and what’s happening.

And so, I think if you could just share, maybe, maybe one or two challenges, just to kind of to help someone because someone is saying, you know, can it get any better, you know?

Yeah, I don’t, you know, like, you know, like so what are some something that you would encourage people?

Like, maybe one of the challenges, how you resolve there are maybe something.

It’s a challenge now that you haven’t resolved?

Yeah!

Oh my.

Yeah.

Well, the first thing is that Are you can see Justin Stephens leadership, Susan’s leadership Alicia’s leadership Judy’s leadership.

The, the elders leadership that you’ve got people who were open to do, you know, we just want to know the Lord.

Right?

And I know we say that, right?

But you do I mean you want to know him you want him more than your next breath.

And so when you think about it like this, okay, here’s like a challenge, so I do a message out of conference and I teach out of Deuteronomy 10 and you know God is just you know all about hey you guys were immigrants and Egypt you know you going to have immigrants among you love them.

Do not write.

So this guy comes up to me afterward, hammers, me, you know, why did you have to make a political right?

And, and so I said, well, tell me about that.

Well, tell you about what?

Tell me about what you’re feeling.

Tell me about what you heard, right?

I read a Passage of scripture, you heard that like in a political context, right?

And I said, but I obviously we’re both at a spiritual conference.

So you would expect me to read scripture.

You wouldn’t expect me to be.

Like I can’t read that scripture and we know we love scripture, dada da.

But in this setting when scripture speaks into something, we have to recognize that in the complexity of our world, people have got a thousand voices yelling into their Heads every single day.

And so the fact that someone might come at you and kind of come at, you kind of in a negative way.

We’ve got to find ways to receive those initial conversations.

So that’s, that was a big challenge, right?

So one night can smell our executive pastor and I, we’re teaching this and this is probably 15 years ago, we’re teaching this suit.

He’s on race and everything, and I walk down the lobby of our church and this lady Takes a swing at me with her purse.

Hits me in the head, knocked my glasses flying and she was so mad at me and she was like, you know, we don’t have race problems until people.

Like you stir stuff popped out of that.

I know.

It’s so 10, you know, he’s trying to find my glasses for me, and he is the most loving you, and I think you’ll ever meet on the planet.

Does he still take up this lady stuff?

And so, I said to this, Lady.

I said, I don’t believe this is how God wants us to finish our evening.

Like this, you are great.

Can we just sit down right?

Can we just sit down together?

Right, well when I started realizing was is there were so many things that she was a feeling fearful about and one of our Sisters in Christ was was waiting by the door.

You know, and she was watching gently.

And so finally, we got to a point that conversation where I said, well what could she join us?

She came over sat down with this.

So now you have a white lady and a black lady who love each other and she looks at this black sister and says, so what’s it like you live in here and she said, It’s better.

What?

What do you mean it’s better?

Well, you know, I, I feel safer.

I feel and it just hit this sister.

Whoa, I’ve known you all these years and I imagine you were processing life like I was processing life.

And so what I want to say to people is sometimes the I’ve only been hit in the head once for the purse, right?

So it’s not like that, you know, it.

I don’t want to miss color this.

I don’t want to paint it the wrong way, right?

It’s not like that’s gonna happen to you all the time, but what is gonna happen is people are occasionally going to Bubble Up with what’s, what’s hurting them?

Yeah.

And we’ve got to find ways to be able to embrace that initial wave, right?

Not get lost in how it might make us feel initially, so that we can kind of push forward.

Now, I do want to tell a beautiful Beautiful thing is, as you stay on this.

God brings all these voices, like bringing Stephen and Elation their sons to our church.

You know, Steve Steven is a world-class worship leader, but Maddie knows the Lord, and he is a great leader of people, right?

So God brings these gifts alone all along the way.

Write the ladies, leading this part of our work right now, the sisters leading this part of our work.

That’s what God Needed and wanted to happen.

So we come in, we have devoted the last year to a Reconciliation theme since last September, okay?

All year long.

Every single Sunday morning at the 10:00 hour, we lead a class on reconciliation, we’ve done this all year long, okay?

Wow, this two Sundays ago.

Now, the class of 50, 50 white and black, its young and old married, not married me.

Race couples.

Non they all that stuff is in there, we come in there and we had a conversation on reparations to go and one of the things I said, the church is everyone tells us we can’t do this but you just did it.

Wow, this is what the spirit of God can navigate.

If we don’t lead from Frailty, don’t leave from Frailty.

Don’t leave from wheat.

To see lead from the strength of spirit yet.

Sunday, we had everyone sit around the outside of the class put eight people in the middle.

Had them just talk about.

What do you wish everyone knew about race again?

Black, white, male female, and then anyone who wanted come up, come up, tap them on the shoulder.

They leave that Circle.

That person steps into the circle shares what they got going on and as that stuff starts to come out and people who Steve-O was in it.

Yeah.

That is like, oh my God.

That’s so beautiful.

We’re gonna have, we’re gonna run out of time, but we have got to have another conversation around this.

But before we before we I have to get we have to talk about the id id P.

Yeah.

I d– program and I want to talk about the the service that you did where you brought in Ruby Bridges and so we got to talk about that.

So if If you guys, if you know, if you want to hold on, we’re going over a little bit, but you guys want to hear some of the things that they’ve done?

But one of the things that, you know, I tell people like, if this is a value for you for your church, if this is a part of your vision, you invest in your business.

That’s right.

You know, so when it comes to, you know, starting btb groups, you know there’s training and Consulting that we do would be to be the bridge that churches can can can bring us into do that.

There’s an investment that comes.

Yes.

And yes, you know, one of the things that I’ve done is, I’m certified in the cultural intelligence, and you guys have certified people in your church through the IDP program.

Yeah, to the talk about that and talk about just the financial investment that your church is making because this is a part of your vision.

And that’s what I know people are, seriously.

It’s right.

It’s like, if you’re not willing to put, Some budget money towards them and that’s real talk, you know, this, this cost money.

And so just like any other Vision if you have as a part of your church, you know, you have to be willing to invest it, you know?

So I want to just, if you could just tell the people what you’re doing with your IDP program.

Yeah, we’ll do it real quickly.

So, one of our fantastic leaders here is dr.

Major building.

Okay.

Yeah, dr.

Bollen was Teacher at Abilene Christian University and we prayed about it reached out to him, 17 years ago. 16 years ago and said men, would you come and Lead our family ministry and Lead Our Community Counseling Services.

Okay, now you think about this.

So what you’re saying is that the leader of our family ministry and the leader of our Counseling Services which is a huge face to the community.

Is a black man.

Okay, so I don’t want to overlook that.

Yeah I don’t want to overlook what that meant for him and his wife and his amazing Sunset were young.

Now they’re both.

They’re both men now.

Yeah.

But but to have that kind of leadership step in and have him and his family invest the way they’ve invested in this church.

And in this community, there are investments there that are.

There’s no way to calculate.

Okay, but with dr.

Bollen the first he’s the first person went to Philadelphia and did training with What’s called the IDI, which is the Intercultural development inventory and people who work at res life for like universities and all of that they’re familiar with this.

This is going on all over the nation.

Okay.

But he did it first then I did it.

I went to Portland Oregon, I went through the training.

Then we came back, we talked to the shepherd’s.

About this major shared not just from the church’s perspective but from a professional sports perspective man this stuff is gold now.

We’re Shepherds made a decision to invest in of certifying, our staff and some of our elders, okay?

Then put aside the money to train 200 of our leaders now.

If you want, I gotta tell you, to be able to work with people like this.

Yeah, serve with people like this, who put their life on the line like that.

And you understand some of this, some of this is budget money that we have in our ministry.

Some of it, I’m telling you, came straight out of their pockets because this is their heart, their believe, they got certified in it, right?

And so you got people that believe that this is what God is doing.

This is what God wants to do with the world, right?

Right.

So then what the IDP does is out of the IDI each person gets an Intercultural development plan.

That’s the IDP, so we’ll work in these plans.

I’m working mine, right?

And but, you know, and that thing a kick your tail from one into the next, you know, you think, you know, something, it’ll tell you.

And so, we’re all growing with it, but let me speak to that for a minute when solando Castile was killed the night that he was killed, We like, I told you, we have 55 years old children, one of our sons is adopted and he’s wrapped in a darker color skin than the rest of our family that night.

He and I were up all night together all night.

And here’s what I learned, I could have cried myself to sleep for four Lando, Castile.

My son could not go to sleep.

Because of philander Castile.

I can cry myself to sleep, but he couldn’t sleep.

And what that taught me was another step in the embodiment of what’s happening in in our country.

And in the opportunity, we have to share genuine life together,not, right?

So real quickly.

Ruby Bridges.

Oh my goodness.

So my daughter and I and my son-in-law, we get to meet her out in California.

We We were like, man.

And I said Ruby, you have got to come to our church.

You just absolutely have to come to our church.

I’ve told you a story as many times as you’ve told your story, you gotta come to our church down to that Dock, and she was like, all right, I was like what, and they’re so.

So we’re going to do it.

And so, we cast this Vision that what we’re going to do is in the gym, we set up a labyrinth for people to go through the trace.

The history of slavery from Britain, All the way up into the us and we come up there slavery and then the slaves code flat coach Jim Crow coming into the Civil Rights Movement.

Come all the way around and Susan, my wife.

She took this on with a great team of our people.

And then, at the end of this journey, through our gym on this.

This step through time, you come into a replica of her classroom at William.

Frantz Elementary School where she integrated in New, Islands and then there was Ruby to meet people in and talk to her you know and then we had all of these people.

I think we lost God.

It was so good, but you can finish the story, Susan.

You know, and have a curator or someone tell you what you’re looking at are young adults would stand there and tell the history as they walk through this Labyrinth and by the time they got to the classroom and they got to meet Ruby, they got you know it was just such an emotional experience, they had the picture taken with her.

Sign to sign some books for them and I mean it was an incredible experience for larger.

Awesome.

That’s okay but the fact that you brought Ruby Bridges ID because you wanted your congregation to experience yes Ari yes know the story.

You told them the story but you wanted them to meet her and I think yes that was an investment also.

So I think that’s you know, No, you’ve given so many people if you’re listening to this and you’re a part of our community, you know, these are a lot of ideas, this is a lot to pray towards, you know, I’m pretty sure like if I’m some other pastors kind of reached out to some of the leaders in your your church, you guys.

Yeah we’re going to do some more things, you know, along with this because I just thank you.

You guys have done such a great Great job and what you’re doing.

And I think one of the key things, I think that, I hope that other people heard was how your elders are on board with yes.

And, yes, as your structure leadership, in your church, you you, you have to get people may not start out that way, right?

But, you know, but you have to get people that had that same type of vision of this, not push against.

You know what, you feel that God is calling the church in this.

Cuz we know this is not, we know that this is not wrong, but, you know, we can say with 100% that God is exact.

He yeah, this type of work and he wants us to do this type of work.

And so a lot of times people right now view, if you’re having issues it’s probably from a lack of understanding, you know, in a lack of experience that people are having so many, go ahead and a way to get into the conversation.

Like, along with the book, there’s a video series.

Okay.

So, one of the things I’ve encouraged people to do is, is if you want someone in the conversation, continued, small group together, watch the video series, and just talk about it.

Just talk through the questions, right?

Yeah.

Because that way, it’s more like, okay, so how do I get this conversation going with people?

I care about.

Well, sometimes you need a little conversations.

Start.

Yeah.

Yeah, you know something that’s simple and I think the book is love first, this is Don Mclaughlin and his wife, Susan and their Communications of worship.

Pastor, Stephen Maxwell, it’s been a pleasure.

I think we could talk forever.

Those of you.

Who knows?

My God, I’m telling you but a joy like I mean, you guys are such an encouragement to me, like just having this conversation.

Today I feel so encouraging.

We have this in our in our life.

Yes, yes, yes.

So glad that you’re part of the community and so we just thank you guys for coming on and just have to share your heart.

Your, you know, I did not know the story about you getting hit in the head with a purse and when he told the story he was laughing, you know, I was still be traumatized and then he like, Susan when he was telling the story, you were kind of looking like I’m so she’s not she’s not happy about that and then you started laughing I’m like wow but that’s something.

So you know what until you’ve been hit in the head with a purse.

We’re all good.

Thank you so much.

We love you but just being a part of this work and just showing churches That this is possible that there is a different way.

Yeah, God Can Transform Hearts, you know, that he can make things brand-new.

Yes, some I am encouraged by, you know, your work.

And then I see this work, this happening in your family.

This happening within your personal family is like, where this is not just with the adults, but this is trickling down.

Yes.

And there’s some some great things coming, you know?

Hopefully, I’m next year with be the bridge to help with that.

And tmu, someone said, what videos is he talking about the videos that he’s talking about?

They go with his book first.

There’s some bit of a video series that goes with that.

So if you’re like at the beginning stages and you’re just trying to get people, you know, to care, you know, this is the thing.

We can’t we can’t transform Hearts, but no.

This we give them tools.

Yes.

And resources is Sure that does that work?

Yes, yes.

Alright, let’s ride.

This is just another resource that we have and we just have so many people in our community from that.

Actually, they’re writing stuff that produces stuff.

So even in the midst of the challenges, guys, even in the midst of discouragement, you know, just knowing that God is moving.

Yeah, he’s active.

He’s eat.

He has his remnant of people.

Yes, there are opportunities.

So I just my encouragement today.

That I received.

I hope you received that that there are some opportunities that God is moving like everything is not chaos.

Everything is not just falling apart.

You know, let’s stay the course.

You guys, no matter how long it takes or stay destroys recommit to this work.

If you put your hand in the head in the sand, the last, you know, couple months.

That would get back on it, you know, just wait time invest and we love you and thank you.

And I think someone said oh they’re saying, oh so once we did, I don’t have anyone on here to address any questions.

So there’s some questions, you know, you guys can write up under the broadcast and we’ll copy this into the group.

I am not good at doing two things at once.

Like I get a TD.

With your pastor.

Here is a pastor his wife, his Communications and worship Pastor right here.

They’re doing it.

This is an example.

And listen, Don is a totally different wrapped in a totally different skin color.

So, so this is a perfect example.

This is a perfect example for you guys to really grieve from.

So, thank you so much, we love you.

Good night.

Thank you for listening to this.

Be the bridge production for more bridge building resources.

Visit our website at Viva Bridge.com, Thank you for listening to this.

Be the bridge production for more bridge building resources.

Visit our website at Viva Bridge.com,