Episode 104 | The Black and the Blue: A Cop Reveals the Crimes, Racism, and Injustice within America’s Law Enforcement with Matthew Horace

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Interview with Matthew Horace, author of “The Black and The Blue: A Cop Reveals the Crimes, Racism, and Injustice in America’s Law Enforcement”. This was a recorded interview from 2019.

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Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.

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0:00

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0:52

Truly our pleasure to welcome, Matthew breaths.

We have been so excited about this interview.

You Matthew Woodworth wrote a powerful book called the black and the blue, the cop reveals their Prime racism and Injustice in America’s law enforcement mr.

1:12

Horace has been along for sportsmen officer at the state federal and local level for nearly 40 years.

So welcome mr.

Holes, good evening, how are you?

I’m good here is your book And I hope that everyone will get a copy.

1:33

It has been very eye-opening to me, a very powerful book.

One of the more popular books in our group and Bryan Stevenson customers.

They went rebuild a lot of the problems within the criminal justice system, and I think that you were brought is just as powerful and reveal them.

1:55

All the reform that needs to happen within our So I thought we could kick it along by perhaps if you wouldn’t mind to read your book for us.

I will, well, thank you very much and thanks for having me on tonight.

I am a cop, make no mistake about it.

2:14

I’ve been a part of the best and the worst that my Noble profession represents.

I’ve worked hard and played hard to to cop culture.

I’ve been in sports leagues with cops.

I’ve eaten drunk and worship with cops.

I’ve picnic party and It was cops.

2:30

I’ve cried with cops and when some of us have died, a part of me has died with them.

I pursued bad guys, and protect acute and communities in every state of the country, even Guam and at nearly every level of law enforcement, I’ve held lots of titles, I was a police officer, a federal agent, a senior executive, I’ve had a task forces, conducted trainings.

2:53

Overseeing high-risk operations, coordinated multi-state, investigation, debt more Still at my core.

I’m just a cop one of the hundreds of thousands of men and women who have at some point taken an oath to protect and serve the people of this great nation.

3:11

So even at the cop, I am the black child, who was told by loving parents, that no matter how absurd, the reason for the stopped by police, no matter what insults are hurled my way, no matter what degradation I’m subjected to to submit so that I could make it home alive, I am Tamir rice.

3:33

A 12 year old boy playing a decades-old game, or the marriage and every Cops and Robbers with a toy gun, it was given to him by a The police were called and rice was shot dead.

Within two seconds of the officers arrival.

3:50

When I started writing this book of friend, former Chief of Police in New York City, I told him that I wanted to make a point and I didn’t want to minimize the risk that officers face when I while I understand the frustrations of African Americans and others.

I want to make sure, people know and understand how difficult a job policing can be.

4:11

My friend turned to me and said, black people know how hard the job is, what they don’t understand is how is it that we the police are never wrong.

They don’t understand how in case.

After case, a person that shot and killed by police, but the police are never at fault.

4:28

They’re never wrong.

The need to address the subject of police.

And race has been brought into sharper Focus recently by the black lives matter movement.

I hope that the black and blue can add value to this process.

That’s very powerful.

4:45

Thank you.

So, can you just briefly?

Tell us.

Why did you write this book?

Like how did it come to life?

Well, there was a period probably doing 19.

I’m sorry, during 2015, where there seemed to be incident after incident after incident?

5:02

And at the time, I was serving in the capacity of a full-time contributor to CNN.

And the calls initially were once a month, twice a month.

And for a while, I was almost like every week, if not several times a week, another shooting, another black male victim.

5:18

So we started analyzing them holistically.

And I just felt that I had the platform, the timing and the subject matter to go ahead and Tackle this very tough issue.

Hmm.

So what has been the response of the book so far?

Well, you know, from people who have actually read the book, The response has been amazing, all sides of the aisle people who I’m familiar with, I’ve called and emailed and respond in a very positive way.

5:44

A lot of the people who have responded in a negative way, haven’t actually read the book.

You know, there is an issue in our profession that we sort of line up and close Ranks and sort of say, hey, we’re not budging, we’re feeling victimized.

So, by enlarge anyone who’s read the book, The response has been overwhelming and you know, it’s been, it’s been an emotional Journey for me.

6:05

Yeah, I bet I mean you truly have such a unique perspective because you are both a black man in America, but you are also, you also were a law enforcement officer so you really have an inside beam into the policing system.

So do you believe that are placing see System is inherently biased.

6:26

I think there are things about it and things about our hiring Recruitment and best practices that caused by has to manifest itself in a negative way in policing and you know I point out in the book as you know, that implicit bias is something that we all have yes, the chat and it doesn’t matter whether you’re a police officer or a doctor or a recreation center leader, we all have these biases that are engraved and inherent in us.

6:52

The challenge becomes Is when a person who has the authority to take civil liberties and also the authority to take a life.

Don’t put these biases and check, then we can have disastrous consequences and we’ve seen that in case, after case, after case, and what are some of the cases that you have seen personally that thing how to put the most where you have movement, guys, come to life?

7:19

Well, I think the Walter Scott case and North Charleston, South Carolina.

You know, with the whole Advent and Technology video, technology, and cell phone technology.

Now, the world has the opportunity to see, but only a very small segment of society saw through the years.

7:37

So now we look at a case, like Walter Scott.

And believe me, when we did this book, we spoke to hundreds of people and people said repeatedly had they not seen that incident on video.

It might not have believe that it actually happened.

So the video have been video has been a good thing or a bad thing.

7:53

But it’s definitely been a game changer for the way, the public perceives law enforcement and now the way law enforcement receives the public because now video technology has led to officers wearing body cameras and the like.

So we’re seeing more now in a very visual way than we ever did in the past.

8:12

And so, from the data that I’ve been able to find mostly from The Washington Post, it shows that there are huge disparities and how police officers used for across racial lines does The police didn’t have a way of tracking this information or the federal government.

8:27

Do they be a mandatory tracking system?

That police officers are police precinct since /.

We do a lot of departments have reporting requirements to say.

Every time you’ll stop an individual, you need to fill out some semblance of a field.

8:42

Identification card, where you put down the person.

You stop their name, their date of birth their race, you know, all the demographic information and a lot of departments.

Get that information filtered into Data data data bases.

So they can’t report on how many people are, we stopping what race, under what conditions, what neighborhoods, and those sort of things, and certainly the doj, and when they come in and do their research, they do it exhausting job at sort of getting the resource and getting getting the numbers, okay?

9:10

And so is there an agency that we says the place and that’s why every organization has their own Internal Affairs order or their own internal investigations Bureau they’re generally Smaller organizations because organizations have less issues like that.

9:27

But, you know, when something Rises to the level of having your organization being placed, under a Department of Justice consent degree there has to have been incident after incident after incident.

So BC now department is like New Orleans was under a consent, decree Baltimore’s under consent.

9:42

Decree Chicago’s under a consent decree in other departments because they haven’t been able to police themselves, ultimately and the department Justice comes in to manage the process, okay?

Snow as a white person, I have to say, I grew up feeling that the police was been really productive with me.

10:01

But as I’ve become an adult, and I have made so many friends who are black, they don’t feel that same way.

So, in other words, the police often feels oppressive to them as opposed to Christmas.

And one of the things that we do and are who the beaver completely against black people at the hands of the police.

10:28

And we obviously know that there are good police officers out there and moral police officers and more stuff than the bad apples, so to speak.

But why is it so difficult for a police officer to be charged when it’s clear that there was some sort of malice or Injustice, or if there’s not a video in the case of Walter Scott why?

10:49

Why is it so difficult?

Well, you know, I think to your earlier point, I think that communities see policing very differently because their experiences show them that police is policing is done very differently in some communities.

11:05

People feel as though, police are protecting and serving and in other communities, not, you know, we did the book we interviewed again, hundreds of people, we talked to people in Philadelphia Chicago and New Orleans and, you know, repeatedly what people said was.

We need the police, we love the police, and when we need them, we call them.

11:21

Our problem is when they come We don’t know who was going to show up and that’s what people and that’s what people told us repeatedly in city after City and that creates a sense of marginalization, it creates a sense of mistrust.

11:37

If you see the crime rates in Chicago and other cities, you look at what happened this year, a couple weekends, I think when we going to Chicago with 73 shootings, another we can do is fifty six shootings.

Well how that impacts the police is if people don’t trust the police they’re not going to give them information.

11:53

To help solve crimes because you don’t tell people things if you don’t trust them.

It’s just, it’s just a natural manifestation of a relationship building.

So I think there’s a lot that can be done but it all begins with trust.

So I support the work that you are doing and trying to build those bridges.

12:10

No point intended.

But I think, once we get to the point where a bit with the bridges are built before the crisis happens, it’ll make things a lot easier to communicate when the crisis happens.

I mean, do you believe that in general?

Neural police acknowledged that.

There’s just this, this Gap, this lack of pressed.

12:28

I mean, we have communities so far as to say they feel harassed by police.

Do you think that’s acknowledged and recognized?

And if so, what are they doing to prove?

Sure.

There’s been a lot of things that happen who was the president.

12:46

Then president of the International Association of chiefs of police, he made a bold move, you know, at the National Conference and Amount of said, listen policing has not always been what it has, what it should have been.

And there are a lot of police leaders black white, Hispanic male women across all lines, that understand this and they talk about it frequently.

13:05

And then, there are those Brave leaders to come out and try to solve the problem by offering training to their officers and making it very clear that implicit bias training is essential that.

We’re not going to tolerate this and other departments are just too big and too unwielding too many layers.

And, you know, at the end of the day Percent number could cause a big problem in a department and in a community.

13:27

So to your point earlier about policing, the police it becomes a very, very important issue.

I don’t think that we can ignore the data and you know, the data shows what the data shows and we don’t create the data, the data creates itself.

So as I said in an interview last week, implicit bias and racism, are elements of society.

13:45

So, for anyone to suggest that those two evils, don’t permeate themselves into law enforcement, either has their head in the sand or They really shouldn’t be in the profession because it does those of us who work behind the scenes know that this is an issue in our organizations.

14:01

And it’s something that really if we want to deal with it, we need to acknowledge it.

So yeah, in fact you talk about in the bucket time when you even had begun her and cordial, without someone recognizing that you were a police officer.

Can you tell about experience?

14:18

Sure.

Well, I mean, at least, at least in one occasion if not more.

I know in the book, we talk about an operation Ocean where I was doing an undercover and I was purchasing guns and drugs from a defendant and when it came time to execute an arrest, a police officer who wasn’t even involved, in the case, got involved with the arrest and for whatever reason thought that I was defending and I end up with a gun in my face.

14:39

Well, some can say that that is a mistake that can happen but it’s a mistake that shouldn’t happen.

And and when you really start talking about implicit bias, one of the other cases we talked about in the book is the murder of Omar.

Homer Edwards was an African American police officer in New York and all he ever wanted to be his entire life was a police officer.

15:01

And when he completed his shift one evening, he went to his own vehicle, and observed it being broken into, he gave Chase as police officers, are trained to do, and when he caught up with the individual gun drawn, he was shot and killed by two white New York City, police officers, and it came in a case of mistaken identity.

15:21

Well, at the end of the day, anyone African-American who carries a gun and a badge knows that this is something that can happen.

If I was running down the street with a gun chasing someone, I could very well be mistaken because of those ingrain, you know, sort of implicit biases.

No one was no one would stop all of a sudden and say that might be a copy as a gun.

15:40

Or I think he’s a cop, he’s, you know, he’s right.

I mean, they wouldn’t know.

So these things happen and they and it happened all too often blue-on-blue fires, what we call it in your book and you do a deep dive.

I’ve about Ferguson you talk about Ferguson a lot after the shooting of Michael Brown in 2014, the justice department did an investigation and they found that.

16:04

They Civ pattern of racial bias within the police and court system and Ferguson including targeting black people for Scott’s, an arrest.

And we still do you think that that typical and most communities and think that Ferguson is typical Well I think that the issues are different every Community now.

16:25

What what stands out about Ferguson and you were talking about the what you’re talking about the outcomes and what the result of policing showing us, but in Ferguson, the investigation, also, shown that for years, there was this system of taxing and finding and arresting and can issue a warrant for members of the public for very small things.

16:46

There was also situations in Ferguson where someone get arrested for one thing and be charged with 10 or 12 violations.

And what that paused was that caused people to be sort of indentured to financial conditions that were caused by bad policing.

The other thing in Ferguson, there’s two issues you’re talking about one is policing, but the other one is the management.

17:06

So, in Ferguson you also had government leaders Finance, directors, Mayors and others that were implicit in the problem.

And they were creating this environment where police felt as though, Revenue was the driving factor for their policing.

And in this case, it was at it was at the You’re meant to the African-American Community but in many cases, it may not be.

17:26

So what we like to make clear in the book is that it’s not just one cop or three cops or four cops cops, they don’t create their own strategic plans.

They are they’re directed to do policing in a certain way and they’re incentivized by the outcomes of policing.

17:44

So that’s something that needs to be looked at on a broader scale and that’s why I believe dead on police reform is necessary.

And what wedgie?

Say would be like this green major areas that you would Target for police reform.

We work.

18:00

We would include hiring.

We would Target hiring Recruitment and accountability.

Yeah.

You talk a lot about this notion of a toxic Brotherhood with, in policing and police culture.

Can you just elaborate on that?

18:16

A little bit of things that, you know, most of us that come come on the job?

And I just had this discussion with someone today.

You know, the truth of the matter is we come on the job whenever it is we do and in many cases training officer, sort of How you sort of, come on and learn how to execute policing strategies, and in my case, and other cases, police officers are told to the very beginning.

18:38

Number one, what happens in this car stays in this car?

And number two, we don’t tell them to each other, you know?

It’s just one of those written or it’s not a written code, is Unwritten code.

And the reason why that happens is because we believe that we’re the only ones that understand what we go through in this difficult job that we do.

18:54

That everyone can’t do so.

Therefore we don’t tell another other cop.

So a lot of organizations are very deep strong in that culture.

Some organizations are not in some organizations is the opposite.

You are incentivized.

When you tell them other cops because the risks is far too great than the benefit.

19:11

And what are some of those cities that incentivize officers to speak out if they see Injustice and have you found that?

It’s helped.

Well, sure if you look at the situation like New Orleans with us, former superintendent Harrison in New Orleans, you know, he really him and his staff really turned around the department that had a criminal culture.

19:28

It wasn’t just One bad cop or two bad cops, New Orleans had police officers, who murder people and raped people, you know, when Hurricane Katrina happened, there will fund.

It was just unsolicited murders on the street, by police officers.

Michael Harrison has done a lot to incentivize officers and he’s off.

19:46

He’s also made an issue where if you see something and don’t tell your as accountable as the person who commits the act.

So he’s done some things and then there’s some other departments that have done, things related to officer wellness, and During that departments are looking out for their police officers Wellness.

20:02

If you see people going down a wrong rail, somebody needs to step in and yank them back into, you know, control whether it be because they’re having a lifestyle issue, problems or financial challenges, you just can’t let people who need to show compassion and empathy to members of the public.

20:19

Just go out on their own, especially if they start to have issues dead on that impede their judgement shall we say.

So, what is the help here?

I mean, How will this change?

Is this something that needs to be regulated at the federal level?

20:34

It seems like there’s just a wide variety, like one person could be good.

What are not doing?

Such a great job.

So how do we get more consistency across the board?

Well, you know, some people have called for National policing standards, that’s very difficult and in the world we live in because of home rule, you know counties and towns and states and want to have the ability to manage their own challenges.

20:58

Right.

And And, you know, I’ve called for an other law enforcement leaders to call for National higher extenders.

You know, currently you can right now, as we sit here, I’m in Louisiana, right?

And in Louisiana, things could be.

In other words, when you get on the job, can you be hired at 19, 20, 21, or do we need to wait till people have life experience?

21:19

And do they need to be 25 years old before TV police officer?

Do you have to take a polygraph or not?

Take a polygraph?

Do you need college?

Or do you not need college?

Did you have been in the military?

So many different higher extenders, all around the country, then you can get a different type of recruit.

21:34

Everywhere you go some in New Jersey.

I remember where I work, you couldn’t give polygraph Examination for a pre-employment.

Well, polygraph examinations are normal and customary for policing where you need people to have integrity.

That’s beyond reproach.

Some departments.

21:50

Don’t do it though.

All right, so what does an average citizen do if they recognize that there is implicit?

Bias in the system.

And that there is police brutality that there is crime and Injustice.

22:06

What does someone like me?

I mean, I’m a stay-at-home mom, how in the world would I change that?

Right?

Well, depends on your, trust in the system, I would say.

In general terms, every police department has an internal affairs Bureau.

You can write a letter and send a link to a video.

22:22

Ask to speak to someone, in the upper level chain of command.

Now, while that sounds like the right thing to do.

That’s what someone a young Lady.

We write about in the book did in New Orleans.

She saw she saw something that she knew was wrong.

She reported it to the New Orleans.

New Orleans Police Department, and she ended up being killed by a street though.

22:39

There was hired by a detective in the New Orleans police.

So, depending on where you live and depending on how much you trust, the system is really going to guide, how you deal with that issue.

They’re supposed to be those checks and balances in place, though, are there organizations that he trusts that are actively working for police reform that you feel is a good thing.

22:59

Sure.

Well, there are a lot of police organizations that I do trust.

We look at organizations like the cops program, ICP the National Organization of black law, enforcement Executives.

All of those organizations are really working to improve Services if you will.

A lot of many times though, people disagree as to what needs to be improved and that happens because of their limbs.

23:18

So people are going to disagree or agree based on what their experiences are.

So there are still people that say and I learned this in writing the book.

We heard from people that would say whenever I see a police car And somebody’s pulled off on the side of the road.

I immediately think that someone’s done something wrong.

23:35

Well, that’s, that’s, that’s their limbs in their perspective and then you here, and then you hear from other people to say, every time you see someone pulled off on the side of the road, they stopped the look to make sure everything is okay, and make sure the police are, don’t they’re supposed to do so.

It just all depends on the lens that people bring to the table.

23:53

Is there anything that you would like to mention here?

I mean if someone wanted to financially contribu or just get more involved in Organization that working for police work, won’t perform.

Where will they start?

What I think there are a lot of organization.

Your organization is a great example because you know with grants for grant money organizations can work with police organizations the sort of create that bridge of communication.

24:15

So the organization I mentioned are certainly a viable and they can be very Noble, National Organization of black law, enforcement Executives, they work to find solutions that work to find Solutions.

But said everybody all the thought leaders all the – that were most of the Chiefs around the country.

24:32

If you ask them at the chief level, the executives people who are responsible for resources.

They will tell you that they understand that it’s an imperfect system.

What?

They don’t know, they don’t know the solution to create a better system for better holistic system because the chief in Tucson, he might have he or she may have the answer in Tucson but they don’t have to answer in Delaware and his sheep in Miami.

24:52

Don’t have the answer in Albuquerque and it’s really, it’s a very complicated issue, but we have to do something and we have to Recognize that we have a problem and try to work for solution.

We look at outcome based measures.

Yes, absolutely evidence-based, mr.

25:09

Horace, I just want to thank you for your book, you told it full of the stories tonight, briefly, but your book is literally filled with story after story where I found myself in tears, or I was my jaw was dropping because even though in some level, I know that those things happen, To read the personal stories and how it’s affected people at this.

25:32

It’s truly heartbreaking and eye-opening.

And so, I urge everyone to buy the book.

And I thank you for speaking out and for telling the truth.

Because one thing that we do, believe that the intelligent that racial reconciliation will not happen without truth and I think your book is a great step in that direction to thank you sir.

25:53

No problem.

Well you know I really believe if you want to get the people’s heads you got to touch their heart.

So we’re hoping that This book touches enough hearts that we get to enough heads and we can start some healing and Reconciliation the United States.

Well, we will put a link to your book down in the comments and where can people find you if they want to learn more about your work ww?

26:14

Dot Matthew Harvest.com, I travel the country speaking, I just had a speaking engagement today here at Grambling University.

I’m more than willing to come out and speak to folks about the book about the culture about the broader issue and you know, ideas on how we get Better.

26:30

Okay, thank you sir.

Thank you.

Have a great evening UT by.

Thank you for listening to this.

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