Episode 103 | White Awake: An Honest Look at What it Means to be White with Daniel Hill

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In this episode, Latasha Morrison speaks with pastor and author Daniel Hill about his abrupt awakening to whiteness at the age of 24 and the implications of being a white man in America. Latasha and Daniel explore the journey expressed through his book White Awake: An Honest Look at What it Means to be White, which walks readers through seven stages of cultural awakening.

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Not all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization.

This transcript is ai generated and has not been checked for errors.

0:00

Hi be the Bridge Community.

What you’re about to listen to is a Facebook live interview that we had in the past that we thought that will be helpful for this season in our country.

So, I want you to sit back and listen because this information could be helpful and hopeful.

0:16

And so, as we always say, we want you to listen, we want you to learn, we want you to lament and we want you to leverage, so enjoy You’re listening to sounds of Justice.

0:34

A be the bridge podcast.

My name is Tasha Morrison and I am the founder and also the CEO of beat the bridge.

And so, what we’re doing is, we want to highlight people from our be the Bridge community that are authors that have written books that are in line with the mission and vision be the bridge.

0:57

And so I met Daniel Probably.

Maybe two years ago at a conference up at North Park University, met him there and you know, I knew a little bit of him because of a Blog that he wrote several years ago that we were using.

1:17

When we first started the be the bridge group, a friend of mine named, Judy had found this blog, that Daniel had written and so we started using that.

So I knew about him and just just Glad to my mom, but let me just let you know a little bit about Daniel.

1:35

He is a senior pastor at River City Community Church.

This is a church that has a vision of being multi-ethnic community of Jesus followers who transformed the city of Chicago through worship reconciliation and neighborhood development.

1:52

He started the church in 2003.

He also wanted to demonstrate compassion and leaving it.

Alleviating poverty in the expressions of the kingdom of God, God prior to this, Daniel actually worked at Willow Creek Community Church for five years and access.

2:14

So he led up their Young Adult Ministry.

So he has a BS in business from Purdue University.

Ma a masters of arts and biblical studies.

From you moody, I’m theological and assist certificate and faith-based Community Development from Harvard.

2:31

The amenity school and a DM, good gracious, Danny and a seminary.

And so, he has written a pair of books, 9:50 life, to the fullest and wide awake with intervarsity press.

2:53

He’s married.

And he has two children.

And with his children graced us with their presence.

Before we entered before we went live.

I could see him but he couldn’t see me.

And his kids were born.

They were getting the best of him.

They were attacking him.

It was really good.

3:10

But so we’re glad to have you guys here tonight.

And Daniel, we just going to go ahead and get started before we get started.

We have another person that’s on the screen.

I’m we have Elizabeth how it is coming to us live from Kansas City, Missouri!

3:27

I got a right, right?

He’s trying to put her in Kansas and she is not in Kansas, she’s in Missouri and Elizabeth is one of our community, managers Community engagement manager for be the bridge.

3:42

She’s working on several projects with us.

She also oversees along with several other people, but she’s kind of helping organize the Facebook group.

And I’m so if you see her name a lot, she’s done a lot of stuff with that.

And then, in this work of bridge-building, you know, especially with me being African-American, I try Have you know, people of different ethnicities?

4:04

I have to have people of different ethnicities around me, getting input from different people and especially Elizabeth has done a lot of work, as it relates to understanding why identity and what it means to be white.

And she and Stephanie Nan and also wrote the whiteness 101.

4:21

So, if you’re wondering why, why is Elizabeth on their Elizabeth isn’t fair?

Because he’s just working.

We’re going to tell you about some things that we’re going to be doing this summer of whiteness 101.

So Daniel are you ready for the, be the Bridge Community?

We’re going to open it up to you guys at the end.

4:39

Make sure your posted and let people know we are alive.

I think this is going to be a great interview and we don’t want people to miss it, we will share it.

And once we’re finished, we’ll share it in our groups.

But we want people to hear what that has to say.

4:54

He’s done a lot of work with this.

Then you, if you can, if you can just tell us if I miss anything from your bio.

I said anything wrong, you can correct that.

But if you can just tell me a little bit about yourself and your journey to writing this book what what made you think about writing wide awake?

5:16

What was the journey to you writing this book?

Well like most questions like that there’s could be a really long answer but I’ll try to give a short succinct answer you know, most of my life unfortunately.

5:31

Definitely, I was brought face to face with opportunities to think about these things and just chose not to live in denial dismiss them and so I really will meant that.

It took me so long to begin to engage this.

It was really kind of innocuous work began.

I was working at Willow Creek.

5:47

I was in my young 20s, you know, at the time was one of most influential white kind of Evangelical churches in the country.

But I still wasn’t think about the stuff.

And it started with it was weddings with one of the things that was really scary for me.

The young minister, right?

It’s like, you can kind of mess.

6:04

A lot of things up and get away with it, became to a wedding.

So, that was always a very scary thing.

So, the fourth or fifth wedding, I did was the first Intercultural wedding, and it was a white bridesmaid, and the groom was from India, and he told me that I was going to get a deep dive and Indian culture, especially at the rehearsal dinner the night before.

6:22

And so I was actually looking forward to that and it was indeed, you know, the food, the sights, the smells was all, you know, very amazing to me.

They even had this kind of Dance.

I think it’s called the DMV Advance.

Where was a stick dance and I got no rhythm.

And it’s hard to get me out on the dance floor, but on this day, even I was out there with that.

6:38

And so the whole thing was just very, very made a very amazing experience.

I went up to him and gave what I meant to be a compliment.

I said, man, I am so jealous of you, you know, as a white person, I really don’t have any culture.

I’m so jealous of the fact that you’ve got some of culture and thank you for inviting me.

But instead of hearing that as a compliment, he stopped and on the night before his wedding get very serious and he really did this.

6:58

I specially was expecting on the night before his wedding, but he put his hand on my shoulder.

Sir, he said, Daniel not only do you have a culture when your culture comes in contact with other cultures, it wins almost every single time, hopefully learn about your culture.

Didn’t hit it off back out on the dance floor and kind of left me with, kind of a door open to a whole world that I needed to enter, but didn’t even really know how to begin to and though that wasn’t the first time somebody that probably ever happened was the first time that got really used it.

7:24

So, like seize the moment and say, yeah, there’s a whole reality happening around me that I don’t understand.

And it’s kind of wrapped up in this idea.

There’s this one culture that I’m unaware of and then the power dynamics, both scary and even offensive to me that, you know, when my culture comes in contact with others, that always wins.

7:39

But that was really I think I was 24 when that Happened and so that’s really where the Journey of this began and so you know I don’t know which part you want to talk about there was kind of a 56 year Journey when I was at Willow on that, there was kind of a deepening of my own kind of Theology.

And the sense that even though I had grown up in a pastor’s kid growing up in bible-believing settings, I’d never developed a theological lens for thinking about this stuff.

8:01

And then, as I eventually kind of transitioned out of with implanted, the church, they’re just have consistently been white folks.

Well, they’ve been people, every culture background.

So try to have a theological frame for understanding cultural identities that important But then understanding that there’s something kind of peculiar about being white and trying to understand that because you’re doing it against the backdrop of white American culture, that makes it kind of more important, but also more complicated.

8:22

So, so.

So that’s what I was working on the honest truth is, I promised God, I would never write a book on Race.

So this wasn’t my intention.

I thought the let you know when I started River City almost every book I could find on race was written by a white male.

And so the last thing I want to do is perpetuate this problem.

8:39

So I literally did promise God I never would and it’s so, wasn’t it?

There was a consistent chorus of kind of mentors of color my life, who continue to say, no, there is a place for white people talk to white people about their own journey and kind of Drew that out and even still.

It was only, it was, it was through a series of the kind of conversations where I began to sense maybe God was leading a different direction but I still feel very sheepish about the whole thing.

9:01

I’m not like I’m not seeing myself as you know, God’s answer to what white people to do on something.

I’m just trying to kind of share some of my story.

What I’ve learned and hope that it’s helpful as part of the larger.

A movement that God’s doing.

And when you when you first started into when he said, you know, not only do you have a culture but when your culture intersects with other culture, it dominates?

9:24

Yeah.

So the guarantee when you when you because this is the thing that I realize when I’m going in and doing trainings within churches and organizations, a lot of white people feel like they don’t have a culture.

And so why, why do we why?

9:44

White people have that thought process that there’s no culture or ethnic identity.

Like, even when we talk about ethnicities, you know, a lot of times why people don’t feel like there’s an ethnicity.

Can you just speak a little bit into that?

10:00

I know that’s a deep question and there’s a lot of layers with that but just in your best way, how would you answer that?

Like and and just maybe the work that you did.

After he said that because I know I had you thinking It from that thinking to writing your blog and exploring what it meant to be white.

10:21

How did you come about that?

Well, I do think when you’re waiting American, we’re talking about sending American context, right?

So, I think that there is a global reality of white supremacy.

That’s all sorts of scouting, but I’m talking about a kind of in the North American context here.

I think there’s unchosen ignorance and their chosen ignorance nice.

10:38

So I think, to some degree, it is not our for like, to grow up white in this country, is to be Of an active campaign to not address these things, right?

I mean, they’re actually is literally a Rewritten history, right?

It does not tell the truth, right?

I mean, this, it’s unfair to even call it a sanitized history because that doesn’t go far enough.

10:54

It’s a, it’s a, it’s an incorrect, it’s not true history, right?

We’re told the think of Thanksgiving as native folks and white folks happily sitting around a picnic table celebrating the discovered, the new world, right?

I mean, it just couldn’t be further from the truth of the genocide that actually happened, right?

We’re taught to think what slavery is like, somehow white, Christians, providing a gift for black people.

11:14

We came over here, right?

That there’s these happy Plantation, right?

I mean, it’s though, it’s not, it’s not sanitized, it’s just literally on true, right?

So the horrors that are kind of behind the creation of the system of race are so terrible, that there’s an active campaign, I think to hide those right.

So, so there’s going to be a starting point that just unchosen ignorance but then, when you start to see that, that’s not true and that experience after experience and friendships and the media and the broader World shows us, that’s not true.

11:40

Then I think we the terms, I use that they seem Similar.

But different like, I feel like I started a full-fledged denial, which I think denials when you just don’t want to know the truth.

And then I think it went to defensive, right?

Like, I think defensive is when you think something’s out there but you’re still Defending Your Turf, Defending Your territory.

11:56

And when he told me that that’s in, this is not much progress made, but I went from denial to defensive, right.

So I was starting to realize something was there.

But my posture of initially was not one of learning and humility was one of Defending that can’t be right that my culture always wins, it can’t be right?

That all white people can be lumped in, right?

12:12

So it was a very deep sense of place that I Started before really coming to a place of kind of a more humble and honest learning process.

Okay, so even with you in this, you started out with this level of the Nile defensive kind of corn.

12:28

Today is like, fragility.

You know what made you like, what was your breakthrough?

Because there’s people that are listening now and maybe they’re in this Denial.

On maybe there’s family members, our friends that they have that are in this.

12:44

This place of denial.

What type of work did you have to get to do on yourself and introspection on yourself, to get to this point where you were kind of able to cross this barrier and become allow someone to teach you or get to this place of humility where you can listen at, what, what, you know, was it someone that helped you came along with you, was it a book that you read or TV show?

13:12

You know what what help You kind of conquer that barrier?

This is where I’m glad whenever I can talk about this and from a Christian perspective, because I’m doing a lot of stuff in the business realm to.

And I can’t really talk about theology there.

But the honest truth is, it was theology that shifted things for me, as I start to rust, which is the very basic claim that he is Christ that he’s come to bring a new Kingdom, right?

13:34

That we’re to pray.

Thy kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.

As I stir to got, kind of pulled into the sweeping nature of what it means to Bear, allegiance, to the King of Kings.

It’s when it’s becoming apparent to me that white Christians experience the world differently.

Lee than Christians of color do, right?

13:50

And as I went on this journey defensively initially, but as I went on this journey, I started to realize, oh no, whatever the issue is by and large, there’s always exceptions by and large white Christians.

Have one experience of it increases of color, especially the more marginalized person of color, have a completely different experience of it and so I actually started be deeply rattle of saying.

14:10

I think it’s possible that I don’t actually have any idea.

What’s happening around me?

Look like they’ve been kind of an altered reality that’s been Ties for, you know, my experience of it.

And that if that’s where this theme of kind of the biblical theme of helped me go from blindness to sight, became very important for me, where I start to feel like oh my gosh, I’m blind, I literally can’t see the world around me and if I don’t listen to the truth that they could be the church that are the Christians of color in the church and and help beg them to help me see the world as it is, I’m just going to stay then this like totally illusionary kind of reality and it really did hit that deep for me.

14:48

And then there’s a long process of how to start filling that in.

But there was a fundamental shift for me that of Jesus Christ coming to bring his kingdom on Earth, that it must have something to do with all the Injustice races and we’re seeing and that the white church was just clearly not capable of helping me in that journey.

And then I want to talk a little bit about like I know like even as having this conversation this being a live broadcast.

15:10

When you start having talks like this, I know on the other side of this, people will tell you that you hate your race.

Or that you, you know, yourself 18 and this is not true, but I know you had to deal with a lot of that, from your, your, your white brothers and sisters.

15:30

And I know you did a talk to me a little bit.

You did a CNN interview and some years ago, I forget what was happening.

I think it was some protest.

I can’t remember which situation our hashtag.

It was related to, but just tell me a little bit about that, that kind of puts you on.

15:48

On this National platform in this sense that something that you didn’t ask for, you were just praying and what you prayed brought controversy.

Well, there’s there, there’s these police brutality cases all up and down the country, right.

16:03

So one of the big ones in Chicago was laquan McDonald.

Who was was it was shot, you know, multiple times unnecessarily and then what made it even worse as in this case of Chicago was covered up from, for a long period of time.

So when it finally came out to the news it was kind of that it was Just a devastating reality, it really shook the whole city of Chicago.

16:21

So so group of African-American Pastors in the South Side, organized, a prayer rally in front of the Chicago Police Department, which is on the south side, and there were just a series of prayers asking for God’s kind of judgment repentance Etc.

And so they invited me to be part of that.

And so we each had an assigned topic.

16:39

So, mine was repentance and So within the prayer of repentance I included, kind of repentance for the white complicity at large and the white church is City within kind of the state of race.

And so, you know, it very much was an exercise in privilege because there was multiple pastors, who were not white, who pray, that didn’t get media attention.

16:58

But CNN jumped onto me doing it from a white perspective.

And so, you know, I asked my kind of Pastor friends, if I should take this and they said, hey, you’re going to get on there and say the same thing we say behind the public, every single Sunday.

But this is how the world works, right?

So we do want you step into that space and name.

This?

Why repent is important?

17:13

So going into it I was really, I felt really clear from the holy That it was important to really emphasize the repentance piece, you know.

And I was having flashbacks of my Assemblies of God growing up days where like the Apex of life was to get on national TV and talk about Jesus, right?

17:29

If I can get on there and talk, so it was really a unique opportunity for 7 minutes.

I got to be a Brooke Baldwin and talk about why repentance is so important and how race is a big part of that especially those are white.

So I was expecting to come off, you know, whatever to be in like, wow, this is, uh, National opportunity for repentance and I didn’t get out of the studio and I had hundreds of Of messages, hate messages from White Christians, who were just furious that.

17:53

I had tied repentance to racism and it wasn’t new to have push back with my community, but it was not as your company.

It was just on a much larger scale and was actually a much cooler scale than I’ve ever experienced it before.

We had threats for just weeks on end, back in a strange.

18:08

Twist of irony, we had to have the Chicago police come undercover to church the next week because I had talked about Chicago, Police cover-up, you know, because they’re the enough of the threats have been seen as kind of are Viable, you know, and so it was just, it was a very sobering.

I felt like there was a tiny tiny Glimpse, you know, of seeing what?

18:24

It’s like to be what you experience every day, right?

To like just sense the hatred, the lives under the surface.

And so many pockets in fact that happened from church folks was particularly demoralizing but certainly a wake-up call.

Why do you think we have this pushback?

Because when we look at the word of that, and we look at our, hopefully, our theological framework has space to understand that racism is, It’s thin.

18:50

And send should be repented of.

So, what was their argument to tie?

You know, racism and repentance to get what I came for me?

For the life of me?

I can’t understand why anyone would push against that.

19:05

I mean, we understand what what?

You know where that’s coming from.

But I would just want to hear your perspective on, you know, as a as a white person the pushback and not telling repentance To the thin of racism, I think it’s an important question.

19:25

It’s when I’m in churches, where the ones I’m actually trying to address.

I think I dress, I think when it comes so I can kind of go like biblical reflection for a moment.

I think when it comes to thinking about race, white Christians have a very pharisaic own kind of approach to it, you know.

So I’m often drawn to that Luke 5 passage where Levi’s becomes a Christian Levi, the tax collector, Jesus calls him to join and Levi has all of his friends come over and Jesus is with them and the Pharisees coming to say.

19:50

Why does Jesus spend time with the Sinners, frightened Jesus.

Famously said, it’s not the healthy who need a doctor, but sick, you know, I’m not come to call the righteous, but the unrighteous and I think what, what blew the minds of the Pharisees that the only way they understood how to organize themselves into evaluate, whether it be successful is to say there’s good things you do as a ferrocene is bad things you don’t do, right?

20:09

So you keep the laws to be in, you don’t break the laws.

That’s what makes us who we are right in Jesus undercut that he said it’s not about what you do and don’t do.

Of course that’s important right?

But he But he said it’s not really about what you’re doing.

Don’t do right, it’s about a disease, it’s about as thickness.

20:25

And until you can see yourself a sick, you can actually stick and do good deeds or give me second, do bad Deeds, but that’s just not what’s most important the D, right?

What’s most important is under understanding this underlying sickness, right?

Until white Christians, understand that racism is primarily disease more than it is an action point of what I’m doing or not doing.

20:44

So what why Christians do is actually the same thing, the white secular folks do they Define racism to narrowly they Say, racism is when an individual person does something really cruel to a person of color, right?

Or maybe says something politically incorrect on a softer and and therefore walk or not racist to not do bad things to not say, bad things to not.

21:03

Align yourself with the people who do bad things and so the implication like if you’re if you’re going to prove everybody that you’re woke or that you’re on the right side and then somebody like me comes and says we need to repent.

It actually is seen as a threat, right?

Like they like your it’s enough.

It’s enough setting of The Very way that they organized, the way that they view it.

21:20

It’s what I’m trying to say is I’m not the superior one pointing my finger you saying, you’re the inferior one.

I’m saying you and I both breathe this air, that’s been part of the foundation of our country that in its very atmosphere says, whiteness is more valuable Blackness is least valuable everybody else has to find their human work somewhere within that Spectrum that’s poisonous.

21:41

It’s ugly.

Its demonic, it’s sick and it’s in the air.

We breathe it.

Don’t matter what you say, how politically correct?

You are not the minute.

You are back out.

There’s room right?

We’re all Hearing the message a thousand different ways around the position of superiority and inferiority and where human work comes from.

And I think as long as we’re trying to measure a my politically correct enough, or am I woke enough, or am I in the right side of my line?

22:02

We’ve already lost the game, right?

We’re being very fair, say called and saying, who’s in and who’s out.

And I think that happens a lot in both secular occurs in spaces.

And so, the repentance things, I think is even more important than ever, because it paid it, realizes with the gospel, right?

Where it’s like, you don’t prove that you’re a white person.

22:19

You come in, the god.

One say Jesus, I’m I’m breathe in a devastating toxin in this thing called raising.

You’re the only one who can help me out of this thing.

And it’s only then that you can authentically live in a humble posture.

Otherwise there’s no chance you’ll just keep trying to prove to everybody that you’re Walker than other white people.

22:35

Mmm.

And one of the things I’ve heard you say, twice when you you said that you didn’t start out trying to write a book because the books that you were worried about race, had only been from white people, you know?

Before.

22:50

And then you said, when it was this time to do this prayer, you I think you asked some people of color to see if you should do that.

And so I want, I want the process.

I’ve heard you say that twice where you kind of want it permission and people of color to speak on this.

23:09

I want to know why and what can you learn as a community from, you know, how you’ve taken the lead on that?

Like why are you In permission from people of color to speak.

Let’s talk a little bit about that.

23:25

So my fundamental belief really is that to be white in this is to just have really no clue how the world Works along racial lines, the blindness to sight thing I think is really important.

I think it’s also one of the primary biblical motifs, right?

That whether it’s the Apostle Paul needing ananias to, you know, take the scales off or whether it’s Peter needing Cornelius, before he can see the gospel.

23:44

Clearly, I just think to be white and be serious about this is to embrace the fact that I’m blind And and needing to see and I need the help of my mentors and friends who are walk with.

So I don’t feel like that used to be true of me and not like somehow graduated like, I very much feel just as much now that that’s what true, like I can’t see clearly, so that doesn’t invalidate music human being.

24:06

It doesn’t mean that I can’t participate at some level, but it always means I can’t see clearly, right?

So, I will never say yes or speaking imitation, I’ll never say yes to speak into stepping into environment, I don’t do anything in my own church without running it past the others and staff who In ways, I can’t see, right?

24:21

So I just would even to this day.

I would never trust myself to rely on my own instincts on anything has to do with race or impacting people who are affected by race.

So I’m humbled by the fact that there are communities of color who welcomed me into those circles.

But I followed their lead, always, there’s no Circle that I don’t do that, including my own church.

24:39

And so little bit of a weird thing like 10 grand to Pastor, you know, the title of Louis Pasteur.

Senior pastor, whatever.

But my own true knows it’s like we’re doing this together and I would never try to do something that wasn’t run past.

At them and had their total alignment on and permission on, really.

I mean, I just, I just, I would never trust my own instincts and so Elizabeth is all here and I want to just to I know she has a question for you.

25:02

So I wanted her to have an opportunity to ask you a question.

She’s done a lot of work with our our whiteness 101 and dealing with white culture, white fragility, and and then we’ve mentioned it a little bit special.

25:20

When you’re talking about the Nile and defensiveness, but I wanted to give her opportunity to actual question.

Yeah, he Daniel the like my Tasha said, you a lot of work with identity development and so I’m just curious.

25:35

I know, in your book, you reference one of my favorite books that I’m always recommending to people all the time.

I really Daniel Tatum’s book, why are all the black kids sitting in the cafeteria and I was just wondering what part of your journey was influenced by.

Learning about that process of white racial identity.

25:53

How did that?

How did that knowledge of identity formation shape?

Your process moving forward?

She tells this story that is so simple yet.

So haunting to me as you, well, know, and it, but when she sees, when she introduces, the idea of racial identity development or cultural identity development, she tells the story of two seventh grade girls, right?

26:13

A seventh grade after American Girl and some Craig white girl who are together in an integrated school.

And she uses that as an example of how Once an adolescent, you start thinking about identity through the lens of culture and race, how these Journeys going to go in different ways, right?

So it’s sheets so doctor, but dr.

Tatum starts with the African-American girl, so she’s sitting in her classroom with a Tatum just called him mr.

26:34

Smith so mr.

Smith is a white teacher.

He’s awoke white teacher.

You know, that’s at this school because he cares about racial diversity, and so he’s also the head of the school dance.

And so he’s telling everybody in the classroom that they should have come to the dance.

And so he has 27, great black.

Girl, she’s coming, she says no.

26:50

So he really tries to sell her on it.

So finally, she’s very vulnerable, she confesses the reason.

She can’t she says you know, this is an integrated school but it’s in a white neighborhood.

So those of us who are black, are here we get Bustin, right?

So if there’s an extracurricular activity, we just can’t do it.

And so he’s just tone-deaf.

He misses it.

He keeps going, keeps trying to convince her, you know, she just tried to drop it.

27:07

And so his last thing he thinks he’s being cute.

He says, ah, come on I thought all you people love to dance.

First rotate them kind of talked about how that comment just lands like a bomb on her right?

Because she could never prove that mr.

Smith saw her as inferior to the white students, but that comment really lands and way that makes her suspect that he sees her as different, right?

27:26

So she is, she’s going to burst into tears.

So she goes on the search for her best friend, who just happens to be white.

And up until this point race is not a big part of their friendship, right?

So, she goes and tells this to her wife friend in the very first responsibly white-fronted goes, oh, come on mr.

Smith works at the school because he cares about all people.

He’s not a racist.

27:42

Clearly, that’s not what he meant.

You’re overreacting to it.

Like in that moment, something just breaks inside that little black, seventh graders heart, right?

Where it’s like, if she would have heard anything else, her white friend probably would have just said, oh man, that sounds terrible.

What the tell me more.

But for whatever reason was hardwired in this, what young white girls say to give the benefit about doubts, mr.

28:00

Smith immediately right in to discredit any possibility that this narrative around racial Superior and inferior.

He was part of how he was organizing his classroom, right?

And so, she feels devastate.

Still loves her friends.

Still cares about his friend but something happens.

Right that moment.

She says, when it comes Um’s issues of race.

28:17

I can’t trust white people with this because they can’t see.

Right.

And so their path begin to go in different directions and that black girl finds other black girls who can understand maybe mr.

Smith method.

Maybe he didn’t, but the possibility has to be examined, right?

She’s a safe place for that.

Kind of stuff can be discussed and like a probably innocently just kind of goes on oblivious to what happens?

28:36

And that’s where dr.

Tatum story was so helpful me to go.

Like, it really is for the white person.

There’s so much wrapped up in round learning to see what we can’t see because it’s Or experience in.

I feel like what she describes as a seventh grader, is what was true of my friends in high school who didn’t see?

28:52

It was true.

My friends in college who couldn’t see it is true, my 20-something friends, you can’t see it is true.

My 40-something friends who can’t see, right?

And until Jesus disrupts our world enough to say, there are decades now experiences that I haven’t seen because it didn’t negatively impact me.

We have no chance to I think with and genuine authentic Community.

29:09

People, who do see this clearly in are affected by to the daily basis.

Yeah, sort of follow up on that.

That you know, we also talked a little bit earlier touched on white fragility a little bit, you know, we see it in that Story come out in the white friend who just her, fragility, shows in the way she dismisses her friend, what are some other ways within Church communities?

29:33

Particularly that you see, white fragility play out and the way you see, it affect people who are trying to step into those spaces whether they’re people of color, or you coming into a space trying, It helped open people’s eyes to these realities.

This is what I love.

29:50

So, yeah, it’s case viewers are oh, sure, of course, putting doctor, I’m Robyn D’Angelo right.

She’s on her coinage.

Agility.

I would really care to hear her take on this.

I’m fine with you’re saying, I want to answer the question.

I actually wouldn’t say that’s why fragility what the white girl did.

I wouldn’t say why probability I I don’t think the fragilis shows up until we actually start interacting with this stuff.

30:09

I would say this point, it’s just till ignorance, it’s still just chosen denial.

It’s just oblivious this right and oftentimes In.

But we’re not even being pushed enough to have that can be considerate of fragility.

So, but that might be too maybe she would as a, you know, so I’m not trying to answer that for her.

30:25

I’d be curious her take on that.

I’ll have to read her new book where I, where I see why fragility.

Particularly important is when people actually when a light bulb goes on and I think this is another common mistake for us, who are white 10 watt, light bulb goes on this episode series, we often treat that as an end points that I was starting point.

30:43

We think the light bulb means, now that we see, instead of saying like, It’s a beginning to a long journey, right?

So when the light bulb goes off the Long Journey Begins I think there’s a sense of enthusiasm that carries us early on when we start to wrestle with these things.

When we start to see how deep it goes when we start to discover our own complicity with it, which I think is really hard when we just start to discover that despite our best attempts to not be racist, we’ve internalized some voice premise and kinds of ideologies.

31:11

When we realize that we still have implicit biases towards people that we wish weren’t there, but are there All of those things fatigue has disorient us.

They disrupt kind of our worldview.

And that’s where I see why fertility being very, very serious.

And in my own church, I have to be like there’s been some great, great white folks, I don’t want to diminish the ones who are doing this work.

31:30

But more often than I see a white person who comes in hot saying I’m here because I care about this and 18 months later they’re out and it’s over, it’s over, it’s over, it’s over, it’s discourage.

This is risky for me as a white person.

I can only imagine that exponential discouraging for others who are One of these people.

31:48

Yeah.

So that’s where I think the fragility becomes important.

When the light bulb gets turned on.

And you think you’re now an ally or walking down this road.

And then there’s just one one wave of disorientation after another that comes from that point forward and sometimes it is.

It’s just a simple.

As you have a guts in the wherewithal to keep moving forward.

32:04

Even when you feel discouraged, feel good, feel disoriented.

I think that’s so good and I love, you know, I love when she asked that question.

And I think this is something that we can all learn.

I see a constant decentering of yourself in this and I think that’s something is really good.

32:23

That as you do this work kind of deconstructing and understanding your in your your identity and intersex with others.

There’s this constant these symptoms.

So something, you know, one of the things you were, you know, just saying even And here, you said, you know, I don’t, I don’t, I would want to know what Robyn D’Angelo would have to say about that.

32:46

Because sometimes as we learn a lot of information, and as we become experts in something, we don’t remain teachable, you know?

And we start, you know, in this work especially as you become allies.

And we’ve had people like this and group and, you know, as people become allies sometimes they think they have all the answers and they don’t remain.

33:09

That ability doesn’t stay there and so they start centering themselves again.

So I know this is like a constant V Center in a constant process that you’re learning, you know, to kind of give of yourself but also give space you know, for correction for growth or humility.

33:32

Not having all the answers.

Do you find that difficult to do or has it Really become more of a discipline for you.

Yes, or no.

I mean, I never loved here, like, you know.

So even just last Sunday in the context of worship.

33:50

I talked about, I quoted Pastor Dee Macintosh with my favorite Pastor, she’s a black female, Pastor Minneapolis, and she this great servant and worship, where she says that when we talk about expressiveness, sometimes we racialize it where, like, it’s expected the Black and Latino can express it, but we don’t expect that out of everybody else.

34:07

So I quoted her in the car, just in a Real time in worship and I just happen to add.

We don’t ask that of white and Asian people, you know, and so the minute Church ended one of my clothes.

Curry American friend said, you know, I totally follow the spirit where you were going right there like when you just lumped all Asian people in like that.

34:23

Like then that’s not your like I came from accident background, where it’s very expressive, right?

So, just lump all Asians in and look with whites, I think was a Cavalier thing to kind of, do you know what?

School Your Heart, Right?

So, everything in you wants to go.

I didn’t mean that I was trying to say this.

I should be above That and I said, right?

34:40

But it’s just like, that’s just part, she loves me and she’s totally supportive of me being, right?

So this wasn’t a.

So, therefore, you’re not qualified to do this anymore, it was just trusting that.

I’m going to continue to take the blindness to sight stuff seriously, right?

And that we’ve already got a practice kind of relationship where those thing where that stuff is welcomed, right?

34:57

So so I don’t love it any more than anything like you never liked hearing that once.

Again, you kind of stepped in a way that was not helpful for people.

But I also a I know that I can’t grow without That in be I do think it’s helpful to realize that for me, it was important.

35:14

I came I went to Willow, I was under Bill hybels, right?

That’s the old school of leadership.

You’re supposed to know everything and take people there and leave them there.

And that’s how I try to start with River City.

And that lasted about two weeks you know it was when I started saying when I started embracing my blindness to sight that was when people of color started to trust me more and it was super counterintuitive to me that when I try to act like I know what I’m doing, nobody trusted me.

35:36

But when I kept embracing the fact that I’m On a journey blindness to sight which suddenly people weren’t a walk with me.

And so, I mean, that was 15 plus years ago.

So I’ve come to truly believe that.

Now that means I’m sure some people that doesn’t work for, but the the wonderful comrades I have in this tub.

Don’t follow me because they think I understand this stuff.

35:53

Well, they found because they trust my heart, win this stuff to be humble and listen and so that means a lot to me.

I never want to dishonor that by suddenly trying to act, like I’m the chosen one or something, you know, I mean, that would just ruin everything we built.

And two more questions before we open it up for other people.

36:09

To ask questions, I want and those of you if you have questions, you can go ahead and start posted them, Elizabeth is going to capture those but I wanted to talk about chapter 7.

When you talk about shame and guilt in our the bridge guide you know we have a section dealing with shame and guilt because that’s one of the things that as people become more aware and acknowledge their their understanding history context like all these things.

36:36

This.

There’s a shade and sometimes people start reacting out of that.

Shame in that guilt.

I want you to just talk a little bit about that and maybe giving advice to people who are in that process or that stage.

36:52

Yeah, yeah, I certainly went through that pretty intense way myself, so I’m sympathetic to it.

I’m also, I can, I’ve seen so many times.

How, how much is completely shuts?

Somebody down when they’re in there, right?

37:07

So you know it’s she’s become some pop now dr.

Byrne, a brown right?

Of course everybody refers to her stuff on this but I think the way she’d bottom lines at where shame and kind of an identity thing, it’s actually I am bad whereas guilt gets more to.

I’ve been something bad or you know I participate in something bad and how guilt can be a really positive motivator for growth but shame never help somebody grow.

37:29

You just kind of stuck in it.

I think that language was help for me because actually, I do think that shoe shame.

Is that identity word, right?

Like you start texting internalized as part of who I am and no, I’m sympathetic to it that I want to say some of these white on this in Mike.

I know this is a why you’re in a shame spiral but you’ve completely centered yourself if you’re ashamed by, right?

37:47

It’s all about you now, right?

It’s all about the feelings, you have like, my therapist will sometimes say, like, when you get deep into something, emotions flood, you, you can’t think clearly, right.

And so, it’s understandable.

It’s real, but you’re being so flooded by your own emotions that you’re completely unable to participate in the more important kind of work that has to happen.

38:05

So, I think that’s the I think we’ve got to make is to say this stuff is heavy, it’s hard.

But it’s conviction, right?

And conviction moves us to learn and see different and actively.

And if I stay in shame, even though I’m not doing it for this reason, I’m actually making it all about me.

And oh, poor my I can’t believe there’s no I don’t want to be right, I’m not trying to belittle it all like I’m talking my own experience, but don’t want to oversimplify shame, always requires some outside help to kind of break it but it’s a devastating kind of place to get stuck because we’re just so non-helpful to anything when we’re stuck in kind of Amis.

38:36

Answered shame, spiral.

Yeah, I’ve been learning just from even a lot of our asian brothers and sisters that, you know, that come from a shame culture.

But then so I’ve always thought negatively about shame and how it’s about, you know, Center in yourself.

38:54

But then there’s something that a friend of mine talk to me about about a collective shape and sometimes how Collective changing.

You know, when you think about Germany you think about The Holocaust there’s a collected Collective, shame that a majority of Germans have about the history of Nazism, you know, about that that history as so that Collective shame, which for us.

39:22

And you know, and when we think about this and the body of Christ of repentance and that you know, that conviction and repentance that conviction, that we feel, it moves us to this place of justice and so I think The systems that Germany has set up to kind of, you know, you can’t wave a Nazi flag, you know?

39:43

So there’s something to this, you know, sometimes Collective, shame can be beneficial.

Do you agree with that?

I think I, for sure, agree, with kind of what you’re getting to like, there’s some kind of a collective conscience, right?

I mean, the work Bryan Stevenson is doing around, you know, Truth and Reconciliation of the work Mark.

40:02

Charles doing around truth.

Conciliation ISO for sure.

Sure.

I do think this is just some of the challenges kind of work, right.

A certain terms.

Mean different things to different people.

Right.

They don’t have Universal meanings in this work.

And so so the cons of what you’re describing, I think for sure and I wouldn’t doubt that in some circles.

40:19

Shame would be the correct term to use to describe that reality.

I think in other circles, shame is got such a defined meaning, now that it’s just going to require a lot of work, just linguistically.

So, quite a lot of working for that words, the reality that you’re describing.

And so, I think that some of our challenge in this works to get find ways to grab the reality.

40:36

We’re trying to move to know that God would have us to move towards and figure out which words and terms help us get there and which ones have to be redefined or which was even at be changed.

So I certainly agree with the notion you’re talking about in the collective sense of lament Consciousness.

Shame if that’s the right word that means we’re telling the truth about where we’ve come from and what’s still tree.

40:55

I think that’s absolutely critical.

Yeah, that’s good.

Okay so this last question, And on page 152, you talk about Awakening white person.

And you know, I I know you mentioned where I know a lot of pastors are dealing with this, where you have someone that has been on this journey and they become frustrated in that environment that they’re in now.

41:23

So you have that situation.

And then you have the situation where people who have signed up and say Yes I want to be a part of a church that That has a value in a mission of reconciliation, but then when they get in this environment environment, they become undone in the midst of it.

41:41

And then also, you’ll have white flight.

So you have white flight happening for two different reasons.

One, when you want to be part of a Reconciliation church and said isn’t a mission, but when it becomes too difficult there’s why fight.

41:58

And then you have people when They become really frustrated inside of environment, you have white flight.

Can you kind of speak to that?

You kind of talked about a little bit and Awakening white person, I think page 150 a little bit.

42:17

So I think it was found her two cents in kid.

Can you tell me the question that you tell me the question again like specifically, which part of that you want me to just speaking to people who are actually in an environment and where white flight is happening?

You know, how do you what what encouragement do you have for white people that are in an environment where there’s reconciliation going on and it’s difficult.

42:42

Yeah, I see you have for them.

Here’s a little bit newer to this to the person who’s like seeking to become part of that or to the white that leadership of over there, which one are you asking?

Like person person is Seeking a congregation on them.

Yeah.

I think this probably comes back as some things we’ve talked about to me, the two, just the absolute essential ingredients would be humility.

43:06

And resiliency, I would say, I think there has to be humanly not only in our own learning jerker, but sometimes things don’t go the way you wish or sometimes, there’s just things that just, I think requires a humble spirit.

And then, I think the resiliency piece just is so cute.

43:21

I think there’s got to be at some point.

There has to be a deep deep conversion happens that this stuff is non-negotiable, and that I’m just not going to Walk away.

There’s some things we use in art in our churches.

Like you just can’t walk away from the table, like when your feelings get hurt, or when something gets mirrored back to you, and it’s a real loss when somebody walks away from the table, of course, happens still I guess what this would open up on that conversation.

43:47

But just to say a word on it, I do think what’s the best way to I do?

Think there should be a little bit of a testing process of who’s ready for the deeper conversations, right?

Like I think we shouldn’t be Reckless with letting people all the way into that table right away.

44:03

Like I actually see in this little bit of a different angle of will you ask?

But I single most important pastoral functions is to be protective of the people of color who have a call of reconciliation on their lives.

And then, to be a bit of a gate, Keeper for the white folks who say that they’re interested in this stuff.

I wanted to feel like in the early days with this doesn’t have much emotional wreck.

44:22

When the early days, there’s actually a reputation at why people weren’t welcome to River City which was unfortunate.

That’s not that should not of that, they, that, that reflects poorly on my communication.

I think I’ve gotten better at is saying you’re all welcome, but until you’re serious about this, we had to be protective of the people that you’re going to include in your own process and there needs to be some demonstration of seriousness to this stuff, you know?

44:44

Because Just not worth the cost to those who are going to walk with them in that Journey.

So I think there’s an element of that to write.

Like I think we need to demonstrate that were serious about this before, people are asked, you know, to give it themselves even eat on our behalf for our own, educational journey.

45:01

And what advice would you have for people of color who are listening to this and we’ll get to.

Well, ask that question at the end or white brothers and sisters, but what advice would you have to people of color?

Or who are in this, they’re they’re frustrated, they’re tired, you know, a lot of times what bridge-building you’re getting walked on from both sides.

45:25

You’re trying to deal with your own personal trauma and then you’re also trying to educate.

So, you know, you feel like you’re being stretched very thin and you know a lot of people you know, self care is an issue, you know so many things.

45:40

What advice would you give to people of color that are in this work?

Let’s see, the such an important question, but I feel like that would be so over reaching a me to try to answer for person of color.

How to do self care when I’m coming at this from a privileged position.

So I appreciate the question.

45:56

I think the only thing I say is, thank you.

Thank you for taking chances on a sometimes because I think there’s work, white people need to do that should know about people of color, but there does come a point for some of us who are white, like I desperately needed a few folks to invest in my journey and to bleed on my behalf.

46:11

And I think it’s crazy to even have to have asked that of them.

But I I also couldn’t have continued on this journey.

So I’m thankful to people like you who do this and cheering you on as you help folks know how to be healthy in that.

But I would feel that’s good.

46:29

No, that’s good.

That’s really good, you know, like you know, I think one of the things we have to realize that it’s, you know, sometimes we can be demanding of people of color in this work.

And the thing is, it’s an honor to have people of color willing to lead in this work.

46:45

And I think, You to treat it as that.

Well, it’s an honor to be invited.

My black female friends, and I was really in this journey, she was a pastor and I asked her just something.

I was trying to sort out racial and she just gonna quickly started.

Crying, she had never done that.

When we talk about this and of course I went, I said heard myself.

47:00

I said, oh, no, that I say it not quite right that I say the wrong thing.

What could I have done it?

Then she said, no, no, it’s not.

This is not about you should.

I think you understand this.

I am walking with you, as you learn to see this stuff, but oftentimes, I get re-traumatized by things, I’m sharing, like this isn’t just, you know, Like I’m reliving these things, I’m teaching you.

47:17

So I’ll do it for your thing but I just want you to see what you’re asking them.

What’s to you?

Just a routine question to me can bring back like really hard memories and like that stuck with me.

Like it is an honor and I have to see.

Like, I’m actually often inflicting pain on somebody when they participate in my journey and then I want to Steward that carefully and, you know, and make it work while I’m going to ask that.

47:40

Absolutely, yeah, so I think the awareness of knowing when you’re draining someone No, I don’t like where sometimes you need to as a person.

If you’re, if you’re being educated by someone, you also should be pouring into their self-care to, you know, I think that’s a way where you do Center yourself.

47:59

We’re understanding that this is coming with a cause you know, for that person polar and and then invest in them and their self care and understanding when they don’t want to talk about.

Every situation that happens, they don’t want to get a text from.

48:15

Every time so I think that’s really good.

But let’s let’s take a few questions from sorry.

Give me one second but as we will talk about a few more questions but we’re going to just take a few questions from people and then we’ll kind of close it out with maybe Daniel given us some you know giving like some advice too.

48:46

Our white brothers and sisters as they continue to want me to touch on the whiteness 101.

The, oh, he’s back.

Never mind even at the end, we’ll make sure that we supposed to do that.

49:04

So Daniel, let’s see.

Elizabeth has a maybe questions here, maybe just maybe one or two of those or we’ll see what we have time for.

Let’s start with this.

Suburban churches and they are wondering what they do.

49:24

What do they encourage their pastors to do?

What would your advice be on that?

I think it’s important.

Really great question.

And try to say this fast.

I actually think we have we have we cared more about diversity than we should and we don’t care about dismantling race as much as we should.

49:45

And so, I think we reverse those and so and actually I think is We do this too.

So here’s what I mean by that, I think creating Multicultural multi-ethnic space is just complicated.

There’s no question about that.

And if you look just at multi-ethnic spaces, it’s a good conversation.

50:02

Have, it’s hard to have different cultures together.

It’s hard to learn from different norms and experiences, but that’s very different than tackling the system of race.

And the system of race is a social construct, which is its own whole conversation.

50:17

I realize, but it’s a social contract, IE not created by God created human beings, right?

It’s not very old, the grand scheme of things.

Probably, 400 years old and it’s created literally to assign human value to people, right?

That is the purpose of a system of race is to say, your value as a human being determined by, where you fall on the racial spectrum and so Christians should be the first one.

50:38

This is so sad, it’s secular society is much more advanced idea with race than the churches.

The church should be the lead because it’s a profoundly.

Like I’m gonna actually use the word demonic Enterprises demonic because it’s built on a lie.

It’s built on a lie that you were worth is not From the Imago Dei for being created God’s image.

It comes from the racial Monica, right?

50:56

So the church amount of front lines applying theology to this saying here is, why the very system we all abide by is an absolute affront to the heart of God.

And here’s the weird thing, sometimes the hardest space to talk about that is in multi-ethnic settings.

51:12

As you spend so much work on trying to balance this carefully, constructed ecosystem.

And so I think the ideals to marry them together like I I think it’s ideal if multi-ethnic spaces are talking about race because you’re better position to talk about it.

But honestly, if I was talking to White a white church, you to pick from trying to build the most epic space or build a culture that can honestly, talk about the system of race, I would way rather a white church.

51:36

Develop Theology and vocabulary around what race is and why it’s so diabolical and demonic like that would go so much further and Society to have white people who understand both social entrepreneur and more importantly, theologically why it’s Somatic.

And so, I think we’ve, I think we’ve created kind of think are almost like that.

51:56

Multi-ethnic is where we need to go there sometime, okay, big spaces that are cool but aren’t really doing anything around race, you know, and so it’s not an end in and of itself.

Like the end I think is proclaiming God’s truth towards the kind of demonic reality of the system of Grace.

So, that’s right, say I think last one thing on this, but I think it’s important.

52:12

I think the typical white person who’s wrestling with this stuff underestimates.

How unwilling their church is even have a basic conversation about what race is I think I think we think just saying stuff like this is should be easy.

White churches don’t talk about this stuff because when they do, there’s a ferocious kind of response by white Cardigans and that would be a huge Endeavor forward, if White Church could just have open conversations around why race is.

52:38

So diabolical just simply be able to tell the truth and why that’s a lie would be a huge step forward, but it probably because the I can’t think of a way church.

That’s honestly, talk about this stuff and didn’t lose some folks.

Right.

So it’s like I wish I could give a better pep talk now but it is a count.

The cost kind of a thing.

52:54

Like it’s so deeply ingrained in our psyches that when you call it out for what it is there is negative reaction in the white community and it’s not just the white canoe that happens elsewhere too but it’s most pronounced with the white community.

So I think just being able to name truth and lies.

If somebody could start, there would be a huge step forward in their Church context.

53:13

That’s a real quick 30.

Second answered question to follow up on that.

Sure if I can do it in 30 of it.

You can see, I’m fine.

Therefore project that they white pastors, speak out to actually utter the words, white supremacy in front of their congregation.

53:33

Do you see talking about race for white pastors as something?

That’s just some pastors are called to that?

Or is this do you see?

Is there some kind of issue with white pastors staying silent?

Because I don’t feel like that’s, that’s their issue, it’s their thing.

53:51

Yeah, I mean Jesus fundamental to find, discipleship, right?

As pick up your cross and follow me, right?

Right in the cross is an instrument of death, right?

I be, I mean, I think that there’s a deeper need a theological problem in that.

We don’t have geology that addresses.

This that’s actually where I’m continued in white circles.

54:06

That’s actually what’s the most basic kind of thing.

People are going, I never saw in scriptures before and like, how did you never see?

But that’s an endemic problem.

And, you know, and I think there’s a history around that, right, I think we dodged around theologically to justify colonialism and justify slavery, and we’re still paying the price for that.

54:22

So, so I would say it’s an absolute gospel issue.

I think how Respond that can there can be difference there.

You know what it means for a particular reason.

I think there’s any difference there, proclaiming the sinfulness of the system of race is an absolute gospel.

Playing.

I don’t think, I don’t know how you can seek first the kingdom of God and not deal with race in the, in this day and age.

54:40

It’s just, I don’t even think it’s literally not possible to seek asking, repeat that one more time.

Say that last in it.

See how you can say that again, this is seek first, the kingdom of God, right?

You, you cannot pray.

Thy kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven without dealing with race.

54:58

You cannot seek first, the kingdom of God without confronting the system breaks.

It is impossible.

So, yeah, I would, I would absolutely say if somebody ever talk about this their church, it’s an income.

It’s an incomplete gospel.

They are not talking about the game of God, in this day and age.

There’s no way they could be without dealing with Grace in the church said.

55:18

Amen.

That’s good.

Do you have time?

We have well, we have like three minutes before we have to To get off.

Elizabeth.

Do we have one more?

Or we can just is there one quick one.

Yeah, what?

55:34

So, it’s if you know a lot of People are starting to have conversations with their friends and their circles and when the hardest places they’re coming up against having these conversations is with family.

So just like to hear about your experiences or any advice you have to offer white people who are they’re waking up to this to the reality surrounding race.

55:53

And they’re trying to talk to their families and those are much more complicated relationships, how do you go about having really difficult conversations with family members on this topic?

How have you done that?

It’s not easy.

I mean it’s certainly been my experience as well.

Yeah, this is not something that the rest of my family is deeply into with.

56:12

It’s a very nice way to say it but trying to be perfect in the watch this broadcast.

So I think that there’s there’s a couple different things to it from.

It’s always easy to just move away from people.

Don’t agree with us but again in a weird way is kind of centering ourselves.

56:30

We actually think we’re being woke.

When we kind of distance ourselves from the people who we see as a regressive on This.

That’s why she sent her ourselves because we don’t want to have to deal with the fatigue of having sit at the table with them.

And so, I would also say, I said the other aspect of it is society needs, those kind of white people, to shift on this.

56:47

We need people to move and it’s an impossible.

Ask ask people of color coming to our family Circles, of be the ones who try to move the needle.

That’s so self-righteous.

Not that they’re thinking that were the Messiah that, but we have to stick with it.

Are the people in our circles and just sometimes, I just means being quiet.

57:05

Mints a grown man that just burned me, sometimes.

That’s going to a dinner that you don’t want to go too.

Sometimes it’s stepping in when you’re a peacemaker and you don’t want to step in, I don’t want to be super formulate but I think staying present and being engaged, I think it’s something we have to do for the larger Movement.

57:21

We have to keep saying, president spaces and hoping and I say one of the things this schema we just did a series of the book of Acts it at our church.

And some of the jumped out to me with its never jumped out to me before.

You know, the Apostle Saul Saul, you know goes to this huge conversion, right?

That’s very It’s in there.

One of things that stood out to me is the fact that apart from a supernatural act of God, he was never going to change, right?

57:42

Yeah, absolutely dug in, right?

And it was from a religious perspective is dug in.

It wasn’t outside.

He was certain, he was on the right side and we can all see you was on the wrong side, but he was certainly on the right side, it, what?

No conversation was going to change it, right?

It wasn’t until Jesus Christ.

57:57

Supernaturally said, you’re on the wrong side of this that he changed.

So I do think I don’t say this is like some kind of a church, the answer.

I think prayer is a huge piece.

To this too, right?

We need Supernatural Revelation.

There are people who are certain there on the right side and they’re not, they’re on the wrong side, but it’s not gonna matter how many conversations it’s going to need God to change them.

58:15

So I think there’s a Revival of all my weight on my white Christians want a Revival.

They just understand what it means.

Is that these repent white supremacy before the revivals going to happen, right?

I think it’s just LOL that, you know, we talked about this.

58:36

Also in the guy when we talk about reconciliation, we talk about, you know, the process of reparation, restoration and reproduction.

And in that, you know, through that process of reconciliation, we will have Revival, but there’s not going to be any Revival, but that record reconciliation, you know?

58:57

And so that’s, that’s a good point.

And so before we end just one thing, what?

You know, we have a lot of white people in our be debris group.

This, this we’re doing it on our Facebook page, so that it can be shared because when we do cases like this, if you’re be the bridge group, we can’t share them outside.

59:22

And so a lot of times people want to share this with your pastors, or with their family members posted on their page.

And so we do it outside of the be the bridge group so that people can share.

But within the bead, the Each group, we have a lot of people in predominantly white people and so what advice?

59:39

Just just some just some quick advice that you would.

If you could share a last word with our white brothers and sisters that are in this work that are listening that have pulled up a chair and you know they’re saying, Lord changed me.

59:58

What would you say to them?

I use the prayer that gets repeated by so many different people.

The New Testament by the blind folks who say Lord help me to see.

I think we have to see how to pack it us.

Personally, how we can understand ourselves The Narrative of racial difference and the ideology white supremacy, I think we have to be we have to keep doing interrogation or how it’s affecting the way we see other people and then that The Graduate level work I think is learning how to see how this narrative has shaped social systems in the way that it’s kind of created this kind of imbalance and unequal and devastating kind of reality.

1:00:27

Every single social sector.

I think the cool thing about seeing is once you’ve seen something, you can’t really see it.

It’s not just about a list of do the right thing because once you see something, you cannot see it anymore.

No.

But but then there’s more to see right?

And so we need the spirit of God will lead us.

We need are those who are willing to invest in our process that are not white to help us a see it.

1:00:45

I think if we just keep following that thread like Lord help me to see that which I don’t see.

You know, it’ll take us continue to take us in a new territory well on behalf of this black sister right here.

I want to thank Thank you for writing this book.

1:01:02

I know it was probably difficult and I know you’ve had, you know, had to face backlash with, you know, just speaking out and standing in that truth.

You know, I know a lot of pastors who are in this, you know, their churches don’t grow like everyone else’s church is growing, you know, because they really, they’re counting the cost of what this mean and they’re really truly living out the gospel.

1:01:27

I’m so I want to say thank you for creating a Tool to educate, you know, our brothers and sisters, so that we can really, really do this work of conciliation and what that look what that can look like.

1:01:45

And you know what that can mean for the body of Christ.

So I want to thank you for being courageous.

Thank you for not giving up and, you know, thank you for.

I’m just leaving in and not letting the conversation about out culture, not knowing something, stifle you or take you out of the conversation, but it charged you to step into the conversation.

1:02:09

So thank you, brother has been great speaking with you.

Thank you for listening to this.

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